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Old 06-29-2017, 09:43 AM   #1
srdmusic
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Default Bug inserting or deleting bars over a tempo change

I'm getting strange behavior when deleting or inserting bars into a project that has multiple tempos or meter changes.

Please check out the picture link below for reference and testing. Image A is the original tempo. B and C are show the bug after inserting or deleting time.

If bars are inserted over a meter/ tempo change the previous tempo changes to compensate for the extra bars instead of just inserting extra bars in the time selection. See the image B for reference to the bug.

If bars are deleted over a meter/ tempo change, the later tempo changes to compensate for the missing bars instead of just cutting out of the time selection. See the image C for reference to the bug.

The commands I'm using are:
Time selection: Insert empty space at time selection (moving later items)
Time selection: Remove contents of time selection (moving later items)

LINK TO IMAGES: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qeimnmh79...fuch70vIa?dl=0
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:24 PM   #2
Robert Johnson III
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[Insert empty space moves tempo markers of the grid - Cockos Incorporated Forums](http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=191210)

[Tempo markers with region copy/move do not stay on the grid - Cockos Incorporated Forums](http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=191209)

[A Bestiary of MIDI Bugs for v5.33 - Cockos Incorporated Forums](http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181729)

Tempo map editing is broken (two years and counting)
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:51 PM   #3
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Thankfully SWS help it quite some.

http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph..._grid_with_SWS

http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph...pping_with_SWS
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:27 PM   #4
Robert Johnson III
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SWS just helps with better/faster tempo mapping, the mentioned (editing) bugs remain with no workaround.
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:40 PM   #5
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Well, you can always use the SWS actions to touch up the tempo map after the fact, so in essence, yes, they're also a workaround.
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:52 PM   #6
Robert Johnson III
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Tempo map get’s thrown off the grid (among other things) due to bugs in Reaper, SWS actions are irrelevant here… There are no SWS actions that can touch this up.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:54 PM   #7
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I agree. My sessions that I need to cut or insert time have major problems. I have found no workaround with the SWS extensions. It take hours of my life to edit to make very simple edits when I get new video files from my clients. I really really need to be able to cut or insert time without Reaper miscalculating tempo or moving meters or manipulating midi in a way that's almost irreversible.

If there is a work around I'm all ears. So far it's a lot of manual labor fixing the problems with this bug.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:42 PM   #8
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IMHO it is unacceptable that something this basic and a known bug is broken for so long… Not fixing this and in the meantime spending time on introducing new features is beyond me.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:48 PM   #9
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As if no other DAW vendors doesn't do the exact same thing. There are decades old and basic bugs in most of them, too (well, those that are more than a decade old). So, it looks like generally accepted practice to me.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 06-30-2017 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:45 AM   #10
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No they don’t… If a major core function of a DAW is broken they fix it ASAP. Not all bugs are the same and just because something sucks does not mean it’s oké just because everything else also sucks. You fix it.
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Old 06-30-2017, 04:30 AM   #11
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Sorry but that is false. They all have some brainfart bugs that haven't been fixed for ages. It's just a fact of life.
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Old 06-30-2017, 04:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Sorry but that is false. They all have some brainfart bugs that haven't been fixed for ages. It's just a fact of life.
If a core function of a DAW is broken…. Two years and counting? Could you give me an example?
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:41 AM   #13
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For example, there's a 32-year old bug (!) in Digital Performer in Humanize function at certain settings. Never fixed since the day Humanize was implemented. And I'd say Humanize is pretty much a basic, core function for MIDI editing. So there.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:15 AM   #14
Robert Johnson III
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That does not pop up on Google anywhere? You mean this: [MOTUnation.com • Humanize/Note-Off’s question?](http://www.motunation.com/forum/view...manize#p290681)

And the third result I get is about wonky humanize REAPER behaviour….

Unable to work with tempo maps (and time signatures) does not compare to problems with an esoteric “Humanize function at certain settings” bug IMHO.

And even if this was the case, what’s the point you are trying to make anyway?
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:43 AM   #15
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I have to agree with both of you guys. There are long standing bugs in every DAW. Cubase would leave basic function bugs in the code for a decade and that's why I switch for Reaper. Most bugs in Reaper have some work around or get fixed in a fairly reasonable time. This one has been there for a long time and it's probably because the developer does not know how extremely bad this bug can be.

This particular bug is far worse than most. Any bug that messes with tempo is far far far worse than some feature like humanize. It is especially hard for us users that need reaper to sync to video. If tempo and midi get out of sync with each other. It's a major major major problem.

Here's an example of how badly this error could really be. Imagine being on a recording stage with a 100 piece orchestra and you find out your written notes are out of sync with picture cuts because of a tempo change. Not only that but the tempo or meter bug has now cause different instruments to be out of sync with each other. That's a $1000.00 per minute problem that you have to sort out on the stage all while the musicians are getting pissed off waiting to record.

Please Cockos. If there is anyway to dedicate some time into finding a solution for this, you would be saving us hours of our life and thousands of dollars in record time.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
And even if this was the case, what’s the point you are trying to make anyway?
If you didn't get it by now, I won't bother any longer. It's evident what was my point, but if you want to play dumb, feel free.

Quote:
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Unable to work with tempo maps (and time signatures) does not compare to problems with an esoteric “Humanize function at certain settings” bug IMHO.
Funny. Any issue is equally valid.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:54 AM   #17
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Thanks for clarifying a few things srdmusic.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:09 AM   #18
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I just wanted to jump here because I'm also heavy into the film composing side of things and it's just recently I've encountered the issues with this bug. I also agree that many other DAWs prioritize new features over bug fixes, in fact most of them since that is pretty much the de facto business model now.

That being said, this isn't just a bug, this is completely broken functionality. It makes doing conforms on film cues almost impossible. Think about this for a second. You have a 6 minute action cue that you are getting new versions of video for about every 5 days or so. Changes and cuts all over the place. New bits added, old bits deleted, etc. And your cue, being an action cue has tempo and meter changes all over the place. Hundreds of meter and tempo changes. Which is pretty much par for the course with action cues.

This broken functionality in Reaper makes doing conforms almost impossible. It's a total mind fuck because you are simply trying to adjust the old cue to work with new picture and this makes it like unraveling a ball of yarn. You make one change and suddenly everything else is totally wrong. Your tempo map, your midi - and you now have the toughest time even confirming what the hell was correct before you started adding and deleting measures. It's just brutal. It's so brutal that I may have to abandon Reaper for the time being so I can get through my current movie, which just breaks my heart as I've invested so much time into the program and have been so happy what I've been able to do with Reaper, other bugs and shortcomings aside.

If I can't conform a cue to new video, which I have to do for pretty much every single cue I write multiple times during the course of a film, without it being a total disaster and akin to trying to fix an EPA clean-up site, it's a total showstopper. Yes, other DAWs totally prioritize new features over bugs, but not showstopper bugs. Not bugs that completely break the functionality of the program. Even companies that have a terrible reputation for bug fixes deal with those category of bugs. I really, really, really hope this gets sorted asap as like I said, this is not just a bug but straight up broken.

Last edited by Klangfarben; 06-30-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:36 AM   #19
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Moving towards a more natural way of songwriting/recording and using REAPER as a tool in that process is also impossible (move away from the static on the grid BPM recordings and let songs flow). I really hope Justin is reading this….
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:00 PM   #20
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When I first ran into this issue, I too was working on action cues and thought that perhaps I had just set the timebase for the tempo or tracks incorrectly.

That's not the case. Setting the tempo track to 'time' or bars does nothing to fix this bug.

With no work around, I am also faced with problem of having to switch back to Cubase when work on music than has a lot of tempo changes. That's a real shame since I love Reaper so much.

Should I post this in the feature request section so everyone that this has affected can vote on it do should we wait to see if the developer is seeing this bug report first. I don't want to bombard the forum if it's not needed but this is quite a disastrous bug. There looks to be many people posting about this and very similar tempo and bar issues. If I do make a feature request, I'll make sure to link all the other posts about it.

Does anyone know what version this bug started to show up in? Perhaps it would help Schwa and Justin find the root of the problem.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:08 PM   #21
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Funny. Any issue is equally valid.[/QUOTE]

Evil Dragon, you are absolutely right that all feature requests and bug fixes should be addressed equally as everyone's issues should be treated the same.

I believe this particular issue is much more than just a minor inconvenient bug. It's a broken part of the code. Basically it's a flaw in the fundamental way tempo and meters works in every other DAW, Notation software or even pen and paper. If we can't edit tempo or insert bars without Reaper changing meters and tempo to random numbers, then we can't really work with tempo.

IMHO It would be just as integral as audio suddenly not working. Yes that would technically be a bug, but every DAW can produce audio. If Reaper suddenly couldn't, then it wouldn't be a DAW anymore. That kind show stopper problem should probably be address first on the list.

No disrespect to you in any way Evil Dragon. You've helped me work around other super hard bugs and I totally value your opinion. This one just seems to be more on the lines of a show stopper bug.

Last edited by srdmusic; 06-30-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srdmusic View Post
Does anyone know what version this bug started to show up in? Perhaps it would help Schwa and Justin find the root of the problem.
I'm thinking it was there ever since timebases were introduced, perhaps (and that was a long time ago)... Main problem is probably because Reaper internally works with time, then there's a lot of complicated math to convert that to beats timebase (esp. complex with lots of tempo and timesig changes), and in case of actions to insert/remove time selection, it always seems to work in time units, rather than beats, regardless of the timebase? Seems that way to me. Yeah?


BTW you shouldn't need to post this in FR section, since it's not a FR, it's a bug that needs fixing. Eventually...
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srdmusic View Post
I'm getting strange behavior when deleting or inserting bars into a project that has multiple tempos or meter changes.
As discussed in the thread Insert empty space moves tempo markers of the grid, the action "Insert empty space" does not insert bars, but instead inserts space that is equal in *time* duration to the time selection. If the time selection is not an exact multiple of beats (calculated in the tempo preceding the insert point), subsequent events will necessarily shift away from the beat.

A further complication arises if there are time signature markers (as in your screenshots) -- and if the timesig marker following the time selection is not set to "Allow a partial measure". In this case, REAPER must try to keep the marker on the beat by changing the preceding *tempo* marker.

Until REAPER gets a native Action to insert beats instead of time, try the "js_Time selection - Insert empty beats at time selection (moving later items).lua script.


Quote:
Originally Posted by srdmusic View Post
If bars are inserted over a meter/ tempo change the previous tempo changes to compensate for the extra bars instead of just inserting extra bars in the time selection. See the image B for reference to the bug.
Set "Options: Add edge points when ripple editing or inserting time" to ON. If REAPER cannot insert new tempo markers at the edges, it is forced to change the last tempo marker before the insertion point.

(This option will unfortunately overwrite and destroy pre-existing timesig markers at the insertion point, so must be use with care. Rather use partial measures.)

Last edited by juliansader; 07-02-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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