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Old 10-23-2017, 09:11 AM   #121
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I don‘t have laggy gui behaviour at all on Sierra.
Not at my Hackintosh in the studio nor at my late 2013 Macbook at home.

Can‘t compare to Windows as I don‘t use it.
The MacBook has a Retina display?
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:34 AM   #122
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I don‘t have laggy gui behaviour at all on Sierra.
Not at my Hackintosh in the studio nor at my late 2013 Macbook at home.

Can‘t compare to Windows as I don‘t use it.
Opposite land for me too. The one time a while back I installed Windows on the same machine to try it (probably after reading someone's post about better performance), Windows was laggy compared to OSX.

Wish I had something to offer for a suggestion. Sure curious what the root cause is going to turn out to be on this one. A couple/few people have been posting about GUI problems for a good while now.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:38 PM   #123
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Wish I had something to offer for a suggestion. Sure curious what the root cause is going to turn out to be on this one. A couple/few people have been posting about GUI problems for a good while now.
Switching to a color profile that isn't 30-bit color helps a lot on the 5k imacs and other 30 bit displays, e.g. http://www.1014.org/index.php?article=697
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:01 PM   #124
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Switching to a color profile that isn't 30-bit color helps a lot on the 5k imacs and other 30 bit displays, e.g. http://www.1014.org/index.php?article=697
Thanks for posting this!

Since this applies to the iMacs, what would be a similar fix for rMBP (2016)? I've tried doing this on my rMBP and it doesn't seem to fix the performance.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:38 PM   #125
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GUI lag is not half as bad as some others on my late 2015 iMac, but there is no noticeable difference when I change colour profile and/or start REAPER in low res mode.

I've heard some Logic users saying that Apple sacrificed audio engine resources to sort out slow GUI refreshing in Logic, but I don't know how true that is.
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:34 PM   #126
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Ignorance is bliss here with no 4k screens I guess.

Also there's lag and then there's lag. I expect some lag if I'm zooming in on a flac file from the live decode for the view vs instantaneous response from wav files on a SSD. There are visual elements lagging here and there depending on the seeking and zoom level but I know it's from decoding the flac.

So I might be right about that and correctly not reporting any unexpected GUI lag. Someone else might not put that together and report a problem. Or maybe I should be getting better performance than I realize (not necessarily with the above example) and I should be complaining too?
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:35 PM   #127
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The MacBook has a Retina display?
MacBook is retina, Hackintosh is a Raven Display.
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:34 AM   #128
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Ignorance is bliss here with no 4k screens I guess.

Also there's lag and then there's lag. I expect some lag if I'm zooming in on a flac file from the live decode for the view vs instantaneous response from wav files on a SSD. There are visual elements lagging here and there depending on the seeking and zoom level but I know it's from decoding the flac.

So I might be right about that and correctly not reporting any unexpected GUI lag. Someone else might not put that together and report a problem. Or maybe I should be getting better performance than I realize (not necessarily with the above example) and I should be complaining too?
Well said !
For me the same case.
I never experienced the way of zooming in Reaper to be a GUI lag.
Until i saw the comparison in this thread between osx and windows; indeed, on windows it goes alot smoother.
It's not a big deal for me.

For me personally, its way more important that moving items around in Arrange goes smooth and that does for me.
When i compare moving items around against how that goes in for instance Protools, then those move actions in Protools go very laggy, especially when a PT project contains quite alot of items (regions in PT language).

OSX 10.12.6
Macbook Retina 2015.
External Dell monitor attached via thunderbolt (mini display).
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:47 AM   #129
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Ignorance is bliss here with no 4k screens I guess.

Also there's lag and then there's lag. I expect some lag if I'm zooming in on a flac file from the live decode for the view vs instantaneous response from wav files on a SSD. There are visual elements lagging here and there depending on the seeking and zoom level but I know it's from decoding the flac.

So I might be right about that and correctly not reporting any unexpected GUI lag. Someone else might not put that together and report a problem. Or maybe I should be getting better performance than I realize (not necessarily with the above example) and I should be complaining too?
Marquee selection is a good benchmark. On Windows the bottom corner of the marquee stays right with the mouse cursor, no matter how stupidly fast you wiggle it around. On OS X there is a delay between the mouse cursor moving and the marquee catching up.

It's in no way any kind of big deal for me, but it is worse on some others' systems. I have to do silly things like wiggle a marquee selection around stupid fast to really notice it, though I would really appreciate snappier metering.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:06 AM   #130
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I use the newest Logic Pro X on my 5K iMac and its GUI is butter smooth now so Reaper can be made the same.., and this weird rumour that there is a trade off with the audio engine of Logic Pro is nonsense, I'm sick of excuses.

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Old 10-24-2017, 03:10 AM   #131
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GUI lagness in OSX DAW's is becoming a real hot topic nowadays.
Seems that especially mac users on Apple retina's high def screens are struck by it (and with the "newer osx versions" like Sierra and High Sierra).

- Steinberg is struggling to solve severe GUI lagness for many Cubase 9 users and Nuendo 8 users, they havent come up with a solution.
- Bitwig users on OSX complaining about GUI lag, especially users on macbook retina's.
- Avid seems to have pretty solved GUI lags problems in their Protools 12 - OSX.
- Reaper OSX users on retina: commonly not very happy with GUI performance.
- Apple seems to have solved Logic Pro GUI lag problems (WTH is their trick up their sleeve ??)
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:39 AM   #132
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I use the newest Logic Pro X on my 5K iMac and its GUI is butter smooth now so Reaper can be made the same.., and this weird rumour that there is a trade off with the audio engine of Logic Pro is nonsense, I'm sick of excuses.

.

.
Yeah... it only took Apple the best part of a decade to fix a problem with their own proprietary hardware and software. Must be a cinch to fix, especially as they are well known for being really open about this kind of thing with developers!
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:45 AM   #133
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GUI lagness in OSX DAW's is becoming a real hot topic nowadays.
Seems that especially mac users on Apple retina's high def screens are struck by it (and with the "newer osx versions" like Sierra and High Sierra).
Actually, I'm not sure that more recent OS X versions change things at all, for better or worse (in terms of GUI refresh rate in DAW's).
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:54 AM   #134
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Yeah... it only took Apple the best part of a decade to fix a problem with their own proprietary hardware and software. Must be a cinch to fix, especially as they are well known for being really open about this kind of thing with developers!
Ignorance is bliss remember.., my 2008 MacBook Pro running Logic never had a GUI lag that I noticed.., only when I got this 2015 5K iMac I then noticed the lag.., I have been complaining to apple since I got this 5k iMac and apple have finally fixed the GUI problem with the last Logic Pro Update, it runs smooth and delicious now.., so I guess you could say it took them almost 2 years to fix the problem.

And also this new macOS High Sierra 10.13 is extremely snappy and its GUI lag is loads smoother then Sierra 10.12.6.. so apple have definitely improved everything.

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Old 10-24-2017, 04:12 AM   #135
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Ignorance is bliss remember.., my 2008 MacBook Pro running Logic never had a GUI lag that I noticed.., only when I got this 2015 5K iMac I then noticed the lag.., I have been complaining to apple since I got this 5k iMac and apple have finally fixed the GUI problem with the last Logic Pro Update, it runs smooth and delicious now.., so I guess you could say it took them almost 2 years to fix the problem.

And also this new macOS High Sierra 10.13 is extremely snappy and its GUI lag is loads smoother then Sierra 10.12.6.. so apple have definitely improved everything.

.

.
No, Logic was having major GUI problems ever since Retina was introduced in 2013. Very variable from system to system though, just like with REAPER. The channel EQ analyser in particular had many users' refresh rate drop to unusable levels.

I haven't noticed any graphics improvements with High Sierra, but it is a lot more stable for me than El Capitan. My Mac feels like a Mac again, which makes me happy (having my Windows machine more stable than my Mac made me very sad )
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Old 10-24-2017, 04:19 AM   #136
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No, Logic was having major GUI problems ever since Retina was introduced in 2013. Very variable from system to system though, just like with REAPER. The channel EQ analyser in particular had many users' refresh rate drop to unusable levels.

I haven't noticed any graphics improvements with High Sierra, but it is a lot more stable for me than El Capitan. My Mac feels like a Mac again, which makes me happy (having my Windows machine more stable than my Mac made me very sad )

So then its only taken apple 4 years and not 10 like you said earlier... hehe.. High Sierra on my 5K iMac is awesome, its very snappy and smooth now.., all I need now is for the GUI of Reaper to be the same.

.

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Old 10-24-2017, 04:35 AM   #137
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So then its only taken apple 4 years and not 10 like you said earlier... hehe.. High Sierra on my 5K iMac is awesome, its very snappy and smooth now.., all I need now is for the GUI of Reaper to be the same.

.

.
Derp. yeah. I hadn't finished my coffee yet

I meant to say "best part of half a decade".

I'm not saying I wouldn't love for REAPER to be super-snappy on OS X, of course I would. I just think the idea that it's a simple fix is misguided, that's all. I'm glad Justin is looking into it and reporting back to us - that's something Apple would never do!
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Old 10-24-2017, 04:59 AM   #138
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Retina is the largest factor. Hardly any problems with pre-retina machines.

It's not the only factor, tho.

There are a lot of background processes going on. Messaging, SpotLight indexing, Icon preview, Software update, GateKeeper...

These do not directly cause GUI lag, but if they come in an unfortunate order, they can cause a thing that only recently was given a name: Inter Process Jitter.

It's extremely hard to test for these, as they depend on processes working. You'd need to test every order of every chain of processes. Easy to see this will become impossible with any DAW system.

Especially since Apple's private processes (Appstore, crash reporting...) have no documentation. And even some of the public processes have no docs.

This isn't an Apple only problem. It's in the hardware too. Apple has the advantage to run an OS on proprietary hardware, but even Apple is having trouble debugging latest generations chipsets. Again, easy to understand if you know they have moved half of the OSX dev team to iOS a while back.

OSX is "free" now. As in "gratis". But we've become the beta testers and the product.

Lately, Apple hardware has started to suck. BigTime!

Still no new Mini. It's been three years. No new Mac Pro. That's four years. The new gimmick on the MB Pro's doesn't seem to get traction. And the keyboards suck. Apple started counting spacebar failures, to name just one thing.

It is clear where Apple is heading: iOS.
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Old 10-24-2017, 05:05 AM   #139
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Derp. yeah. I hadn't finished my coffee yet

I meant to say "best part of half a decade".

I'm not saying I wouldn't love for REAPER to be super-snappy on OS X, of course I would. I just think the idea that it's a simple fix is misguided, that's all. I'm glad Justin is looking into it and reporting back to us - that's something Apple would never do!

Understood.. hehe.., surely it must be possible to make the GUI of Reaper smoother than it currently is.., the Reaper developers are absolute wizards, I do not expect super duper smooth but I do expect some improvement.., this new macOS has changed again now with improved graphics performance so I feel its time for the Reaper developers to update its GUI performance as well.

.

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Old 10-24-2017, 05:15 AM   #140
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Retina is the largest factor. Hardly any problems with pre-retina machines.

It's not the only factor, tho.

There are a lot of background processes going on. Messaging, SpotLight indexing, Icon preview, Software update, GateKeeper...

These do not directly cause GUI lag, but if they come in an unfortunate order, they can cause a thing that only recently was given a name: Inter Process Jitter.

It's extremely hard to test for these, as they depend on processes working. You'd need to test every order of every chain of processes. Easy to see this will become impossible with any DAW system.

Especially since Apple's private processes (Appstore, crash reporting...) have no documentation. And even some of the public processes have no docs.



This isn't an Apple only problem. It's in the hardware too. Apple has the advantage to run an OS on proprietary hardware, but even Apple is having trouble debugging latest generations chipsets. Again, easy to understand if you know they have moved half of the OSX dev team to iOS a while back.

OSX is "free" now. As in "gratis". But we've become the beta testers and the product.

Lately, Apple hardware has started to suck. BigTime!

Still no new Mini. It's been three years. No new Mac Pro. That's four years. The new gimmick on the MB Pro's doesn't seem to get traction. And the keyboards suck. Apple started counting spacebar failures, to name just one thing.

It is clear where Apple is heading: iOS.

Oh for for crying out loud your so negative.., I have no issues with my 5K iMac at all.., if you actually stopped being so negative you would know that apple are releasing a brand new Mac Pro modular next year, Tim Cook last Thursday said the Mac mini is an important of the future Mac line up, so eventually this will be updated..the new iMac Pro is super powerful.. and the new MacBook Pro line up is fine.. haha.

.

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