Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Bug Reports

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-23-2017, 06:02 AM   #1
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default [5.70] Notes Hanging with Incoming MIDI CC/Clock, and STOP Issues

Issue: Note OFF messages not getting sent on Transport STOP when Note or Clock messages are incoming:

Hello!

Experiencing lots of stuck notes with virtual instruments since I switched to Mac. Luckily, very easy to replicate. Unluckily, this happens just about every time I stop playback.

Software:

OS: Mac OSX 10.12.6
Reaper 5.70 64-bit

Observed on the following plugins:

The beloved ReaSynth
Native Instruments Kontakt 5.7.3 AU x64
Native Instruments Massive 1.5.1 AU x64
AIR Technology Vacuum Pro

To replicate:

- Create a new project
- Enable an external MIDI device for inputting MIDI data.
- Create a new "virtual instrument track"
- Select a virtual instrument (in my case Kontakt or Massive)
- Make sure that record monitoring is enabled.
- Arm the track to record from "All Channels", either on "All Inputs" or the external MIDI input
- Record a 3-note chord held for a whole note
- Press Stop on Transport
- Move playhead to just before the chord
- Send continuous clock information to REAPER (as some MIDI interface / sequencers do) or spam note information from the MIDI device (if you're playing by hand, this is kind of hard to replicate)
- Click play on the transport
- Just after the chord starts to play, click Stop on the Transport
- Playback of somewhere between 0 and 3 of the notes stops.
- Some notes continue to repeat for all eternity, like Sisyphus
- Hit F3 (Action: Send all notes off to all MIDI outputs/plugins) to stop the notes.

Relevant settings (did not make a difference either checked or unchecked):

Reset MIDI CC/Pitch:
[x] on playback start
[x] on playback stop
[x] on playback loop/skip

MIDI hardware settings:
[x] Reset by all notes off
[x] Reset by pitch/sustain
[x] Reset on Stop/stopped seek
[x] Reset on Playback

Last edited by Allspice; 02-06-2018 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Revision of original bug report
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2017, 06:25 AM   #2
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,752
Default

Could you insert the "MIDI logger" JSFX in front of the instruments, and post the log here?
juliansader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2017, 12:48 PM   #3
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default The Proof is in the Pudding

Attached are logs documenting this fun feature, courtesy of the improved MIDI Logger JSFX (thanks DarkStar).

I ran the test about 20 times. I was assuming there was going to be some sort of all-note-off command getting ignored by NI but, alas, there just aren't enough note offs being sent for the number of notes.

Ballpark numbers:
- 40% of the time only a note off for E3 and G3 was sent.
- 40% of the time the correct note offs were sent.
- 10% of the time only 1 note off was sent.
- 10% of the time NO NOTE OFFS were sent at all (!)

2/3 note offs sent


1/3 note offs sent
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2017, 01:11 PM   #4
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Anyone else able to replicate this with any plugins? Some days it's easy to replicate and other days it just inexplicably doesn't happen, definitely happens most often with Kontakt.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2017, 01:18 PM   #5
dupont
Human being with feelings
 
dupont's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: France
Posts: 584
Default

I don't have this NI plugins but I have hanging notes with u-he plugins.
The hanging notes stop when I hit stop.

I post a mail here a few weeks ago and sent a bug report to u-he support but still waiting for a fix ....
dupont is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2017, 01:28 PM   #6
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Ah, interesting. STOP has no effect on mine, although the slew of note-off messages sent by F3 seem to work.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:26 AM   #7
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Also observed with AIR Vacuum Pro
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:27 AM   #8
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,332
Default

Don't get any such hangs over here... (BTW, number of note-offs doesn't matter if the plugin responds to All Notes Off command (CC 123).)

How do your reset settings look like at the bottom of Preferences->Audio->MIDI Devices?
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:28 AM   #9
vanhaze
Human being with feelings
 
vanhaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,772
Default

One of the many other VSTi's i experience hanging notes with:

Avenger
vanhaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:31 AM   #10
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Don't get any such hangs over here... (BTW, number of note-offs doesn't matter if the plugin responds to All Notes Off command (CC 123).)

How do your reset settings look like at the bottom of Preferences->Audio->MIDI Devices?
If you read the log, the plugins all respond to CC123 (sent with the F3 “panic” button). It does not look like CC123 is being sent on Transport Stop according to the logs I posted.

All the reset settings are checked, as per the original bug report post.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:33 AM   #11
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
One of the many other VSTi's i experience hanging notes with:

Avenger
Can you use Darkstar’s midi logger to take some logs? I’m mostly interested in seeing what exactly Reaper is sending on Transport STOP since on my system it’s only sending a portion of the NOTE OFF messages you would expect.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:38 AM   #12
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,752
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allspice View Post
Anyone else able to replicate this with any plugins? Some days it's easy to replicate and other days it just inexplicably doesn't happen, definitely happens most often with Kontakt.
Several other users have reported similar problems in previous threads.

However, this is the first time (AFAIK) that anyone has provided the MIDI logs. Hopefully this will give the devs something to work with.
juliansader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 10:39 AM   #13
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Is resetting on stop enabled in the Preferences page I mentioned?
Yup. But it’s still only sending a portion of the needed note off messages once STOPPED, and the only way it sends CC123 is if I use “Action: Send All notes off to all midi outputs/plugins”

Do you mind taking a log to see if Transport stop on your system sends anything besides plain old note offs?
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 09:19 PM   #14
cfillion
Human being with feelings
 
cfillion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,775
Default

For me stuck notes happen when monitoring+record arm are enabled. I think it might be triggered when REAPER receives data from the input device at the same time playback is stopped.

Here the keyboard continuously sends Clock messages making it easier to reproduce (easier than spamming a note but that works too):



The missing note off is emitted the next time playback is started.

Last edited by cfillion; 12-28-2017 at 10:50 PM.
cfillion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2017, 11:31 PM   #15
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
For me stuck notes happen when monitoring+record arm are enabled.
Ding ding ding, now we're getting somewhere.

I just ran a few tests. For simplicity’s sake, let’s refer to this issue of incomplete NOTE OFF data being sent as the “Partial STOP issue”. I tested with a Boss RC-505 and a Yamaha DTX Multi 12. I tested each separately and together, then used the Virtual MIDI Keyboard as a control. To make the test simpler, I did not intentionally send any MIDI data from these devices while testing.

Tested with Reaper 5.70
Mac OSX 10.12.6
Boss RC-505 and Yamaha DTX Multi 12

“Partial STOP issue” occurs when the following prerequisites are met:
  • MIDI Track contains a virtual instrument and MIDI data.
  • The track is armed to record from “ALL MIDI CHANNELS” on either the MIDI interface’s device input or “All Inputs”
  • Record monitoring is enabled on the track.

This issue does not occur when a specific MIDI channel is monitored, and it disappears when the MIDI device or devices are disabled.

Now I'm curious if it's limited to certain MIDI interfaces or if it's any enabled MIDI input device. I'll test it with a USB MIDI keyboard next. One potential issue that's occuring to me is that both the DTX Multi and the RC 505 can be used as master clocks / sequencers. I wonder if that's a factor.

Last edited by Allspice; 12-28-2017 at 11:56 PM. Reason: clarity
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2017, 12:01 AM   #16
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
For me stuck notes happen when monitoring+record arm are enabled. I think it might be triggered when REAPER receives data from the input device at the same time playback is stopped.

Here the keyboard continuously sends Clock messages making it easier to reproduce (easier than spamming a note but that works too):



The missing note off is emitted the next time playback is started.
Awesome, just duplicated this on Mac 10.12.6 with a Keith McMillen QuNexus controller. Had to play the hell out of the keyboard to get it to happen but it did.

So it looks like incoming clock messages or note data on armed channels with monitoring enabled can cause Reaper to skip some Note OFF messages when the transport is stopped.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2017, 09:55 PM   #17
cymbals
Human being with feelings
 
cymbals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allspice View Post
Also observed with AIR Vacuum Pro
I am seeing the same thing in AIR Vacuum Pro, also in AIR Hybrid. When I stop and then rewind to beginning and start playing, the notes (decay) will resume.

I am wondering if this is an AIR thing.

Last edited by cymbals; 12-31-2017 at 10:11 AM.
cymbals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2017, 08:15 AM   #18
doppelganger
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 391
Default

i had this bug with kontakt library even in previous versions of REAPER, when you press stop/play and some 1 note from previous play cycle doesn't stop and messes up with current play cycle, sorry, can't remember what a library it was, but it's very annoying bug.
doppelganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2017, 01:10 PM   #19
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cymbals View Post
I am seeing the same thing in AIR Vacuum Pro, also in AIR Hybrid. When I stop and then rewind to beginning and start playing, the notes (decay) will resume.

I am wondering if this is an AIR thing.
Not just AIR sadly I think that's a separate but related issue to how the transport interacts with running notes. But we should certainly tackle it too! I think I'll do a separate bug report to keep it clean, since I was able to replicate that behavior with a lot of different plugins.

Are you able to replicate the issue where incoming clock/note data causes notes to hang when stopping the transport? I find it's easiest to replicate with something like a MIDI sequencer or workstation that sends clock data down the line.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2018, 10:48 AM   #20
lolilol1975
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,547
Default

In my bug report

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....08#post1942408

There is a missing OFF event. No record, no track armed.

edit: cfillion solved my problem; it was overlapping notes.

Last edited by lolilol1975; 01-18-2018 at 11:54 AM.
lolilol1975 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 11:26 AM   #21
LugNut
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: So Florida
Posts: 906
Default

Hi,
Sorry if I missed this...
But why all inputs? Isn't that kinda asking for trouble? I mean, in the 80s I'd be freaking out:-)
LugNut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 08:57 PM   #22
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,
Sorry if I missed this...
But why all inputs? Isn't that kinda asking for trouble? I mean, in the 80s I'd be freaking out:-)
It will happen on any input as long as you select "All Channels" and have incoming data.

It might not be optimal but I see no reason why selecting "All Channels", monitoring, and arming the track for record should result in notes continuing to play when you press STOP. So let's fix it Also, the default "Insert virtual instrument on new track" action sets up a track with precisely these options.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 09:26 AM   #23
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Incoming CC information causes REAPER to fail to send MIDI Note On/Off messages

I used to have two other hanging note sub-issues listed in this post but I need to do more tests with different preference settings to see what's really going on.

Last edited by Allspice; 02-07-2018 at 12:21 AM.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2018, 04:23 PM   #24
Cableaddict
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,883
Default

I can't any anything technical, but I CAN confirm that I have constant problems with notes stuck on, which can't be cleared with the "F3" key.

I don't know specifically what causes them, (I suspect a missing "note off" command) but it always happens when I mute a track that has a VSTi on it, & then open it again.

It probably happens one out of 20 times.

It happens with several different instruments, from several different manufacturers.

It doesn't seem to matter if there's any cc data being transmitted at the same time.

It has nothing to do with recording, per se, just tracks with input monitoring, and the transport stopped.


The only way I know to clear it is to put the offending VSTi offline, then back on again.

--------

- And It's a bloody nightmare for live performance.

Last edited by Cableaddict; 02-06-2018 at 09:43 PM.
Cableaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2018, 04:44 PM   #25
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

I'm not sure but that could be related to another bug I'm digging into where "Flush FX on Stop" results in loads of plugins not receiving NOTE OFF messages on Transport Stop. I've been meaning to do more in-depth testing when I get time.

But since you mentioned it happens when you aren't recording, just for giggles, you may want to check all your MIDI in ports with MIDI Monitor or a similar Windows program. I had a control surface in my MIDI chain that erratically sent CC data without me adjusting it- that, combined with REAPER's issue with CC data interfering with NOTE OFFs led to a lot of hanging notes.

Although that doesn't really explain why F3 doesn't kill the notes, assuming the plugins properly respond to F3 in the first place.

Can you upload a screenshot of this preferences window?


Last edited by Allspice; 02-04-2018 at 04:54 PM.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2018, 04:50 PM   #26
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cableaddict View Post
but it always happens when I mute a track that has a VATi on it, then open it again.
Maybe this could have something to do with it, in combination with other settings. Anyone else have any thoughts?
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2018, 06:40 PM   #27
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

Preferences/Plugins/VST


Make sure that the "Don't flush ..." and "Don't send ..." are not enabled both at the same time.
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 11:08 AM   #28
LugNut
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: So Florida
Posts: 906
Default

Hi,
The only time I get stuck notes nowadays, is when I run a vsti as a dedicated process. But even then not consistently.

Allspice the controls surface spurious data.....are you sure its not a ping of some sort?
Hui,for ex, sends constant super low notes constantly like..I'm here, you there? I'm here..you there?:-)

Also, jammed up midi ports will cause lags and missing data.
For ex, when adding reacontrol midi to an external midi track and leaving the default "All" channel setting on. Riding a CC fader from recontriol midi will cause havoc.
I'm not assuming you haven't thought of this as you seem to have your midishit together.
Good luck
LugNut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2018, 11:47 AM   #29
Allspice
Human being with feelings
 
Allspice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 151
Default

True, I should do a slightly better test on the issue in post #23 and see if REAPER is not relaying NOTE OFFs in that situation or if it is not receiving them altogether.

As for the clock data and transport stop thing, it seems like REAPER should ensure that note off commands get sent on Transport STOP, rather than letting incoming data take preference.

Last edited by Allspice; 02-06-2018 at 02:12 PM.
Allspice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2018, 10:24 PM   #30
Cableaddict
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,883
Default

[QUOTE=Allspice;1950125]
Can you upload a screenshot of this preferences window? /QUOTE]

thanks for the thoughts. It can't be any setting in the playback window, since my problem has nothing at all to do with PLAYBACK. My transport is not moving.

Regardless, I did try all sorts of changes to this window's prefs, but nothing helped.

As for the midi data, yes note offs ARE being sent. - If they weren't, then my VSTi's would be hanging BEFORE I mute the tracks, which is not the case.


For everyone still trying to de-bug this, I think my specific case is an important part of the puzzle.
Again:

transport stopped. many tracks in "record ready", just so I can hear these VSTi's as I play.

Any hangs that happen while playing can be cleared with "F3," but 95% of my hangs happen after a track is muted, and then I un-mute it. - And those hangs CANNOT be cleared by "F3."

It's as if the un-mute command itself is sending note information to the VSTi's.

And sometimes it doesn't happen for hours. Other times it happens every other time I un-mute.
All with the same session & the same settings.
Cableaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2018, 10:28 PM   #31
Cableaddict
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,883
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Preferences/Plugins/VST


Make sure that the "Don't flush ..." and "Don't send ..." are not enabled both at the same time.


Thx.

I don't have either one checked. Maybe I should?

- But again, these options seem to relate to the transport. Does not apply in my case.
Cableaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2018, 01:30 AM   #32
cool
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Sunny Siberian Islands
Posts: 161
Default

Bump
Has anyone solved this problem?
cool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2019, 04:13 AM   #33
braj
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 57
Default

FWIW, I 'jam' a lot in Reaper and I think this bug happens even when there is no midi in the timeline. I can just loop some section, set a VSTi on a track to record+monitoring, and play, and I think right after it loops the first time it gets susceptible to stuck notes, also I guess in time with something in the midi stream that is being somehow looped, even though nothing was recorded. But the faster and more furious I play, the faster I can invoke the issue.
braj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.