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Old 10-12-2017, 07:26 AM   #201
rschlierbeck
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Hi Geoff,

First, thank you for doing this.

I don't have much experience with control surfaces but I can talk about how I use my BCR2000. I tried to get Klink's plugin running but I was never able to. I'm sure it's just something I did wrong.

here is how I have been using the BCR2000.

I Leave P1 at the default for use with my MIDI 2 LR program. In REAPER I use P2.
In P2 All encoders have been changed to relative.
The top row maps to send levels on whatever channel is selected in the MCP but I only use the first 4 encoders. The second 4 don't see any action.
Then on the bottom 24 encoders, I have the left most group (column 1) mapped so that the bottom encoder adjusts the volume fader of the selected track. The next encoder up adjusts the pan of the selected track.
Columns 2 through 8 are used for plugin parameter control. I open the plugin I want to use and try to match the encoders to the layout of the plugin and use the Param MIDI Learn feature. The attached picture should help.

Here is my ideal (dream) setup

I would like to use a different preset group (P2, P3, P4...) for each plugin so that I could mix and match the encoder styles, absolute vs relative, to suit the plugin being controlled. When I select the plugin I would like the BCR2000 to jump to the correct preset. Maybe leave P1 for track control so that each column of encoders map to a bank of 8 tracks.

I'm not sure if this is the kind of input you are looking for but it is what I think would make the BCR2000 nearly perfect.

Thanks again for all your work.

Jones
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Old 10-13-2017, 04:58 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rschlierbeck View Post
Hi Geoff,

First, thank you for doing this.

I don't have much experience with control surfaces but I can talk about how I use my BCR2000. I tried to get Klink's plugin running but I was never able to. I'm sure it's just something I did wrong.

here is how I have been using the BCR2000.

I Leave P1 at the default for use with my MIDI 2 LR program. In REAPER I use P2.
In P2 All encoders have been changed to relative.
The top row maps to send levels on whatever channel is selected in the MCP but I only use the first 4 encoders. The second 4 don't see any action.
Then on the bottom 24 encoders, I have the left most group (column 1) mapped so that the bottom encoder adjusts the volume fader of the selected track. The next encoder up adjusts the pan of the selected track.
Columns 2 through 8 are used for plugin parameter control. I open the plugin I want to use and try to match the encoders to the layout of the plugin and use the Param MIDI Learn feature. The attached picture should help.

Here is my ideal (dream) setup

I would like to use a different preset group (P2, P3, P4...) for each plugin so that I could mix and match the encoder styles, absolute vs relative, to suit the plugin being controlled. When I select the plugin I would like the BCR2000 to jump to the correct preset. Maybe leave P1 for track control so that each column of encoders map to a bank of 8 tracks.

I'm not sure if this is the kind of input you are looking for but it is what I think would make the BCR2000 nearly perfect.

Thanks again for all your work.

Jones
Thanks for the input, always welcomed and appreciated.

As far as your dream solution, I think the key is whether we can send a preset change to the BCR2000 by midi, do you know if that's possible ?

If so, I think your ideal could be realized.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:41 AM   #203
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If I'm reading this correctly then it should be possible to send a message to change the preset.

From the manual:

19.3 Preset selection
There are four ways of selecting a memory preset:
1. Press ‘= PRESET” or ‘PRESET <’ on the BC. See §23.5 for discussion.
2. Send a Program Change MIDI message to the BC. Specifically: $Cn MemoryPreset!1, where n
is equal to .rxch’s ReceiveChannel !1.
3. Send Behringer’s SysEx command $22 to the BC, specifying the desired memory preset.
4. Send a BCL chain to the BC containing a recall statement: $recall MemoryPreset.
Any of these preset selection methods causes the BC to execute the following sequence of actions:
1. The BC copies the selected memory preset’s settings to the temporary preset. Note that this does
not include the Value settings of the memory preset’s elements, since these Value settings aren’t
actually part of the memory preset as such.
2. If the preset’s Request setting is on, the BC sends any MIDI bytes defined in the preset’s LEARN
output (as defined via one or more .tx statements).
3. If the preset’s Snapshot setting is on, the BC sends any standard and/or custom output defined for
the preset’s elements. See §23.4.

Item 2 sounds like the ticket.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:07 AM   #204
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This is what I've been waiting from Reaper devs for more that five years. Good attempt, Geoff!
It took me a couple of minutes to understand that ini file should go to AppData, while the plugin itself should be placed where other csurf plugins are.
Is it true that CSI is only useful for mcu compatible devices for now?

Since I'm using Novation SL MkII, I don't understand this part:
/ First thing to do is name your surface like Mix1
/ For this simple method there can be NO SPACES in the Control surface name

Where exactly should I rename my controller? Plugin itself doesn't have any settings. Windows isn't allowing to do such things. I can rename the device in Reaper itself, but would rather wait for your answer. Or I'll try and get back to you later.

I have a couple of questions, though.
Would it be possible to convert osc/midi data from reaper to sysex for displaying names/params on the controller's LCD?
Does it support any buttons/encoders/transport control at this stage? Only faders for now, without setting it's midi addresses?

P.S. Plugin makes Reaper to play single piano note at start and also each time when track is added. I suppose it somehow tries to communicate with Microsoft System GM Synth.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:22 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fundorin View Post

Since I'm using Novation SL MkII, I don't understand this part:
/ First thing to do is name your surface like Mix1
/ For this simple method there can be NO SPACES in the Control surface name

Where exactly should I rename my controller?
In the CSI.ini file.
For example, the first line here reads (since I'm using a BCR):

MidiInMonitor=Off
MidiOutMonitor=Off
BCR200 8 5 8

edit:
I should clarify, the naming part is not crucial for functioning, just to help identify your controller(s) when testing. It shows this name when MIDI monitoring is enabled and data is received, as seen here:

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=184

Last edited by nofish; 10-13-2017 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:37 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
edit:
I should clarify, the naming part is not crucial for functioning, just to help identify your controller(s) when testing. It shows this name when MIDI monitoring is enabled and data is received, as seen here:
So, if I have, for example, two controllers connected, both communicating with pc via channel1, how the plugin would distinguish, which controller should display which data?

Two controllers. 8 faders and 2 buttons in each. Faders on both used to control track volume in mixer. Buttons are for track bank switching.
Suppose, first controller is set to control tracks 1-8 volume with bank buttons.
Second is set to control tracks 9-16.
We move track 1 volume in reaper. What would happen? Which of the controllers would receive the feedback from Reaper?

Next, we select faders 1-8 with bank buttons of the second controller, so both controllers are set the same. We move track1 volume in reaper again. What would happen now?

My questions might be irrelevant, though, since it may be that at this state plugin is only allowing faders 1-8 to be set for the first controller, 9-16 for the second one and so one.
Anyway, since it seems that plugin is now set to work with MCU compatible hardware, I'll wait till the next release with my SL MkII.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:12 PM   #207
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Yes, currently it's hardwired afaik.

Quote:
You will be able to tell where your surface is showing up by the Control Surface name at the left of the midi message in the debug window
Mix1 - tracks 1-8
Mix2 - tracks 9-16
Control - tracks 17-20
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=165
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:36 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by fundorin View Post
So, if I have, for example, two controllers connected, both communicating with pc via channel1, how the plugin would distinguish, which controller should display which data?

Two controllers. 8 faders and 2 buttons in each. Faders on both used to control track volume in mixer. Buttons are for track bank switching.
Suppose, first controller is set to control tracks 1-8 volume with bank buttons.
Second is set to control tracks 9-16.
We move track 1 volume in reaper. What would happen? Which of the controllers would receive the feedback from Reaper?

Next, we select faders 1-8 with bank buttons of the second controller, so both controllers are set the same. We move track1 volume in reaper again. What would happen now?

My questions might be irrelevant, though, since it may be that at this state plugin is only allowing faders 1-8 to be set for the first controller, 9-16 for the second one and so one.
Anyway, since it seems that plugin is now set to work with MCU compatible hardware, I'll wait till the next release with my SL MkII.
Yeah, it's a very early pre alpha, some folks wanted a sneak peek, so it's up there, more for discussion purposes than anything.

As for banking nofish has it right.

When you say 2 controllers on channel 1, not sure what you mean, each controller would be on a seperate midi channel.

As far as how they layout, it's simple as shown in nofish's post.

Here's a sample file:
Mix1 8 1 1
Mix2 8 2 2
Control 4 3 3

The first number after the name is the number of faders, then midi in channel, then midi out channel.

So you see we have a logical surface of 20 channels -- 8 + 8 + 4

CSI will lay out the tracks on this surface as they are listed in the file.

So of you wanted the hardware with 4 faders to show the first 4 channels, you simply change the order:
Control 4 3 3
Mix1 8 1 1
Mix2 8 2 2

Simple as that !

Now as far as banking, the map will allow you to put in your bank page amount, 20 might work here as that's the size of the logical surface, but you can set it to anytihing you like, once maps are implemented, of course
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Old 10-14-2017, 04:59 AM   #209
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Will it be possible to use keymaps the same way as with OSC and oscii-bot script?
I mean, full customization, like you decide the behaviour of the controller. Simple match logic: "if this then that". "If shift button A is held, than faders control send, else if shift button A was pressed and released, than faders control panorama, else faders control volume".

Or, if button A is held, LCD is displaying first of current selected track's sends, else if no tracks selected, LCD is displaying sends of the first tracks that have any sends, else LCD is displaying volume level for 8 tracks from currently selected bank.

Last edited by fundorin; 10-14-2017 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:35 PM   #210
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Will it be possible to use keymaps the same way as with OSC and oscii-bot script?
I mean, full customization, like you decide the behaviour of the controller. Simple match logic: "if this then that". "If shift button A is held, than faders control send, else if shift button A was pressed and released, than faders control panorama, else faders control volume".

Or, if button A is held, LCD is displaying first of current selected track's sends, else if no tracks selected, LCD is displaying sends of the first tracks that have any sends, else LCD is displaying volume level for 8 tracks from currently selected bank.
Yes, exactly, that's the whole reason for the project
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:06 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Yes, exactly, that's the whole reason for the project
Glad to hear. I wonder, why Reaper devs didn't write such plugin years ago. Yet, still, it's good, that it's finally happening.
I'm really insterested of how would those keymaps look like. It's easy to imagine such configuration files based on something like Lua scripting, but simple text with some logic that would allow to convert data from Reaper into sysex commands to display text and parameters on built-in LCD - that's should be a whole new level.
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:33 AM   #212
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This one looks useful, 8 more faders than the Faderport 8 !: https://www.presonus.com/products/Fa...-16/tech-specs

Is anyone using it yet ...and how well does it integrate with Reaper ?
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:42 AM   #213
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Ok, VU meter response seems good enough to me, what say you folks ?

https://youtu.be/XdCO1633hGg

Also, added the ability to enter values for VU meter range.
This along, with the Reaper values for min/max VU in Preferences->Appearance->Track Control Panels are used to enable you tweak the meter to taste, as well as get generally more accurate values.

Now I'm going to apply the same rules to Faders, in an attempt to get more accurate tracking between Reaper and the surfaces.

Note that the values are set per fader/meter, so there's lots of room for flexibility there.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:33 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Ok, VU meter response seems good enough to me, what say you folks ?

https://youtu.be/XdCO1633hGg
I never had a real MCU in my hands so I don't have any comparison but looks good to me.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:23 PM   #215
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looks snappy enough
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Old 10-18-2017, 04:39 AM   #216
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Ok, sends...

I like the idea of representing sends on faders, because sends have mutes, pans, etc., they feel like a channel.

Some people like sends on rotaries.

What's your preference and why ?
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Old 10-18-2017, 06:46 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
What's your preference and why ?
As for me, Geoff, I prefer to assign any banking parameters (in pairs of 8) to any physical controls, i.e encoders, pots and faders. This freedom will allow one to customize his non-mcu controller the way he likes.

For example, with my SL MkII I want four independent global presets, accessible via user/fx/inst/mixer physical buttons.
Each preset could be anything, since I may not use extensively markers or regions in "user" preset for now (regular midi without feedback) and don't need them in my controller, but I might want them to be implemented later.
And I don't now, which type of control could be most suitable for those or any other Reaper tasks that I'm not aware yet.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:09 AM   #218
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As for me, Geoff, I prefer to assign any banking parameters (in pairs of 8) to any physical controls, i.e encoders, pots and faders. This freedom will allow one to customize his non-mcu controller the way he likes.

For example, with my SL MkII I want four independent global presets, accessible via user/fx/inst/mixer physical buttons.
Each preset could be anything, since I may not use extensively markers or regions in "user" preset for now (regular midi without feedback) and don't need them in my controller, but I might want them to be implemented later.
And I don't now, which type of control could be most suitable for those or any other Reaper tasks that I'm not aware yet.
Yes, of course, you will be able to do all of that, I'm just looking for reasons one might like one over the other, so that the application can accommodate the thinking.

As you say, I'm looking for how people interact with what's available now, and how they use it (rotary, fader, etc.).
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:17 AM   #219
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Ok, sends...

I like the idea of representing sends on faders, because sends have mutes, pans, etc., they feel like a channel.

Some people like sends on rotaries.

What's your preference and why ?
Sends on faders for me. The way Klinke's plug works with the faderport 8 is great, select track hit sends and i've got all my sends/receives right there on motorized faders with ability to solo/mute. Can't get any simpler.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:56 AM   #220
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I have a question. What about touch sensitive controls? For example, SL MkII changes the info that is shown on the LCD, depending on what control have been touched. This works with every type of control, except buttons. The controller itself sends out specific CC's at that moment. AFAIR they're different values of the same CC for faders row, encoders row, pots row and one extra encoder in the middle of the controller.
Do you consider the plugin to react not only to 0-1 or 0-127 values, but the different values (or ranges) of the same CC as well?
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:24 PM   #221
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I have a question. What about touch sensitive controls? For example, SL MkII changes the info that is shown on the LCD, depending on what control have been touched. This works with every type of control, except buttons. The controller itself sends out specific CC's at that moment. AFAIR they're different values of the same CC for faders row, encoders row, pots row and one extra encoder in the middle of the controller.
Do you consider the plugin to react not only to 0-1 or 0-127 values, but the different values (or ranges) of the same CC as well?
Wow, I just tried to look up the midi implementation (saw your older thread on this in my travels), that is one strange beast, with extra "secret" USB port and such

Anyway , what matters is whether touching a control sends a midi message.

If the touch sends a midi message like MCU, you're good to go.

Have you any midi info on the sl mkii ?
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Old 10-19-2017, 07:41 AM   #222
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Wow, I just tried to look up the midi implementation (saw your older thread on this in my travels), that is one strange beast, with extra "secret" USB port and such
That extra midi port is 90% the same as the second port, which is used for CC messages. It's not USB, but virtual midi port.
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Anyway , what matters is whether touching a control sends a midi message.
If the touch sends a midi message like MCU, you're good to go.
Yes, it does send a midi message, but not mcu-specific one.


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Have you any midi info on the sl mkii ?
Sure. Here's the link.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:04 AM   #223
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Looks like you are good, the sl mkii does emit separate messages for touch.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:57 PM   #224
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Looks like you are good, the sl mkii does emit separate messages for touch.
It sure does. Just not the regular way.
That third port is used to communicate with Automap software.
I've read MCU specs and must say that SL should be much easier to implement, except the LCD part, witch requires to encode long sysex messages.Good thing that it fully described in programmers manual, so I hope it won't big of an issue for me to implement them.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:45 PM   #225
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It sure does. Just not the regular way.
That third port is used to communicate with Automap software.
I've read MCU specs and must say that SL should be much easier to implement, except the LCD part, witch requires to encode long sysex messages.Good thing that it fully described in programmers manual, so I hope it won't big of an issue for me to implement them.
Ummm...

Don't want to give the wrong impression here, you won't (at least at first) be able to do things like SysEx programming directly. that would have to be added from this end.

You could, of course, invoke the SysEx code through some kind of script that was triggered by an action hooked to update, so, in that sense you could program things.
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:39 PM   #226
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Ummm...

Don't want to give the wrong impression here, you won't (at least at first) be able to do things like SysEx programming directly. that would have to be added from this end.

You could, of course, invoke the SysEx code through some kind of script that was triggered by an action hooked to update, so, in that sense you could program things.
To display text on LCD, one need to take a string from Reaper, like track name "Guitar Harmony", convert each letter to the corresponding hex code and decide, at which position on the LCD it should be displayed.
For example, we choose starting position for this text as first character of the second row of the left display (SL 25 have two displays, so one need to clarify which display should be used, even when MkII have only one LCD).

So, if one wants to display the state of Reaper buttons, he should construct the message for, using a template.
Then, sysex message for controller is constructed:



Will it be possible to do such things with the plugin? How does the MCU-compatible controllers displays info from Reaper now, using the existing csurf plugins?
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:29 PM   #227
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Will it be possible to do such things with the plugin? How does the MCU-compatible controllers displays info from Reaper now, using the existing csurf plugins?
The MCU display uses similar F0 -data- F7 (SysEx) streams for text.

Once again the plugin will not allow you to code things at that level, that would have to be done in the plugin code itself.
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:45 PM   #228
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The MCU display uses similar F0 -data- F7 (SysEx) streams for text.

Once again the plugin will not allow you to code things at that level, that would have to be done in the plugin code itself.
These means that the customization won't be possible, then. Sad to hear.

Last edited by fundorin; 10-19-2017 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 10-20-2017, 05:00 AM   #229
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I'm just finalizing it now, I certainly will share it with you when it's done.

Do you already have your Mix and Control talking to Reaper in Mackie mode ?
I also have that setup but I don't have the units talking to REAPER yet. I thought that wasn't possible using the latest Eucon software. Could you please walk me through it? I'd really appreciate it because those things are collecting dust
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Old 10-20-2017, 07:37 AM   #230
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I also have that setup but I don't have the units talking to REAPER yet. I thought that wasn't possible using the latest Eucon software. Could you please walk me through it? I'd really appreciate it because those things are collecting dust
Ok, you mean you want use Mackie protocol with the Artist series ?

On a Mac just go into Settings EuCon and drag Reaper onto the EuCon window and tweak a couple of drop-downs, presume there's something similar in the Windows world.
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Old 10-20-2017, 06:44 PM   #231
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Sorry for hijacking your thread, Geoff, but I feel like this might be interesting.

Has anyone tried the app that goes together with MadMapper - software for video mapping? It's called MadRouter and allows both simple and advanced translation between OSC and MIDI.
Simple translation is done similarly to OSCulator, while advanced is including python script creating and editing.
One can add a pair of devices (dmx, art-net, midi, osc, keyboard, ps3/4 gamepad) and create a translation, using wildcards and ranges.
After creating a pair, one can edit the script, using Python language.

Screenshot 1 - https://i.imgur.com/7b8UwVC.png
Screenshot 2 - https://i.imgur.com/EZIM32r.png

There's very little info on the official site and the app itself isn't available to download for free, though it's avaliable for registered users of MadMapper with no charge. I've managed to find osx version (asked a couple dozens of payed customers and few of them answered) and ran it on virtual machine just to test it out and make screenshots.
I'll find out tomorrow, if Windows version even exist and will try to create working midi<>osc bridge, if it does.

The info about MadRouter is at the bottom of this page. I also have a short manual for it in PDF format.

UPD. No Windows version at all. Only osx.

Last edited by fundorin; 10-24-2017 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:26 PM   #232
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Ok, sends...

I like the idea of representing sends on faders, because sends have mutes, pans, etc., they feel like a channel.

Some people like sends on rotaries.

What's your preference and why ?
I think that the possibility to have sends, with feedback, on the fader (or rotary encoder) is a great things. Really useful if you need to adjust separate headphones mix for musician for exemple (in this case the possibility to have all the send of the active track on motor fader by only pressing a button would be really useful). Or it is also important in a mix, if you want to quickly automate some effect sends. I read a lot of people searching how to do it with reaper, but the lack of midi feedback made it complicated.
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:43 AM   #233
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Hi, Geoff. Any news?
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:52 PM   #234
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Hi, Geoff. Any news?
Good timing !

Just today got the basics of FX maps working, Sends are next.

After that I think it will time to get the maps going, even though the whole solution is relatively incomplete, but, hey, that's what open source is, often released for alpha/beta way earlier than most other types of software
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Old 11-12-2017, 04:36 PM   #235
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Good timing !
Good news, everyone! 😄

I'm more interested in variety of controllers to be supported from the start, rather than plugin maps, but, hey, all that you do is good.
Wish I could support you, but, I'm currently poor as a church mouse. 🐀
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:49 PM   #236
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This might help creating some advanced OSC stuff, at least it does for me
-> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...21&postcount=7

-Michael
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:27 PM   #237
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This might help creating some advanced OSC stuff, at least it does for me
-> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...21&postcount=7

-Michael
No, it won't. At least, for me.
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Old 11-13-2017, 05:03 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
This might help creating some advanced OSC stuff, at least it does for me
-> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...21&postcount=7

-Michael
Thanks, yeah, been following that thread, all looks good.
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:33 AM   #239
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FYI progress update:

The concepts that will make up the first release have now been successfully tested.

Now refactoring starts, you can think of it as code cleanup, it's arduous and tedious and totally worth it

After this comes a final decision on file format and the 1st release will soon follow.

Take note that there will be NO GUI in the 1st release, manual editing of a text file will be necessary, although I will attempt to provide reasonable starting points for "the usual suspects".

Timeframe: sometime next year (hopefully early next year).
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:32 AM   #240
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Thanks for keeping us updated Geoff.
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