Tempo mapping and manipulation with SWS

[spk77]

Originally Posted by Breeder

The problem seemed to be in a fact that while editing notes, they changed their id's due to change in their position.
So now I cache everything and not just positions, a bit slower but oh well...

edit: there doesn't seem a way to move that last CC123 to right position by API (except editing chunk?) :/ we should definitely report this.

I had to do chunk editing in ReaChorder-script (auto resize item -thingy) to move CC123 to the end. I don't know if MIDI_SetCC and/or MIDI_DeleteCC would help.

[hamish]

Originally Posted by Breeder

edit: there doesn't seem a way to move that last CC123 to right position by API (except editing chunk?) :/ we should definitely report this.

Interesting to see this ol' CC123 rearing it's ugly head here, It is/was/has been obviously used to code the item end position line in the GUI, but has disappeared and popped up in a very unpredictable way for me in sequences for years. I'm really bad at reporting bugs... : (

[Shippo]

Thanks guys, this is really useful.

Added bonus - no stems coming down from the tempo markers!

[Zeigarnik22]

Earlier in this thread there was mention of some strange behavior with Midi items when editing tempo markers. Came across something like that, thought I'd mention it.

I've been trying to find a way to edit earlier sections of a tempo map without having the Midi items past that point fall apart. Ignoring tempo isn't practical in this case as it would remove valid tempo data. The virtual Midi cable trick mentioned earlier seems to work, but not very practical. The python script with same intent I wasn't quite able to get working.

I made a screen-capture of the strange behavior, but it seems large in filesize (600kb) so I'll just link rather than embed here. https://stash.reaper.fm/21125/reaper_recording.gif

I've made an empty project, with timebase set to time for both items/tempo. Then I put in a few tempo markers in and a few Midi notes. Afterwards duplicating the Midi item. On one of the two midi items I set item timebase to 'Time' and the other is left as 'project default timebase'. It seems the one forced to 'Time' is behaving how I would like, in that tempo changes before the Midi item aren't moving it around. It also allows tempo markers past the point where the midi item begins to control it's grid.

Is this intentional? I would have thought since the project timebase is set to 'time' that that would mean that Midi items with 'project default timebase' would also be using 'time'. Hope some of that made sense.

Cheers.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by benbenben6

Earlier in this thread there was mention of some strange behavior with Midi items when editing tempo markers. Came across something like that, thought I'd mention it.

I've been trying to find a way to edit earlier sections of a tempo map without having the Midi items past that point fall apart. Ignoring tempo isn't practical in this case as it would remove valid tempo data. The virtual Midi cable trick mentioned earlier seems to work, but not very practical. The python script with same intent I wasn't quite able to get working.

I made a screen-capture of the strange behavior, but it seems large in filesize (600kb) so I'll just link rather than embed here. https://stash.reaper.fm/21125/reaper_recording.gif

I've made an empty project, with timebase set to time for both items/tempo. Then I put in a few tempo markers in and a few Midi notes. Afterwards duplicating the Midi item. On one of the two midi items I set item timebase to 'Time' and the other is left as 'project default timebase'. It seems the one forced to 'Time' is behaving how I would like, in that tempo changes before the Midi item aren't moving it around. It also allows tempo markers past the point where the midi item begins to control it's grid.

Is this intentional? I would have thought since the project timebase is set to 'time' that that would mean that Midi items with 'project default timebase' would also be using 'time'. Hope some of that made sense.

Cheers.

Item and tempo timebase should be beat.

[X-Raym]

Midi items are a bit particular.

You have to do the following :

1. right click on the item
2. source properties
3. ignore project tempo

I advice you to build a button for this.
Action : SWS/BR: enable "ignore project tempo" for selected media items (use tempo at item's start)


(don't forget to set project to Time)

[Garrick]

Originally Posted by X-Raym

Midi items are a bit particular.

You have to do the following :

1. right click on the item
2. source properties
3. ignore project tempo

I advice you to build a button for this.
Action : SWS/BR: enable "ignore project tempo" for selected media items (use tempo at item's start)

This works for when you build a tempo map while you have a midi item in the project, but things become very very fiddly when adjusting a tempo map later. Unless of course i'm doing something wrong

[X-Raym]

@Garrick

Hmmm I don't know, the thing is to know when to set this on or off, and when to set the project to time or BPM.

It depends of what you are trying to do
but I think it is what benbenben6 was trying to do.

but i'm cant' be sure untill I have his answer :P

[G-Sun]

As I said, timebase for tempo has to be "beat".
"Time" is a sort of old and wrong behavior, just left there to please some audio to video-guys.
Should be buried away into reaper.ini

[nofish]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

As I said, timebase for tempo has to be "beat".
"Time" is a sort of old and wrong behavior, just left there to please some audio to video-guys.
Should be buried away into reaper.ini

Yeah, "Time" mode works wrong when it comes to MIDI items imo, can't be stressed enough.

[semiquaver]

@Garrick you need to "ignore tempo" when mapping tempo to an item..,

If you later wish to change the tempo and (have the item change with it) you need to create a new item with the glue command before doing the tempo changes!

[semiquaver]

and "time" is a very useful timebase, not "wrong" ! all depends what you are doing.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

and "time" is a very useful timebase, not "wrong" ! all depends what you are doing.

Me (and others) still think it's actually plain wrong (ie not working correctly) how it's implemented in Reaper currently when it comes to timebase "Time" and MIDI items.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3412

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4530

[planetnine]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

and "time" is a very useful timebase, not "wrong" ! all depends what you are doing.

I'll second that...!


>

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

and "time" is a very useful timebase, not "wrong" ! all depends what you are doing.

I was speaking of tempo-timebase, as set in Project preferences.
Not midi-item or midi-event timebase.

[semiquaver]

when doing a film score:

lets say you want a 6 bar theme to come in at 1:06:21 when the planet explodes - it is at 82 BPM

and you want a 12-bar theme at 1:10:14 which you need at 120 BPM

you need to use timebase time for tempo markers in this case - otherwise changing the tempo of your first cue will change the location of your second cue.

this is also the use case for partial measures, so that you can change the tempo between the markers without limtation

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

when doing a film score:

lets say you want a 6 bar theme to come in at 1:06:21 when the planet explodes - it is at 82 BPM

and you want a 12-bar theme at 1:10:14 which you need at 120 BPM

you need to use timebase time for tempo markers in this case - otherwise changing the tempo of your first cue will change the location of your second cue.

this is also the use case for partial measures, so that you can change the tempo between the markers without limtation

Yes, sure, if it's of practical use for some, then :thumbsup:

[Zeigarnik22]

The use-case I had in mind was say you had a song recorded without click fully tempo mapped (both audio and Midi) and then later decide to add a new section to the song right in the middle. When editing tempo markers earlier in the song Midi would fall out of sync past that point.

Switching the timebase to 'beats' seems to be much more reliable with what I've tested so far. Audio and Midi are moving in Sync! I know when you first tempo map a song using SWS, it requests the timebase to be set to 'time'. I hadn't thought of switching it to 'beats' after.

There was one thing that wasn't intuitive when project timebase is set to 'beats'. If you copy a few points on the tempo map and then paste them earlier in the timeline, it will push the Midi after that point out of sync. Using regions to move tempo markers works fine on the other hand. Using a few regions to split the song and insert a new section in the middle seems to work reliably for me.

[X-Raym]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

As I said, timebase for tempo has to be "beat".
"Time" is a sort of old and wrong behavior, just left there to please some audio to video-guys.

Hmmm I'm not sure to understand what is wrong with Time, except its behaviour with MIDI.
Probably because I'm one of these video guys (as prove all my links in my sgnature :P)

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by benbenben6

The use-case I had in mind was say you had a song recorded without click fully tempo mapped (both audio and Midi) and then later decide to add a new section to the song right in the middle. When editing tempo markers earlier in the song Midi would fall out of sync past that point.

Switching the timebase to 'beats' seems to be much more reliable with what I've tested so far. Audio and Midi are moving in Sync! I know when you first tempo map a song using SWS, it requests the timebase to be set to 'time'. I hadn't thought of switching it to 'beats' after.

There was one thing that wasn't intuitive when project timebase is set to 'beats'. If you copy a few points on the tempo map and then paste them earlier in the timeline, it will push the Midi after that point out of sync. Using regions to move tempo markers works fine on the other hand. Using a few regions to split the song and insert a new section in the middle seems to work reliably for me.

Ok, seems like you got it working now.
Yes, maybe we should point it out in the manual. Edited:
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph...9_Preparations

Strange with the paste points behaviour. Good that region move works though.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by X-Raym

Hmmm I'm not sure to understand what is wrong with Time, except its behaviour with MIDI.
Probably because I'm one of these video guys (as prove all my links in my sgnature :P)

As described above here. If tempo-marker timebase is set to "time", then if you make a tempo-change all points after that will loose their beat-position. It was an old behaviour and a nightmare for anyone dealing with a regular song.

Though, I can see it working for audio to video or similar if you set tempo and item timebase to "time".

[Garrick]

Nice one g Sun, I'll give it a go with beats.
Might learn something

[X-Raym]

@G-Sun : Ok, I will make some test, with every "Time/beats" mods combination possible :P
Thanks for the infos !

[Garrick]

Actually my marker time base is already on beats.

[G-Sun]

Giving audio to video and similar a second thought.

What you'd actually prefer, I guess, is really to have a tempo-marker lock to both time and beat-position, then starting a sort of B, C, etc. alternate timelines.
This would require expanding of the concept "allow a partial measure before this marker". So that previous timeline would slide in and out of the locked one.

PiP could maybe work as well.

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by Garrick

This works for when you build a tempo map while you have a midi item in the project, but things become very very fiddly when adjusting a tempo map later. Unless of course i'm doing something wrong

The thing is, when you use feature to "Ignore project tempo" and use tempo at project start, if there are existing tempo markers between item start and end, the timing in item WILL change. No way around it.
When tempo mapping, you should ignore project tempo immediately for those items and glue them only when you really need them to react to tempo changes. Otherwise, just leave them like that.

If it really happens that you need to do that to an item later, with tempo markers set, this could work:

Mark tempo markers around said item and select it
Run SWS/BR: Delete tempo marker and preserve position and length of selected items (including MIDI events)
Run SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items (use tempo at item's start)
Copy the item
Undo to before deleting tempo markers
Delete selected item
Paste your item in it's place

Kinda troublesome (we should make something to handle this in SWS), but at least you're not locked out if the situation happens.

[Garrick]

Cheers breeder, I'll give it a try over the week.

[Garrick]

How about a macro where you make splits at all tempo markers on all midi items and have those midi items ignore tempo at items start? It would be like a tempo editing mode.

Then another macro to heal all splits aka leaving editing mode.

But that might take ages, it could be hundreds of items, and some of those items could be layered with takes so you wouldn't want then glued.

Tempo mapping has come a long way with your recent sws macros breeder, if we could beat this midi problem that it was fool proof, man that would rock


Edit: or a macro where only selected midi get the treatment.

Edit: each time there's a new pre release, I look for "Midi items now obey track time base"

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by Garrick

if we could beat this midi problem that it was fool proof, man that would rock

Next SWS pre-release will include this action to solve these kind of issues:

SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items and preserve time position of events (use tempo at item's start)

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by Breeder

Next SWS pre-release will include this action to solve these kind of issues:

Well, this is finally out in the latest SWS pre-release. Wiki description is available here: http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph...ting_tempo_map

Also, next pre-release containts additional actions that let you easily "draw" the tempo map. I updated wiki with the description on how to achive this: http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph...Draw_tempo_map

[Astroneil]

Wow, this is a great plugin. I'm wondering, is there a way that I can take my tempo mapped project and then time stretch the entire thing so it becomes a uniform tempo?

[europa_man]

[QUOTE=Breeder;1162380]Ah...well, this has nothing to do with SWS. I just tried the native method (that macro you just posted) with the test project and indeed it's results are kinda strange. But that is something you should create bug report about in the cockos tracker.

SWS method doesn't have any problems like that.
Download the latest beta of SWS from here:
https://code.google.com/p/sws-extension/downloads/list

I have SWS extensions installed & downloaded the Warp zip. How do I install the Warp files. Where do I put them?
If you could walk me through the steps how it's installed.
Great job on tempo mapping!
Can I use Paypal for donation?

Regards,
Eric

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by europa_man

I have SWS extensions installed & downloaded the Warp zip. How do I install the Warp files. Where do I put them?
If you could walk me through the steps how it's installed.
Great job on tempo mapping!
Can I use Paypal for donation?

Regards,
Eric

What is Warp zip?

Either download official version from here or pre-release version from here. Pre-release version currently requires latest REAPER pre-release for which you should head here

If you're using Windows, installation is simple enough - just point installer to folder where you have REAPER installed. If you're not using portable installation of REAPER, SWS installer should be able to find the correct folder by itself.

Yup, you can donate through my forum signature with paypal, thanks!

[G-Sun]

Yes, check Project/track/Item timbase

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Breeder

Either download official version from here or pre-release version from here. Pre-release version currently requires latest REAPER pre-release for which you should head here

Re-checking while researching regarding such fearures, I found that the links for the "Warp" don't work ....

-Michael

[LugNut]

Hi,
Breeder was talking about sws.

[heda]

ah... the good old times.. when Breeder was doing amazing things...

Warp grid.. I use it many times.

Warp grid with SWS
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph..._grid_with_SWS

[G-Sun]

SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items preserving time position of MIDI events (use tempo at item's start)

This was a little lifesave today!
Thanks again to Breeder (although he's not around here much anymore)

[sjs94704]

Hey, there!

Total newbie here. I am more of a singer rather than a musician, BUT, in my case, I have found a website that offers high quality sounding karaoke music (Way, way better than what first came out, that's for sure!)

Anyway, here is the link to the song "Send in the Clowns" in the style of Barbra Streisand. Just under the title, there is a picture of a blue sky. Just to the right of that are the STATS of the song and you will notice that for the TEMPO it says VARIABLE.

I don't know the first thing about tempo mapping. Never done it before and would like to know how I go about starting to learn about how to do it as well as how to apply it in the circumstances I'm using it in?

So you know, what I do is put each track of the song in SOLO and download it so that each instrument is on a separate track.

Here is the link to the website/song: https://www.karaoke-version.com/custombackingtrack/barbra-streisand/send-in-the-clowns.html

The person who referred me to this thread asked me what my goal was? It is that if the tempo is indeed variable, how do I figure out what it should be in different parts of the song and what do I do to the song to meet whatever those variable tempos are and then do whatever it takes to match my project as close as possible to the original tempo...

Not sure what else to say ...

So, what do I do first?
.
.
.
.

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by sjs94704

The person who referred me to this thread asked me what my goal was? It is that if the tempo is indeed variable, how do I figure out what it should be in different parts of the song and what do I do to the song to meet whatever those variable tempos are and then do whatever it takes to match my project as close as possible to the original tempo...

Not sure what else to say ...

So, what do I do first?

Mapping tempo is good for playing other instruments in time, or having MIDI instruments triggered in time, with the song. (Or singing in time with the song, if the vocal parts are complex and/or you don't have anything else in the song to judge when to sing your parts.)

If you want a metronome click playing in time with the song because you want to sing with a metronome, in that case you would want to ensure the tempo is mapped. But that's the only reason you might want to do it, in your circumstances.

That's why you had been asked what your goal was. Most singers I know, for most music, don't want to sing to a metronome.

It's your choice. You may benefit from it if you feel your timing (of your vocal performance) is off. But it's work. You might not find it worthwhile.

If you are trying to alter the timing of the song's audio clips...for you, that's not recommended. You'd be "time stretching" audio tracks for no reason (if they're played properly, why do that) and it would make it sound inherently worse due to time stretching.

Watch these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqztQsoMNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sQVeghwRsI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hQrNxNoLvw

Once you understand that, you can consider using scripts and "shortcuts". But if you don't understand what you're doing first, you'll just mess it up.