Group source files with same BWF/iXML timecode in to takes

[airon]

This is the discussion thread for the request:

Group source files with same BWF/iXML timecode in to takes

Add audio files to existing items as takes, if they have the same timecode stamp

The request originated from the thread Calling all Dialogue/Production Sound editors.

Vote for it here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=5228

It is replicated below :

Discuss the request in this thread

Premise

Sound for a show is recorded on multiple tracks, with the first track being a live downmix of the others.

The poly WAV, or multi-mono WAV files each have a timestamp, usually in the BWF chunk, and often in an iXML chunk(external recorders use that a lot). Often the "Sound Roll" field is utilized to keep recording days or sections apart too.

This downmix track is used by the video editors to cut the show, be it a documentary, music piece, film, tv show, interview or other stuff.

Problem

How to you get the other tracks in to this session without having to line everything up by hand ?

Video editors almost always use a single mono track, the downmix audio of the recordings, to cut the show. If the recordings came in as a multichannel WAV file(Poly WAV), the audio is often split in to multiple mono files before being used by the video editor.

Solution

Add other recorded tracks as takes to existing items.

The session from the video editor uses audio that has a timecode stamp, identical to the timecode stamp in the other mono WAV files. They may differ in filename, but the timecode stamps are identical. Often they also have a sound roll description as well, which makes it even easier to fine these files.

Reaper can do this like so :

• The user selects the items for which other files should be added as takes.
  
  
• Reaper checks the timestamps in selected items in the project bay or media explorer
  
  
• The user is asked to point to directory with original recorder files that contains the other tracks, or perhaps ask the user to indicate which files should be scanned for the timecodes in the project bay. The user could prepare one project bay per sound roll for example.
  
  
• Reaper compares timecodes and optionally sound roll fields("TAPE" field in the iXML description) in the BWF chunk and/or iXML chunk, and adds the files as takes to the relevant files with the correct offset and all.
  
  
• Happy user.

[analogexplosions]

Voted!

Hope this gains some ground sooner than later. It'll make my life exponentially easier.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by airon

The session from the video editor uses audio that has a timecode stamp, identical to the timecode stamp in the other mono WAV files.

I don't want to derail the thread too much since I think this is a great request, but I'm curios as to what kind of project files you are getting from picture editors where the audio still contains the original timestamp from the recorder. Usually by the time the files for a project get to me, all the original metadata has been stripped from the audio in the process of exporting an OMF/AAF. I would love it if you could point me towards a workflow where all the metadata was preserved in my reaper project.

[analogexplosions]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

I don't want to derail the thread too much since I think this is a great request, but I'm curios as to what kind of project files you are getting from picture editors where the audio still contains the original timestamp from the recorder. Usually by the time the files for a project get to me, all the original metadata has been stripped from the audio in the process of exporting an OMF/AAF. I would love it if you could point me towards a workflow where all the metadata was preserved in my reaper project.

I've had it happen ONCE. The project was delivered as a FCP-XML which went into AATranslator and out to Reaper. All files kept their metadata!

OMF/AAF should just go ahead and disappear.

This whole process would be so much easier if editors would stop renaming their audio files and stop trying to do a rough mix and just edit off the field recorder mixdown rather than trying to be a hero and making a mess of things! If Reaper had Airon's FR implemented AND editors adhered to this workflow, imagine how clean our sessions could be!

[Runaway]

Originally Posted by analogexplosions

OMF/AAF should just go ahead and disappear.

The world would be such a better place

[airon]

This kind of thing is done a LOT in Protools 7.2(I think, according to a CAS discussion I watched) HD/CPTK and up. It's called Recorder Workflows there.

You toss all the files from the recorders in to the region/clip bin. Then select the production sound files in the timeline, right-click and ... well there it is then, and it adds the other stuff on its own tracks. It was error prone, or sometimes produces a thousand tracks(1 per file at times), but it's working rather well now.

A friend of mine did his last dialogue edits this way and saved massive amounts of time because of this function. Plodding through hundreds or thousands of recordings, hunting for the right filename, studying reports(which you should in any case) and matching the position by hand can be fun, but usually it ain't.

And yeah, the original timecode embedded in the audio files in the timeline is the deciding factor. That is then used to match the recorder files.


Other products that help along these lines are all aimed at Protools, like Assemblerator or Titan.

It does however seem like a simple function to implement. Check timecodes, match timecodes (and optionally sound rolls/tape names) from a selected set of files and add those mofos as takes.

One could even use this function to flash import GIGANTIC projects to the correct position in the timeline. Place files on the first track correctly, then just have Reaper match in the rest as takes and explode those to other tracks.

While this may be specific to timecode-oriented shoots, I'm sure users would get creative in using this function pretty quickly.

[analogexplosions]

From what I remember from previous experiences, OMF/AAF strips metadata from the original audio files if it is exported as an embedded OMF/AAF. I think if it is exported as a LINKED OMF, it will just reference the original audio. OMF's are regularly delivered to us as embedded, so i'm guessing either editors like this so there is one clean file to send, or maybe FCP doesn't export LINKED OMF/AAF's... I have no clue. I'm just a sound man.

I'd love to find out for sure so that if/when this FR gets implemented, I can send the editor a spec sheet for deliverables requirements. (i.e. if working in FCPX/7, send an XML, if anything else, LINKED OMF, and don't touch anything else).

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by analogexplosions

From what I remember from previous experiences, OMF/AAF strips metadata from the original audio files if it is exported as an embedded OMF/AAF. I think if it is exported as a LINKED OMF, it will just reference the original audio.

This is correct. Embedded OMFs consolidate each individual audio clip in the timeline into a new file devoid of metadata. Unfortunately this is the only type of OMF that FCP7 is capable of creating. FCPX isn't even capable of making OMFs at all, but I've yet to encounter a project that's actually been edited in FCPX.

Avid Media Composer is the only picture editing program I know of that's capable of creating a linked OMF/AAF that references the original audio files. Adobe Premiere can also create linked OMFs, but from what I can tell they don't actually reference the original audio. Instead Premiere re-exports all the audio (of course stripping away the meta-data) and throws it into a new folder to be delivered with the OMF.

From time to time I've had the pleasure of receiving an honest to god linked AAF from an Avid system, but even that comes with it's own headache: AATranslator does not play nice with Media Composer AAFs, which means I have to go through the hassle of opening the AAF in Pro-Tools, saving it as a PTX, and using that file as an intermediary between AAT and Reaper. This is pretty much the only reason I even bother keeping a Pro-Tools system around anymore.

[Runaway]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

From time to time I've had the pleasure of receiving an honest to god linked AAF from an Avid system, but even that comes with it's own headache: AATranslator does not play nice with Media Composer AAFs, which means I have to go through the hassle of opening the AAF in Pro-Tools, saving it as a PTX, and using that file as an intermediary between AAT and Reaper. This is pretty much the only reason I even bother keeping a Pro-Tools system around anymore.

Seriously?
When you say 'headache' you are not even close
I thought to myself 'self - you need to nail these pesky Avid MC AAFs'. So I have spent about the last 4 or 5 days pretty much flat out on trying to nail them.

So after a couple of days I was feeling pretty chuffed - got a couple of embedded MC AAFs working perfectly - even when they have several 'composition' mobs (don't ask) and then I tried a reference one - WTF?

Different again!

You are kidding me right?

There is still some bourbon left in this bottle - I can do this I thought.

What was I thinking?

These damn things change from version to version!
Every time I think I have the pattern - it's different for another version.

The thing is there is actually no need for these things to be this complicated and there is no way this is for anyone else's benefit other than Avid IMO

It is easy to see why not all AAFs can be guaranteed of being read by any daw other than an Avid one

Our next release will have some MC AAF improvements but just how broad a user base they affect I can't be sure at this point.

So apart from thinking that Avid are pretty lucky Australia has such tight gun controls I'm pretty much over Avid (until next time I try)

Sigh.......

[Runaway]

Originally Posted by airon

Solution

Add other recorded tracks as takes to existing items.

The session from the video editor uses audio that has a timecode stamp, identical to the timecode stamp in the other mono WAV files. They may differ in filename, but the timecode stamps are identical. Often they also have a sound roll description as well, which makes it even easier to fine these files.

Reaper can do this like so :

• The user selects the items for which other files should be added as takes.
  
  
• Reaper checks the timestamps in selected items in the project bay or media explorer
  
  
• The user is asked to point to directory with original recorder files that contains the other tracks, or perhaps ask the user to indicate which files should be scanned for the timecodes in the project bay. The user could prepare one project bay per sound roll for example.
  
  
• Reaper compares timecodes and optionally sound roll fields("TAPE" field in the iXML description) in the BWF chunk and/or iXML chunk, and adds the files as takes to the relevant files with the correct offset and all.
  
  
• Happy user.

I'm sure this seems way simpler than what we were working on and a relatively easy thing to do but maybe there is something I'm not reading between the lines?

Probably best you email me directly

[airon]

What would the product you're working on be doing ? Keep it in broad strokes if you wish. I'll email you directly if you do not wish to discuss it just yet.

I'm certainly interested.

[Runaway]

What we were working on was way more detailed compared to what you are outlining.

I think (and I'm no expert here that is for sure) that you have painted a very simple picture and as already pointed out there are limitations.

Your 'solution' is not a difficult thing to put together (but please don't interpret that as it takes no time to do) and I'm happy to try and allocate some of my team's resources to putting something together for you.

Anyway, this is JL's field of expertise so I will try and get him to email you directly.

[airon]

Give it some thought but keep in mind that this is a chicken/egg problem. It might take a while for editors to show up and use Reaper for workflows like this.

That's why I'm asking for this simpler function from Cockos first.

We'll see what you gents have to say on the workload this creates.

[John Lundsten]

Airon I have put together some details of what is in our minds as to a Conform program. I'd like to send it to you, but can't for the life of me work out how to send a PM with an enclosure

JL

[mrlimbic]

So this request is basically this feature from the avid video below.

https://vimeo.com/58034772#t=3065s

This all seems totally scriptable in reaper to me, assuming you haven't lost metadata along the way.

It's not so far off my 'add alternative takes' script idea which borrows metadata from the NLE.

https://vimeo.com/126955784

[airon]

Deserves a bump. Just had a fellow user inquire about this.

That's a fine script.

[mrlimbic]

Originally Posted by airon

Deserves a bump. Just had a fellow user inquire about this.

That's a fine script.

Me and x-raym already did some of the background work to make this possible. There is now a Lua BWF/bext/iXML metadata handling library that can be used. It now just needs a front end on top so you can set your search criteria and apply the findings. I've just pinged him to see if he did anymore since. The idea was it would end up in a premium post production related script pack.

[X-Raym]

This problem can indeed be solved via scripting.


Here is a demo:





As you can see, only files with same TimeRef and Originaiton date are imported as new take of selected ones.
(the demo doesn't show user input for folder but there is one).

[mrlimbic]

Originally Posted by X-Raym

This problem can indeed be solved via scripting.

Here is a demo:



As you can see, only files with same TimeRef and Originaiton date are imported as new take of selected ones.
(the demo doesn't show user input for folder but there is one).

Nice. Getting closer then.

[airon]

If I was doing regular dialogue edits, I’d pay good money for this.

[eske]

looks great,
would it handle polyfiles also?
so each channel goes on a new track.

and selections/slices/cuts of tracks?
say i want to change microphone for one sentence. then i cut on each side of the sentence. press the magic button and get to choose from the 8 channels that where recorded in the polyfile?
i want just those few seconds visible, staying on the same track. maybe sort of like drum replacement?

[X-Raym]

@eske
Handling file section is easy.


I prefer the script to work on selected items than creating new items on child track. I guess your files have a metadata field to say what channel they should be ?

[eske]

Yes metadata has both track number and names(if you name the tracks in your recorder)
https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T0...gent_meta.jpeg

[Luster]

Oh wow. I searched some time ago for recorder workflow like FRs but didn't find this one.

+1 from my side. If the scripts can do the job like a native solution I would pay for sure for that.

[bourzia]

Any word on this?

[mrlimbic]

Originally Posted by eske

Yes metadata has both track number and names(if you name the tracks in your recorder)
https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T0...gent_meta.jpeg

iXML only names channels, so they will come out mono, unless you develop some naming convention to combine them into groups.

This drove me crazy with concert multitrack files in FCPX (which uses the iXML to name things when imported). 32 channels but no way to say tell it they are all related!

EDIT: BWF is about to be superceded by BW64/ADM (audio definition model) which has a lot more capabilities than bext or iXML. The libraries are open source, so maybe Cockos could integrate it, or add functionality to SWS extensions?

https://github.com/IRT-Open-Source/libadm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publication...model-software

[airon]

That new library gives Cockos the chance to integrate more meta data management in to the media explorer and project bay.

I‘m certain an open standard with open libraries will be supported by middleware at some point.

Mass writing of meta data back in to WAV files will be necessary. Writing metadata in to renders will be necessary. Searching for metadata will be necessary.

[X-Raym]

How close is the script I showcased to be usable for you all workflow ?


Do you really needs as many options as the Pro Tools Field Recorded Channels match criteria window ?


Do you need select folder pop up or could it work from source file directory ?

[X-Raym]

Hi,


Just to be clear on https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=18,


The script works by comparing Originator Date and Originator Time and Timecode of the active take to take of a folder

Then it is able to insert matching files as new take, and do the Take Offset / rate adjustment if needed.


What does it miss to be usable by a majority of user ?

(I imagine different users have different metadata needs ?)

[X-Raym]

Here is an attempt to replicate ProTools window (but with a bit less feature for know, cause I'll focus on most used fields to be sure the core is working right)




This works on iXML fields.


What do you think ?


(per default it open a browser window to choose where to look for files, deactivated for the screen capture).

[Fox_Audio]

Originally Posted by X-Raym

Here is an attempt to replicate ProTools window (but with a bit less feature for know, cause I'll focus on most used fields to be sure the core is working right)




This works on iXML fields.


What do you think ?


(per default it open a browser window to choose where to look for files, deactivated for the screen capture).

Just awesome! When did you release this script?

[mrlimbic]

Originally Posted by X-Raym

Here is an attempt to replicate ProTools window (but with a bit less feature for know, cause I'll focus on most used fields to be sure the core is working right)

Your example actually does something the PT feature can't do. You are finding takes that are shot at different times, not conforming to a take shot at same time. PT assumes you always want to match timecode but for word replacement from an alternative take you definitely don't want to match timecode, only scene, because they are likely to contain the same dialogue, but not same audio. For repairing a mispronounced word or one that had a background noise ruining it, stealing a word from another take is very useful but a pain to find manually.

[X-Raym]

@Fox Audio
Glad you like it ! Not released yet, I was hoping to get a bit more feedbacks to evaluate how much interest such script has (maybe have sponsor) :P


I also had to do high priority scripts but now I should be able to release it soon. Ill tell you !

[X-Raym]

Hi everyone,


So I wait a bit to evaluate how much users could benefit from it,


I think we all have enough waited, it was already ready public release/testing, I made a custom pack for it:

ReaScripts: iXML Metadata Pack




Thanks for supporting my scripts dev,


and if there is few things to fix, of course I'll take care of that :P

Thanks for sharing this link to anyone who might be interested in it

Cheers !

(other iXML actions could be imagined of course, please PM me in this case !)

[BenK-msx]

hi quick question -

if i have LTC recorded audio onto one channel of video file(s), is there a tool currently available that will allow me to align those video file(s) with an LTC track in reaper?


i intend to record whole tuition sessons in reaper start to finish + make occasional video recordings, that i then want to easily syncronise with the high quality audio when i import video.

recording timecode onto the video seems a way to achieve this IF i can later align to timecode on import.

you guys seem to be the ones to ask! cheers

[airon]

Most video editors have some way to sync up video footage to existing audio. Premiere has that built in as far as I know. DaVinci Resolve might not yet.

LTC was always a live tc thing, to sync machines up in a live setting or slave machines when doing transfers 20-30 years ago. That's pretty much the only thing it's for.

If you're doing video as well, you're MUCH better off getting a bunch of little clock addons that you sync up twice a day, and recording to cameras that timestamp the video.

Audio recorders with TC inputs are cheap to rent and to buy these days. That LTC method may be a bad bet. The timestamp method is what's used in modern production of just about everything. Lockits are one brand, but there are many others.


To sum up, the cheapest method is syncing up with a software tool like Premiere or whatever else. The most efficient method is using little clock boxes that output TC which is then fed to the cameras and/or sound recorders TC input.

I'd investigate the first method, then the second. Then again, perhaps someone knows of tools to sync up media to LTC timecode.

[BenK-msx]

Cheers airon -

I'd seen a method whereby recording tc audio to a (regular) cam track could be synced after the fact using a 3rd party utility that isn't cheap that reads the TC and embeds what it finds into the file. I figured the tech to analyze wasn't that complex and reaper be ripe for doing it..

Have looked into tc boxes -

tho am sort of leaning towards simply having a big physical accurate clock 'in shot' ( I remember our music college used them often for weird live pieces structured using time ) making lining up short video clips down at random times to a single long audio recording a little easier -

As ideally need as little friction to do that as possible and dont want to Interupt things to be a human clapper etc every time.

Will figure something !

[airon]

The Lockits and others are like those old Big Ben clocks, just portable.

They sync the devices they feed, so the sound recorder does not drift away from the camera or visa versa.

That's the big fuck up that happens with free wheeling devices on shoots of more than a few seconds length. They drift. Those clocking devices are dead cheap to rent as well, and even simpler to sync up before starting to shoot. Most film sets sync them up at lunch again.

The most intense test for such devicees are likely reality tv shoots and live events where the cameras are not cabled up. I'd look what solutions those guys use.

[mrlimbic]

I get the impression though that they were trying hack something similar without needing TC compatible gear.

A lot of consumer gear is pretty high quality these days but can't necessarily sync to a lockit. And doesn't necessarily stamp timecode in the footage (just the file time).

There are also apps that sync audio to camera files like pluraleyes if you can't do it within an NLE for whatever reason.

[airon]

Plural Eyes is what I used in Premiere six years ago. I wasn‘t sure it still existed or hadn‘t been bought by Adobe or Apple.