Old 05-09-2019, 04:25 AM   #561
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I work very hard to be a contributing member of the community and to do positive things.
It wasn't an attack to you. I am sure you have, np.

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Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
I do not mean to offend, but this doesn't help so much either.
Yours do help. Believe or not I was trying to "help". Anyway ... I will not post any more in this thread, I see I have not got it, my bad, I had to try.

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Old 05-09-2019, 04:29 AM   #562
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Yours do help. Believe or not I was trying to "help". Anyway ... I will not post more in this thread, I see I have not got it, my bad, I had to try.
As you can see above, I edited that out ^ before you replied. I owe you an apology, as that comment of mine was just adding to the less than optimal tone in this thread. I do believe you were just having best interests in mind. So with that, let's let this thread's focus shift to the actual theme again
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Old 05-11-2019, 09:50 AM   #563
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i have used this theme for almost 14 days,and overall i like it,Looking forward to trying it out when the Bad,sad and unfinished stuff is working.
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Old 05-11-2019, 02:33 PM   #564
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I used Walter a lot to design a theme which is very much inspired by Reason5 interface. I loved this app for many years and wanted to work in something that looks like it.


Now I've been frustrated with one thing ; the numbers of available layouts.
Because of how I coded the theme, I can't use the color tracks functions of Reaper. It's ugly what it does to my theme because I designed it like a punk, it's not really how I should have done things, but now it works pretty good and I don't know how do do it another way anyway (code is not really something I like to do).

The layouts, I'd like to use it to create multiple colored iterations of one track layout, So I would need at least... 100 layouts! I think now the limit is 20 ? I don't remember, but I recall it was not enough so I simply didn't bothered and since then I work without colors on my tracks.

If the number of layout is an arbitrary limit, I request it is increased because... Why not ? For my use of layouts, it would be very good.

Also, very simple, but I'd like to be able to lock TCP track height and lenght once and for all in walter and don't have the resize mouse cursor appear anymore. Because sometimes you want things to be minimalist and so you like to hide and forget unused options.

Thanks for reading !
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:08 AM   #565
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Please download from the first post...

Version 1.04

- Fixed on-click cell displays
- Fixed missing solo defeat on TCP @200%

Here's what I'm experimenting with:

Addressing the bad interaction for layout and scale

There is no need for the script to apply layouts, but if it is able to then that is clearly a convenience for the user. The problem arises when the matter of scale comes into play : there are 3 sizes, when you adjust A/B/C the changes are applied to all 3 scales of the layout that you are adjusting. Reaper also performs its HiDPI duties using layouts, but it does this in a way that is transparent to the user and to the script as well.

My efforts to provide functionality over this are only effective if they make life easier, which clearly the previous script build didn't So here's the experiment: I've removed all of it, both layout applying and scaling. You could always just perform these tasks with Reaper's various layout and track layout menus, now you have to.that's the only way to do it.



Please test this and feedback. My expectation is that it will remove the confusion from lack of clarity, but what's less certain is how the removal of this functionality will affect the worfkflow of using the script. If it is agreeable, I can then look at making any changes to the script that might be useful to help in doing this, without having the script do it itself.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:33 AM   #566
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Oh... Ok so now we have three layouts ? XD Gosh. Ok ok I'll wait for Reaper 7.
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Old 05-12-2019, 07:41 AM   #567
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Oh... Ok so now we have three layouts ? XD Gosh. Ok ok I'll wait for Reaper 7.

Theres always only been 3 layouts,Stop complaining and start testing.....
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:35 AM   #568
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Thanks for letting the script know who is boss! screensets/layouts ABC works again!
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:58 AM   #569
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Theres always only been 3 layouts,Stop complaining and start testing.....
So you're telling me there is no limitation on the number of tcp layout in the .rtconfig file ?
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Old 05-12-2019, 01:36 PM   #570
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There's a lot I like about this. But here's my soapbox:

Reaper has to run functionally, as is, stock, with no customization. It shouldn't require customizing to make any aspect functional. All customizing, both theme-wise and deeper, should be optional to the experience, to advance it for the user as they desire. Hand in hand with that is the need for the stock defaults to be more sensible than they currently are. That "you can customize Reaper" shouldn't simply be a way of saying "you have to customize Reaper", or it will continue to be seen as a niche product for tinkerers, which isn't quite fair.

That said, I am very hopeful for version 6 There are some small things in this beta theme (which part is housing certain buttons, for example, which makes the most used buttons on a track not keep disappearing and reappearing as the track is resized) that I immediately felt were an improvement. An example of what I wouldn't like would be for the solo button to be too small and in an unfortunate place, but, hey, you can change that Excellent UI design is more about making what's great either obvious or accessible, it's not so much about giving interface choices to people who aren't good at choosing a good design and don't even want to, or forcing them to build it. Where it creates possibilities that are relevant to them, yes. Where it doesn't yet is required to be functional, not really.

I am hoping for the best possible design, not the most options to choose from to fill in a blank slate.
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:53 PM   #571
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Reaper has to run functionally, as is, stock, with no customization. It shouldn't require customizing to make any aspect functional. All customizing, both theme-wise and deeper, should be optional to the experience, to advance it for the user as they desire. Hand in hand with that is the need for the stock defaults to be more sensible than they currently are. That "you can customize Reaper" shouldn't simply be a way of saying "you have to customize Reaper", or it will continue to be seen as a niche product for tinkerers, which isn't quite fair.
I don't think the default layout has been chosen yet. So with that in mind, please tell us what needs "to be more sensible than they currently are"? Seriously.
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:14 PM   #572
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Here is the current default from REAPER 5. Wouldn't you agree that a new user doesn't need to see all of this by default?

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Old 05-12-2019, 04:27 PM   #573
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Firstly I agree new users need to be catered for..

How much however is unanswered.

Any serious new user expects to have to learn, they probably don't want features hidden from them, and it is a truth they are a new user for 'Tending to zero %' of their user lifetime.

They will also know and expect reaper to be configurable and perhaps more complex at first than that app on their iPad they used before.


So how much effort should cockos go to cater for them?
particularly in light of their business model - which isn't all about shifting units, getting rave mag reviews and keeping a small transient yet highly intolerant User group happy.

A better system Imo is one that Kenny helps achieve which is by simply turning those new users into intermediates in 3 short videos. Problem solved
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:04 PM   #574
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Similar approach could be used with item selection too - bright name background indicates selection:
I agree, it is obvious right away which item is selected.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:14 PM   #575
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A better system Imo is one that Kenny helps achieve which is by simply turning those new users into intermediates in 3 short videos. Problem solved
While that's definitely my goal, I think it's also important to realize that many people are going to download REAPER and just start using it. And those people IMHO must be catered to with the Default layout and the Default theme as many of them will never change it. EVER!

The next level being people that will watch my videos followed by many of you who have no need and can figure out what you want anyway.
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Old 05-12-2019, 11:44 PM   #576
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Here is the current default from REAPER 5. Wouldn't you agree that a new user doesn't need to see all of this by default?

Kenny,

I love your videos!

I really like the idea of not seeing what is not needed. I’d love to see all of the track elements visibility be assignable! Save different layouts for different purposes / work flow...

But, how will a new user know that some track elements are (intentionally) missing and how to find them / add them without getting confused / frustrated?

For example: If / when, a new user clicks on a track’s ‘record arm’ button, the ‘record monitor’ button and the ‘record input’ button automatically appear but are otherwise not seen would make sense and not require the new user to do anything...

The word “scripting” sounds intimidating to some people...

Would the script come installed with v6 and have a shortcut in the default toolbar so a new user would not have to know to search in the action menu?
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:20 AM   #577
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Some feedback on usability:

- In layout C of Track Panel, the separation between where the volume fader stops and where the track name field begins is very subtle.

- Since the record button is "tucked into" the colored area in the Mixer Panel, it is hard to tell if a track is armed if the track is also colored red. It blends together and lacks immediate visual contrast. Since the design is "done", the only fix for this as i see it is to not use a certain shade of red for track color?

- The black slit on top of the chromed volume button in the Track Panel is too short, there is no reason to not have it extend all the way. It would make each value more visually distinct.

- The transparent buttons (eg the FX on/off symbol) gets drowned out if track is same color as symbol.

- A small 1px border (or something similar) on the transport bar would make is much easier on the eyes to separate elements from each other. As it stands, elements from arranger, the rate slider of the transport bar and the FX on master track all immediately look like part of the same functionality (see attachment).

- The "selection" part on the transport bar... When looking to the right, each function is visually "boxed in": BPM 100, 4/4 and Envelope settings. Then to the left you have "Selection" and a bunch of numbers after it with no box or borders. The numbers are not immediately apparent that they belong to the same selection-function, since one is shown that functions are boxed in and separated from each other, and then selection does not follow that rule.

- I find it very ugly that there is three levels of indent on the buttons on the track panel. Folder track, armed track and track within folder all have different positions of the pan/width and FX buttons for example. I know this is a more subjective issue though, as maybe different positions leads to better overview for some. (maybe this is fixable with the script, i dunno).

- The extra "M" on the track panel when muting a track is not aligned with the M button.

- As others have mentioned, it is very hard to tell which track is selected on certain track colors.

There is a lot to like here though. But as it stands, there are so many small issues regarding usability/contrast/consistency that i am a bit worried. I get the issue with a pack of strangers all wanting their say, but i think listening to feedback is extremely important when there are so many basic flaws in your design that is not directly related to aesthetics.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:25 AM   #578
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I was aware going into this that using full strength custom colors was going to quite possibly paint me into a corner regarding how I balanced other elements with large areas of '100% of the RGB gamut'. My options would appear to be a) blast every element so loud it always stands out, b) rely on users to choose workable custom colors, or c) abandon the full strength custom colors idea. The feedback I'm getting from the forum suggests c), the feedback I am getting elsewhere suggests b). Still not sure what I'm going to do.

The black slit on knobs is Reaper's code pointer. I cannot change its size. I could replace the knob with a bitmap stack created knob stack, but every one of those I use increases the loading time of the theme, increases memory usage, complicates modding and forces me to make unanswerable judgements about image load vs. display accuracy. Either way, I am reserving judgement on this until the in-progress HiDPI functionality is more mature.

Theming on the transport bar is crude and a difficult compromise between appearance and resizing flexibility. On the default theme I am required to always choose maximum flexibility, so please forgive me if its a little sparse.

Non-folder indenting for elements was something I used to offer options for in previous themes; I almost never saw anyone use them, I imagine because they degrade the folder readability unacceptably for a return of more neat looking panels. Based on that experience, I would need a lot of convincing to bring them back.

Alas, I am unable to theme the location of the meters' M indicator.

Selected status is in the very preliminary state it was just to get the alpha out, as I've said I am aware its currently a mess. Obviosuly there's little point in me even looking at that till I have a better idea of whether I'm going to do the full strength custom colors thing or not.

Please don't get caught up in this weird idea that I'm not listening to feedback; other people are mistakenly conflating that from the absolute necessity to not do 'design by committee'. I made this thread to gather feedback, obviously if I didn't want it I wouldn't have done that. I have asked for your feedback, thank you for giving it.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:51 AM   #579
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you have got alot of feedback here,so now you have something to work on.
Looking forward to what you come up with next
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:55 AM   #580
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I'm waiting for feedback on the thing I'm currently working on; the scale and layout apply stuff in the last update.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:04 AM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Here is the current default from REAPER 5. Wouldn't you agree that a new user doesn't need to see all of this by default?

apart from the automation button, there is nothing more than what would appear on the simplest mixing consoles.
You're going to tell me, yes, but the musicians do not know how to use a mixing console
-> They only have to learn!
Recording and producing music is still a profession. The democratization of the material makes it accessible to everyone and it is a good thing, but it requires a minimum of theory and basic knowledge.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:27 AM   #582
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Hi White Tie.., I just tested it all out now, when I press 'command m' to go back and forth to the mixer it takes about half a second for the mixer to register and go into hidpi mode and show the add border option.., and I am also very confused as to why the 200% option in the layout just makes everything huge in size?.., there is no scaling??.

.

.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:19 AM   #583
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Just tried this new version and found in the track panels the "default"is to small for my liking,the 150 A fits perfectly with somehiding of elements when not selected

Also the 200 A also could work for me.

One thing i noticed is if you have hide meter values when track not selected enabled in the track control panel,you have to change the size with the mouse,before it takes effect?this seems like a bug to me?
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:55 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Futur8me View Post
when I press 'command m' to go back and forth to the mixer it takes about half a second for the mixer to register and go into hidpi mode and show the add border option.., and I am also very confused as to why the 200% option in the layout just makes everything huge in size?.., there is no scaling??.
I'm afraid I know nothing about how the HiDPI stuff works on OSX.

Does anyone else with a 5k imac have these troubles?

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One thing i noticed is if you have hide meter values when track not selected enabled in the track control panel,you have to change the size with the mouse,before it takes effect?this seems like a bug to me?
Yeah, its just very fresh code. When the script sends Reaper a 'refresh all' command, Reaper doesn't refresh the meter overlays. I imagine we'll discover a lot of these little things before we're finished, all part of the process
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:43 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
apart from the automation button, there is nothing more than what would appear on the simplest mixing consoles.
You're going to tell me, yes, but the musicians do not know how to use a mixing console
-> They only have to learn!
Recording and producing music is still a profession. The democratization of the material makes it accessible to everyone and it is a good thing, but it requires a minimum of theory and basic knowledge.
In my opinion, you could get rid of everything that's already available through a simple right-click on the Record button. That's how I do it anyway, it's faster for me. I just right-click, monitor the input, select the input and activate the Record state. It's a one-click stop.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:47 AM   #586
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I'm afraid I know nothing about how the HiDPI stuff works on OSX.

Does anyone else with a 5k imac have these troubles?



Yeah, its just very fresh code. When the script sends Reaper a 'refresh all' command, Reaper doesn't refresh the meter overlays. I imagine we'll discover a lot of these little things before we're finished, all part of the process
Just thought i would mention it,No Pun Intended.LoL
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:08 AM   #587
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I think it depends if they are new users to DAWs or seasoned pros that are looking at moving to reaper right?

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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Here is the current default from REAPER 5. Wouldn't you agree that a new user doesn't need to see all of this by default?

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Old 05-13-2019, 10:15 AM   #588
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white tie

Full strength colours are great and wouldn't want to loose them.

I mentioned before but surely having some type of physical difference happen to selected items/tracks would be the way forward and this would need the devs involved.

I might be misunderstanding but it seems like to do this new theme right it needs some work from the devs to add support for some of the physical changes users have put forward?

Definitely wouldn't want to loose full strength colours. If possible..
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:25 AM   #589
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Regarding the newest script:

I take no issue with removing the sizes from the script because you can switch it from the layouts menu BUT, I did think there was a possibility that the script would replace the need for layouts in general.

Now if the layouts menu became nothing more than layout size then that would be fine. But I’m guessing that we’re going to be stuck with 100% A, 150% A, 200% A, 100% B, 150% B, 200% B, 100% C, 150% B, 200% C - which is kind of clunky and confusing.

I assume the only solution to this is that if size was independent of each layout (which will probably never happen) or that size goes back to the script? I actually have no solution.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:32 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by +NRG View Post

But, how will a new user know that some track elements are (intentionally) missing and how to find them / add them without getting confused / frustrated?
For example - we "could" remove input monitoring, record mode and even input unless you go into record. Then those things would show up. I'd assume a newbie would know enough to hit record and then "poof" extra settings.

Same could be done for routing or envelopes where you only see them when the track is selected. Keeping in mind that a newbie wouldn't even know that a recording mode exists until they learn the program much more.

Of course, these are ideas. Not definitive plans but they are a way to clean things up to see less on first use.

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Would the script come installed with v6 and have a shortcut in the default toolbar so a new user would not have to know to search in the action menu?
I would assume that the script would be installed directly but everything else is in the air. I would vote that it exists in the View menu by default.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:37 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
apart from the automation button, there is nothing more than what would appear on the simplest mixing consoles.
You're going to tell me, yes, but the musicians do not know how to use a mixing console
-> They only have to learn!
Recording and producing music is still a profession. The democratization of the material makes it accessible to everyone and it is a good thing, but it requires a minimum of theory and basic knowledge.
I would bet that 90% - 95% of REAPER users wouldn't notice if they removed "record mode" and "input monitoring" from the program entirely.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:39 AM   #592
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Here is the current default from REAPER 5. Wouldn't you agree that a new user doesn't need to see all of this by default?

They don’t need to see volume, pan, mute, solo and fx?
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:39 AM   #593
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In my opinion, you could get rid of everything that's already available through a simple right-click on the Record button. That's how I do it anyway, it's faster for me. I just right-click, monitor the input, select the input and activate the Record state. It's a one-click stop.
While true, many people don't know to right-click and more importantly, these buttons do serve as a quick reference to see what mode you're in.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:43 AM   #594
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I think it depends if they are new users to DAWs or seasoned pros that are looking at moving to reaper right?
I think it's both. Of the other DAWs I use, none of them even show (or have) the option to change input monitoring or a record mode as it's used in REAPER.

Not sure what a new user would expect but I would assume less is less off putting from a "I don't know what any of this does" standpoint.

This:



seems less intimidating to me.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:47 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
white tie

I might be misunderstanding but it seems like to do this new theme right it needs some work from the devs to add support for some of the physical changes users have put forward?
"Right" is a subjective word. More accurate would be to say that White Tie can't change everything and that some user requests are out of his hands.

For instance, I think the pan knob should go after the fader and before the Track FX. I don't think he can do that. So that's a FR that would need to go to the Dev team.

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Old 05-13-2019, 11:03 AM   #596
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Ahh yeah, that "only show if record is armed" thing really makes sense! I wasn't exactly sure what you were asking before that Kenny, but that sounds like it would really clean things up. And maybe get us usable meters back
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:24 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
white tie

Full strength colours are great and wouldn't want to loose them.

I mentioned before but surely having some type of physical difference happen to selected items/tracks would be the way forward and this would need the devs involved.
No need, I can do it. Note that selected state is also a condition in the TCP script. There's plenty I can do, I just haven't done it yet

The problems that stem from full strength colors are many and difficult, I can't promise they're going to stay. I'll do my best.

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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Regarding the newest script:
I take no issue with removing the sizes from the script because you can switch it from the layouts menu BUT, I did think there was a possibility that the script would replace the need for layouts in general.
The thing is, as far as Reaper is concerned its all just layouts. That's how the new HiDPI business does it work. The script could perhaps simplify, or clarify, how this all happens, but ultimately its always going to be saying to Reaper "...and then load this layout".

And by extension, if it fails to simplify or clarify, but merely adds a new layer of "what?" then it is, to use a technical term, poo.

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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
They don’t need to see volume, pan, mute, solo and fx?
Maybe not, for certain layouts. Maybe not if the mixer is visible. These decisions are new, we're making them for the first time, its going to take a lot of discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
For instance, I think the pan knob should go after the fader and before the Track FX. I don't think he can do that.
Yeah, I can totally do that already. But talk me into why I would do it!

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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Ahh yeah, that "only show if record is armed" thing really makes sense! I wasn't exactly sure what you were asking before that Kenny, but that sounds like it would really clean things up. And maybe get us usable meters back
Have you seen that you can resize the meters using the script?
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:25 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
For example - we "could" remove input monitoring, record mode and even input unless you go into record. Then those things would show up. I'd assume a newbie would know enough to hit record and then "poof" extra settings.

Same could be done for routing or envelopes where you only see them when the track is selected. Keeping in mind that a newbie wouldn't even know that a recording mode exists until they learn the program much more.

Of course, these are ideas. Not definitive plans but they are a way to clean things up to see less on first use.



I would assume that the script would be installed directly but everything else is in the air. I would vote that it exists in the View menu by default.
That makes sense to me!
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:32 AM   #599
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So, a few random and very uninformed and subjective thoughts from me after messing with this theme for around an hour or so (I'll admit to being fairly intimidated by posting on this thread! Heh).

Overall I really like the look and direction of this theme. It's for the most part very pleasing and a nice aesthetic evolution of the v5 theme.

My main gripe, not understanding how all this works/comes together/what's possible/etc... Is the general sizing, particularly in the TCP. While I really like the look of the layouts and the scripts awesome customizability, even the smallest TCP size only gets me to around 47 tracks visible in the arrange at one time. It would be amazing if this was at least doubled with a TCP layout size option that is very vertically thin. (I'm using a 32 inch 2k monitor).

Very much liking what's happening in the mixer. Again, it would be great if there was a layout option much like the master track layout/sizing. Smaller fonts, etc... Particularly the FX Parameter text. Would be nice to have a smaller text size there.

Overall background coloring : Would be great to have some “borders” between identical grey portions of the background in order to differentiate things a bit.

Mute / Solo Buttons : would prefer the “M” and “S” to be something more neutral like grey rather than red and yellow. That’s super nitpicky and subjective, I know! Heh.


Or does this mean I need to move from a 2k monitor to a 4k monitor? I dunno.


Overall I really like what's happening with this theme. My sincere apologies if many of the points I posted above are non-relevant/not changeable/considered Reaper feature requests.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:07 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post

The thing is, as far as Reaper is concerned its all just layouts. That's how the new HiDPI business does it work. The script could perhaps simplify, or clarify, how this all happens, but ultimately its always going to be saying to Reaper "...and then load this layout".
Right. But that doesn't mean the end user has to worry about it. Requiring adjusting things from the script and ALSO requiring that I adjust things in the layout feels clunky and counter-intuitive when it "could" all be done in one place.

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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Yeah, I can totally do that already. But talk me into why I would do it!
Because Volume and Pan go together like peas and carrots?
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