Old 05-13-2019, 12:23 PM   #601
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Have you seen that you can resize the meters using the script?
Yup, but getting the TCP elements small enough, while still being able to see the peak hold numbers in the meters is tricky. By hiding a few elements, maybe it could go to horizontal meters if that would be easier to see.

During tracking, those peak numbers are really important to me, and the more visible the better. The full meter layouts of default 5 could be really handy at a glance, but again felt a bit unwieldy. I know this is an impossibly balance to strike, but tracking is some really stressful times for many people and the clearer that gets (while again being small enough to see the project at a glance), the better
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:52 PM   #602
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While true, many people don't know to right-click and more importantly, these buttons do serve as a quick reference to see what mode you're in.
I completely agree. But I think there's something that could be done about this eventually: introducing the "right-click" as an evolution of the workflow. Less buttons and knobs, but with more options and preferences under the remaining ones. It may be a flawed idea, I'm just thinking out loud here.
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:08 PM   #603
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I completely agree. But I think there's something that could be done about this eventually: introducing the "right-click" as an evolution of the workflow. Less buttons and knobs, but with more options and preferences under the remaining ones. It may be a flawed idea, I'm just thinking out loud here.
I think that's White Tie's thinking as well. People who want these things can find them while most new users don't need them complicating their learning process.
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:16 PM   #604
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The thing is, as far as Reaper is concerned its all just layouts. That's how the new HiDPI business does it work. The script could perhaps simplify, or clarify, how this all happens, but ultimately its always going to be saying to Reaper "...and then load this layout".
Maybe it's the time to say 'it's wrong way' to how Reaper does it'.
As I wrote elsewhere, there are 2 options:
1. Higher density devices (like Retina): in such case, an application or operating system (or both) should ensure the same image (perceived size-wise) is rendered. No need to create additional, special GUI layout for this.
2. Other density devices - like big monitors with pixel density closer to standard one rather than to Retina. They might require different approach, because workspace size vs distance to eyes does matter more. On such monitors standard themes are too tiny, and Retina dedicated themes are too big. That's why they might require special layouts, with dedicated gfx assets. In reality it might be all scales from 125 to 175%. Even with step 10, it's 5 additional layouts. I don't think any of themers is going to care about it.

Just to be clear: both cases can be satisfied by creating special layouts. But those layouts are not interchangeable. If developers ignore this fact, support for HiDPI will stay on V5 level.
Seeing how many already published themes support standard dpi monitors both small and big as well as high density devices (literally none) I am pretty sure, V6 doesn't change that unless themes get more love from developers.

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Old 05-13-2019, 03:00 PM   #605
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I was aware going into this that using full strength custom colors was going to quite possibly paint me into a corner regarding how I balanced other elements with large areas of '100% of the RGB gamut'. My options would appear to be a) blast every element so loud it always stands out, b) rely on users to choose workable custom colors, or c) abandon the full strength custom colors idea. The feedback I'm getting from the forum suggests c), the feedback I am getting elsewhere suggests b). Still not sure what I'm going to do.
So, how about abandoning tinting the entire mcp/tcp panels in favor of full strength colored strips? This would let us use full strength custom colors, but still allow for a more cohesive whole + clearer selected states of panels. Track colors are used for quickly signaling type of track and/or grouping tracks together, I don't see why this function necessarily has to involve the entire area of the mcp/tcp panel.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:01 PM   #606
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I completely agree. But I think there's something that could be done about this eventually: introducing the "right-click" as an evolution of the workflow. Less buttons and knobs, but with more options and preferences under the remaining ones. It may be a flawed idea, I'm just thinking out loud here.
It is not flawed idea to me, it's simpler then it is better, less buttons and knobs is always a good idea.

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For example - we "could" remove input monitoring, record mode and even input unless you go into record. Then those things would show up. I'd assume a newbie would know enough to hit record and then "poof" extra settings.

Same could be done for routing or envelopes where you only see them when the track is selected. Keeping in mind that a newbie wouldn't even know that a recording mode exists until they learn the program much more.
The same, simplicity is a beauty, good ideas too.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:06 PM   #607
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Right. But that doesn't mean the end user has to worry about it. Requiring adjusting things from the script and ALSO requiring that I adjust things in the layout feels clunky and counter-intuitive when it "could" all be done in one place.
Right, yes - this is what I was initially trying to do. And I agree, but the problem is that the script cannot do it all in one place. To be a meaningful interaction, a control needs to know a) its current setting, and b) the effect it will have upon interaction, and convey both those things to the user. But.

BUT!

The script doesn't know what size Reaper is currently drawing a layout. So if you want to change to, say 150%_A, the script can't demand that Reaper does that, because it doesn't know whether 150% is even available, because it doesn't know what size Reaper is drawing at. Even worse, if (more likely) you want to change to 'B but don't change the size' the script can't even ask for for the correct layout.

The script doesn't know these things, but the layout menu etc do. So for this stuff to make sense to the user, it seems it must be done in Reaper, and not the script. Its looking like, I'm afraid, that is the inevitable conclusion.

However, I can and do communicate things like 'you have a track selected that is A' or 'B is the default layout', so is there a way I could do that better that would make dealing with all this easier?

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maybe it could go to horizontal meters if that would be easier to see.


That's what it does. Is this not what you are seeing? Please confirm, because there's already been a long conversation about grid lines in this thread that turned out to be a Reaper bug that I don't get.

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Maybe it's the time to say 'it's wrong way' to how Reaper does it'.
No it isn't; I'm afraid my task is to use the tools I'm given, whether I agree with your views on it or not. Though FWIW I don't.

HiDPI for Reaper is the big graphics development currently happening, and has been for some time now, and I would certainly not expect another big ticket UI feature for V6, because it is a huge task and far from finished. And please understand that absolutely none of it is my decision.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:09 PM   #608
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I don't see why this function necessarily has to involve the entire area of the mcp/tcp panel.
Users have repeatedly asked for it over the years, the V5 theme already does it the other way, so its my job to see if I can make it work.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:45 PM   #609
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While that's definitely my goal, I think it's also important to realize that many people are going to download REAPER and just start using it. And those people IMHO must be catered to with the Default layout and the Default theme as many of them will never change it. EVER!

The next level being people that will watch my videos followed by many of you who have no need and can figure out what you want anyway.
True - tho as developer or designer i'd expend as little energy as possible on a transient uninvested contrary bunch of folk who will never be satisfied.

Just focus laser like on good long form design, which I think WT is attempting, and new users will be catered for plenty enough automatically due to facing something well designed.

As a well designed car interior will take 30 seconds to familiarize.
(Apologies for car analogy!)

I don't get why experienced users have such concern for these apparant 'unable' new users.

We were all new and survived just fine. If you don't survive then its an individual's inclination issue, or a personal preference, and rarely reaper's fault.

Hiding features 'blanket' with the aim of helping, has been tried with prefs, themes, custom menus, custom configs.. & Never really works.

Hiding in context is another ball game however and I def see a benefit there.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:36 PM   #610
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I don't get why experienced users have such concern for these apparent 'unable' new users.

We were all new and survived just fine. If you don't survive then its an individual's inclination issue, or a personal preference, and rarely reaper's fault.
I think that's a fair point and I wouldn't describe what we're doing with that to be ground-breaking in the "let's get new users" realm.

It's more of a "we have to create a default and we have all of these great conditional options". So why NOT use them as a simpler default?
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:40 PM   #611
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However, I can and do communicate things like 'you have a track selected that is A' or 'B is the default layout', so is there a way I could do that better that would make dealing with all this easier?
Not 100% sure what you're asking but what I would think would make the most sense is that A is always the default and B and C can be alternatives. Leaving behind the idea that we can have a default and an A, B and C. 4 total but only 3 adjustable.

Just thought of another idea - Can you choose layouts from your script?
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:25 PM   #612
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That's what it does. Is this not what you are seeing? Please confirm, because there's already been a long conversation about grid lines in this thread that turned out to be a Reaper bug that I don't get.
With that, it needs to be so tall! You cant get too many tracks showing, but thisisnt a MUST DO OMGZORZ SHOWSTOPPER, its 100% for sure usable, it would just be nicer to be able to see more tracks and a time and still read the peak number of the meter
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:49 PM   #613
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Crap, for some reason, now the script isnt working at all
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:44 PM   #614
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i have some transport 'feedback' :

'stop' lives nextdoor to 'play'. <<<<


mess with that well established norm, you shall not do.


it's like putting the spoons in the plate cupboard to fry people's heads.


edit: i def like the theme direction.
mute/solos may be sub-optimally located / not too quick to locate with eye and hit.
pan knob on mixer has a 5 acre plot to live in unnecessarily.

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Old 05-14-2019, 07:31 PM   #615
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We were all new and survived just fine. If you don't survive then its an individual's inclination issue, or a personal preference, and rarely reaper's fault.
But the problem with that logic is that A) a truly terribly laid out program could also have a multitude of "survivors" who would say the same (since it would apply to both it doesn't really explain why Reaper should or shouldn't do something), and; B) it's not really limited to those two reasons why a user bails.

For example, as has been mentioned in the thread, there are people looking at their first recording experience, with no preconceptions or habits (though neither are dealkillers anyway if an interface works for an average, eager brain). I don't think it's a bad idea to keep them in mind. It's how all designers look at things: does this panel have any elements that aren't clear or clear enough? When I look at it do I immediately see the functions or do I have to pause for a second to remember what is what? And who am I designing this for anyway? In the design world the user is never blamed unless they don't want that user. I've always found that an odd thing here. Sometimes it's valid, sometimes though it comes from someplace else.

I like this theme a lot more than the current default. Putting solo and mute off the collapsing track panel and onto the vertical section that doesn't collapse them away until extremely minimized is great. I was thinking putting the pan knob there would clean up the panel, but then again panning isn't something one needs to access often. What else could go in there?

The trim button for adding envelopes has always struck me as weird, IMO, when you all you want is a volume envelope. Why can't the volume envelope just be created with the track and it's there from the start instead of needing to be created?, though that's not a theme issue. I just never got why volume envelopes had to be created, with leaving the track and several mouse clicks (unless I'm wrong about that and they don't). Actually, the trim button doesn't even need to have such a presence on the bar, and it could be a square of half the size and still show the info.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:31 PM   #616
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If a track clips in the TCP, is the meter supposed to show the red clip light at the top and turn the meter color yellow instead of green until resetting the clip indicator?

https://imgur.com/weo5X0b

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Old 05-14-2019, 11:56 PM   #617
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If a track clips in the TCP, is the meter supposed to show the red clip light at the top and turn the meter color yellow instead of green until resetting the clip indicator?

I actually like this,its a easy way to see when something is clipping
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:16 AM   #618
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But the problem with that logic is that A) a truly terribly laid out program could also have a multitude of "survivors" who would say the same (since it would apply to both it doesn't really explain why Reaper should or shouldn't do something), and; B) it's not really limited to those two reasons why a user bails.

For example, as has been mentioned in the thread, there are people looking at their first recording experience, with no preconceptions or habits (though neither are dealkillers anyway if an interface works for an average, eager brain). I don't think it's a bad idea to keep them in mind. It's how all designers look at things: does this panel have any elements that aren't clear or clear enough? When I look at it do I immediately see the functions or do I have to pause for a second to remember what is what? And who am I designing this for anyway? In the design world the user is never blamed unless they don't want that user. I've always found that an odd thing here. Sometimes it's valid, sometimes though it comes from someplace else.

I like this theme a lot more than the current default. Putting solo and mute off the collapsing track panel and onto the vertical section that doesn't collapse them away until extremely minimized is great. I was thinking putting the pan knob there would clean up the panel, but then again panning isn't something one needs to access often. What else could go in there?

The trim button for adding envelopes has always struck me as weird, IMO, when you all you want is a volume envelope. Why can't the volume envelope just be created with the track and it's there from the start instead of needing to be created?, though that's not a theme issue. I just never got why volume envelopes had to be created, with leaving the track and several mouse clicks (unless I'm wrong about that and they don't). Actually, the trim button doesn't even need to have such a presence on the bar, and it could be a square of half the size and still show the info.
Sure, My point is as little energy as possible should be spent specifically catering for day 1 users compared to 100 day + users.
not that that they should be ignored..

Should help them with good solid Design that helps all users anyway, and helping them up the learning curve asap are better approaches imo.

Regard vol envelopes that's one shortcut I use a lot... V
Also have double click tcp to hide/show any envelopes.

Never got why pan knobs get so much real estate, analog hang-ups or something.
Compared to all the other elements, are normally set once then forgotteb, or pan is automated, and rarely 'checked visually' by looking at the knob position on tcp or mixer.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:51 PM   #619
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When tracks are at the smallest non-collapsed size, the meter size 20 is smaller than meter size 10. Seems like it should be larger.

When meter location is on the left, I think it would be nice if the name size was a bit larger when the mute and solo buttons are vertical. That way the location of the buttons doesn't change as you resize the tcp.

More options for name size would be great. If we could enter our own number that would be ideal, not sure if that's a limitation.

I'm also missing the option to have the name size auto adjust with folder indents, looks a lot nicer when all the buttons are lined up on the right side

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Old 05-16-2019, 04:36 AM   #620
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Sure, My point is as little energy as possible should be spent specifically catering for day 1 users compared to 100 day + users.
not that that they should be ignored..

Should help them with good solid Design that helps all users anyway, and helping them up the learning curve asap are better approaches imo.

Regard vol envelopes that's one shortcut I use a lot... V
Also have double click tcp to hide/show any envelopes.

Never got why pan knobs get so much real estate, analog hang-ups or something.
Compared to all the other elements, are normally set once then forgotteb, or pan is automated, and rarely 'checked visually' by looking at the knob position on tcp or mixer.
Pan knobs have always been a problem. Designers don't know which way to jump.......
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:58 AM   #621
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Pan knobs have always been a problem. Designers don't know which way to jump.......


Without offering any hint of a solution, I've always noticed that when using the volume as a knob (which I never do) that it's not immediately clear which one is volume and which one is pan.
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:21 AM   #622
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I’ve always turn the wrong knobs either Vol or Pan knobs when using Default v5.0 themes (which i never do). I think this have the same problem.

Vol and Pan knobs should stick together like carrots.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:29 AM   #623
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The way I remember it:

Since the knob which is right beside the track name (built into the same field) and made to look somewhat metal/3D, that reminds me it is the more primary function therefore the volume control.

It actually made intuitive sense to me after trying other themes which did it in different ways.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:28 AM   #624
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I’ve always turn the wrong knobs either Vol or Pan knobs when using Default v5.0 themes (which i never do). I think this have the same problem.

Vol and Pan knobs should stick together like carrots.
I'll probably get slaughtered for this, but i've always preferred sliders for volume and pan, and if a theme gives me that, i'd be on it.

It's ok, I'm left handed. Already a minority.

Alex.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:33 AM   #625
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I'm totally with you!
With sliders, you get every information on a quick look.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:40 AM   #626
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Without offering any hint of a solution, I've always noticed that when using the volume as a knob (which I never do) that it's not immediately clear which one is volume and which one is pan.
I have solved this in my customisation by making the pan knob smaller. And I never use or show the width knob.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:24 AM   #627
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I'm totally with you!
With sliders, you get every information on a quick look.
Sliders need a lot more room than knobs though and can compromise the flexibility of a design. You basically have to make the design fit the sliders instead of having a knob fit the design.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:19 PM   #628
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Sliders need a lot more room than knobs though and can compromise the flexibility of a design. You basically have to make the design fit the sliders instead of having a knob fit the design.
yeah, i love sliders too, but that's the reason, why i use knobs.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:52 AM   #629
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One Thought would it be possible to be able to hide some elements in the mixer unless a track is selected?just like we can in the track panels?
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:12 PM   #630
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Without offering any hint of a solution, I've always noticed that when using the volume as a knob (which I never do) that it's not immediately clear which one is volume and which one is pan.
Right. My brain expects volume controls to look like a console slider, so in Reaper 5 I configure tracks to have a slider as in the mixer by using the "Standard Expanding" layout. Is this still possible with the 6.0 theme?

(I'm not a beta tester. I just find this thread interesting. I think the new theme looks great.)
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:27 PM   #631
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In conclusion:

Reaper's knobs are hard to parse.

Pan knobs are the devil and get way too much airtime, they are the saxaphone solo of daw themes - always there and no one asked for it..

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Old 05-17-2019, 02:58 PM   #632
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Right. My brain expects volume controls to look like a console slider, so in Reaper 5 I configure tracks to have a slider as in the mixer by using the "Standard Expanding" layout. Is this still possible with the 6.0 theme?
Set volume size to 40 or more, it becomes a slider.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:16 PM   #633
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The black slit on knobs is Reaper's code pointer. I cannot change its size. I could replace the knob with a bitmap stack created knob stack, but every one of those I use increases the loading time of the theme, increases memory usage, complicates modding and forces me to make unanswerable judgements about image load vs. display accuracy. Either way, I am reserving judgement on this until the in-progress HiDPI functionality is more mature.
Thanks for the reply.
As for the display acc, I am actually always reading the numbers anyway if, I need to know the exact'ness of "perfection of science, pan rotation is about visual ballpark of, there I am'isch (speaking for myself)
Was gonna say, If it is all about the size/MB'thingie per image then maby use 8-bit images or summit, but they are, it looks like.
I have yet to experience REAPER slow with any theme, using or starting, SSD though.
Anyway, *roger that* and thanks for having it in mind.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:16 AM   #634
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Looks nice overall. I'd love to see this more in-line with the Mojave Dark theme, or perhaps also a dedicated dark theme once things get sorted out.

It's already a shade darker than the 5.0 default but some areas are still painfully bright/white like the headers of the windows (transport, main window, floating FX etc) as well as the backgrounds too all the files in item properties.

See attachment.

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Old 05-18-2019, 01:27 PM   #635
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Do people really not like spectral peaks in general? I hardly ever see examples with them. For me they have made life so much easier (even though it makes theme color choices a LOT LOT harder).
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:53 PM   #636
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I love spectral peaks. For me, it's much easier to find specific spots based on frequency contrasts. Great feature.

On that note. I've been using the V6 for a couple weeks now and for the most part really like it. I couldn't get on with V5 default without wanting to look at other options.

And I prefer sliders to knobs for volume on tracks.

Those are my 6 cents in the matter.
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:01 PM   #637
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My TCP master is huge... is this a known issue?
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:06 PM   #638
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Script is totally broken here when docked too.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:00 AM   #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
My TCP master is huge... is this a known issue?
Yes, per WT...

“No scaling or script interaction yet on the master track or master mixer, waiting till the other panels are fully tested before approaching them.”
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:28 AM   #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by +NRG View Post
Yes, per WT...

“No scaling or script interaction yet on the master track or master mixer, waiting till the other panels are fully tested before approaching them.”
Thanks, I missed that.
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