Old 06-02-2021, 09:43 AM   #1
musicbynumbers
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Default v6.29+dev0602 - June 2 2021

v6.29+dev0602 - June 2 2021
  • * Includes feature branch: render normalization
  • * Includes feature branch: MIDI editor note reordering
  • * Includes feature branch: EEL2 x86_64/SSE
  • * Includes feature branch: VST3 bridging
  • * Includes feature branch: media item lanes
  • + Actions: add action to calculate loudness of selected tracks via dry run render
  • + Batch converter: support normalizing when converting
  • + Media explorer: fix formatting of absolute paths from tree browser on linux/macOS
  • + Project files: allow filenames to contain quotes on supported platforms
  • # JSFX: add option to loudness meter to reset data on playback start
  • # Media items: fix tape-mode recording option potentially being ignored [p=2449852]
  • # Render: support normalizing to digital peak or true peak
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 06-02-2021, 09:55 AM   #2
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# JSFX: add option to loudness meter to reset data on playback start
Nice!
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:31 AM   #3
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+ Actions: add action to calculate loudness of selected tracks via dry run render

How would this be different from SWS Loudness tools?
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:40 AM   #4
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Still an issue:

Tooltip from arrange bleeding thru the MIDI editor:
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:49 AM   #5
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:52 AM   #6
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Hey guys, I noticed in v0.1 Alpha through v6.29+dev0602 that reverb tails bleed into the final project render, and that perhaps that should be looked at together with + Project files: allow filenames to contain quotes on supported platforms while we're out there bug-squashin!
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:54 AM   #7
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Great catch Brad!
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Old 06-02-2021, 10:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradbeckett View Post
Hey guys, I noticed in v0.1 Alpha through v6.29+dev0602 that reverb tails bleed into the final project render, and that perhaps that should be looked at together with + Project files: allow filenames to contain quotes on supported platforms while we're out there bug-squashin!
Obviously not related to this prerelease build, but please note that these are plugin buffers with stale audio in them, not REAPER buffers. REAPER sends reset messages to plugins before rendering. If there is a plugin that does not in fact clear its own buffers before rendering starts, please let the developer of the plugin know. If you let us know which specific plugins do this, we can provide technical specifics to the developer regarding what is supposed to happen. But not in the prerelease threads, please.
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:06 AM   #9
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In RX or other similar software, you can set up the loudness and true peak at the same time. So is it possible to make them work together?
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:12 AM   #10
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In RX or other similar software, you can set up the loudness and true peak at the same time. So is it possible to make them work together?
It would be easy to normalize to whichever target is louder or quieter. But targeting both at the same time so the rendered file has exactly the target loudness and the target peak isn't just normalizing, it's compressing/expanding too, and that's outside the scope of what REAPER will support in the render process.
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:20 AM   #11
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Obviously not related to this prerelease build, but please note that these are plugin buffers with stale audio in them, not REAPER buffers. REAPER sends reset messages to plugins before rendering. If there is a plugin that does not in fact clear its own buffers before rendering starts, please let the developer of the plugin know. If you let us know which specific plugins do this, we can provide technical specifics to the developer regarding what is supposed to happen. But not in the prerelease threads, please.
@Schwa, I'm very sorry to respond here but you are blaming this on specific third party plugin coding? The list of specific plugins that do this would literally be every third party reverb and delay plugin I've ever used - the same plugins which do not have "stale audio" in them when I render in any other DAW I've used other than Reaper. Which seems a common occurrence as this has been widely reported over the years. I really think you might have an issue here of either not sending a correct/valid reset message or some other issue not related to each and every specific plugin manufacturer.

If you would like more information, I'm sure many other users would be glad to chime in (clearly as people are desperate enough to post here lol) so please let us know where you would like us to post - general, bug reports, etc.
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:21 AM   #12
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Can you start another thread please. It doesn't matter where. Or bump an existing thread. With a specific example.
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Old 06-02-2021, 11:45 AM   #13
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Seeing that I've been one of the more annoying people about this lol, I started one and created an example to start it off.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=254234

Thank you for taking a look, this has been plaguing renders forever.
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Old 06-02-2021, 01:32 PM   #14
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Default Custom perceived loudness specifications

It might seem odd in the beginning, but as I see some development resources shifting towards loudness conforming on rendering and on batch conversion, I couldn't resist the urge to ask this.

Can I have the ability to specify my own pre-filtering (loudness perception) curves and time window for the loudness conforming please?

In case anyone is wondering why, anyone who does small sampling work, like in game audio or sampled instruments development knows that simple RMS or ITU-R BS.1773.x recommendation doesn't work well.

Also the Equal-loudness contour by Fletcher and Manson is not designed for short complex timbres. There are better curves to apply for perceived loudness in short sounds like those developed at the CBS labs.

A good place to start would be the original research paper "Researches in Loudness Measurement" by B.B.Bauer and E.L.Torick, published at the IEEE Transactions on Audio and Electroacoustics Vol. AU-14 No3.

Also many engineers working in theatrical releases are using the A-Weighting or the more contemporary ITU-R 468 Weighting which yield better results in material with complex timbre.

Finally another reason that I'm asking this is that at SoundFellas we developed our own perceived loudness curves based on common game audio categories (sfx, environment, music) to help normalize our sound libraries better and confirmed their validity with listening experiments.

We use Reaper from ingestion of our captured material, to refinement, production, metadata (thanks for the awesome metadata tools people!) and exporting to all formats we need for the various stores we sell (our own, Unity, Unreal, etc.). The only thing that we do externally is loudness conforming to human perception to levels that are good for media authors. It would be truly a gift to be able to incorporate somehow our own curves or any curves we needed to the normalization process of our audio assets.

Pretty please?

:-)
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Old 06-02-2021, 02:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
It would be easy to normalize to whichever target is louder or quieter. But targeting both at the same time so the rendered file has exactly the target loudness and the target peak isn't just normalizing, it's compressing/expanding too, and that's outside the scope of what REAPER will support in the render process.
Not quite true as it's just gain into a transparent true peak limiter with one or two passes depending on how precise you want to be. I've managed it with my scripts and there's no compression/expansion involved at all: https://github.com/ElizabethHarmon/ebu-norm
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Old 06-02-2021, 02:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
It might seem odd in the beginning, but as I see some development resources shifting towards loudness conforming on rendering and on batch conversion, I couldn't resist the urge to ask this.

Can I have the ability to specify my own pre-filtering (loudness perception) curves and time window for the loudness conforming please?

Pretty please?

:-)
The question I have is why would you want anything other than the standards prescribed by the various streaming services? Don't get me wrong...I'm all for options but there's no current streaming standard that doesn't use EBU spec time windows or k-filters as far as I can tell. I've advocated for normalizing to LUFS-M given I like the Bob Katz k-meter approach but that still uses the EBU standard time windows and k-filters. You could always set up your custom curves and a customized RMS meter on the master bus and do a dry run render to check the results...

I'll be honest, too, that I don't claim to understand the REAPER way of developing so maybe this is right up their street! I'll cross my fingers for ya
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Old 06-02-2021, 02:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
v6.29+dev0602 - June 2 2021
+ Actions: add action to calculate loudness of selected tracks via dry run render
Thanks.
I think 'calculate loudness of selected tracks in time selection via dry run render' would also be handy, e.g. having 'parked' material on the tracks which should not go into the loudness calculation.
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Old 06-02-2021, 02:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delucci View Post
+ Actions: add action to calculate loudness of selected tracks via dry run render

How would this be different from SWS Loudness tools?
SWS can only analyze files (containing audio).
With this you can e.g. also analyze a MIDI+VST track.
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Old 06-02-2021, 03:19 PM   #19
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Re: Loudness calculation

I noticed something quite interesting by chance, it seems to get slower and slower when 'calculating silence', maybe there's room for improvement?



This is a dry run render ~10 mins long, at the beginning containing an audio file file of ~3mins, the rest is silence (ok, probably not a real world scenario...)
edit:
When it contains audio over the whole render it's much faster (no slowdown).
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Old 06-02-2021, 03:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Re: Loudness calculation

I noticed something quite interesting by chance, it seems to get slower and slower when 'calculating silence', maybe there's room for improvement?



This is a dry run render ~10 mins long, at the beginning containing an audio file file of ~3mins, the rest is silence (ok, probably not a real world scenario...)
edit:
When it contains audio over the whole render it's much faster (no slowdown).
Thanks! It's a fixable denormal issue with the LUFS filters...
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Old 06-02-2021, 03:45 PM   #21
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Nice, thanks!
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Old 06-02-2021, 03:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Thanks.
I think 'calculate loudness of selected tracks in time selection via dry run render' would also be handy, e.g. having 'parked' material on the tracks which should not go into the loudness calculation.
+1 for this.
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Old 06-02-2021, 03:54 PM   #23
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MCP embedded Loudness Meter - Retina vs non Retina

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18i1...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Re: Loudness calculation

I noticed something quite interesting by chance, it seems to get slower and slower when 'calculating silence', maybe there's room for improvement?



This is a dry run render ~10 mins long, at the beginning containing an audio file file of ~3mins, the rest is silence (ok, probably not a real world scenario...)
edit:
When it contains audio over the whole render it's much faster (no slowdown).
is no gate used at silence with rms? seems wrong to me.
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:36 PM   #25
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[*]+ Batch converter: support normalizing when converting
Normalize button button is placed on top of Wildcards button here (Win 8.1):
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:38 PM   #26
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is no gate used at silence with rms? seems wrong to me.
RMS has no gate specification afaik, seems ok to me.
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
+ Actions: add action to calculate loudness of selected tracks via dry run render
+ Batch converter: support normalizing when converting
# Render: support normalizing to digital peak or true peak
Thanks so much for all of these! Going to try them out asap.

Btw can confirm that there is something wrong with the Normalize button in the batch converter.
On macOS it shows up on a fixed position and doesn't move with the other buttons when resizing the window.



EDIT: Another minor thing I noticed: the warning text in the normalization settings window isn't greyed out when selecting True peak, only for digital peak it is greyed out. I suppose that is not intentional.

EDIT 2: Yet another graphical glitch: The render analysis on macOS displays the True Peak Clip measurement overlapped with the file name.



And btw, also the midi editor glitch with the disappearing piano keys (reported last +dev thread) is still here.

Last edited by Phazma; 06-02-2021 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:58 PM   #28
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The LUFS-I option, is that LUFS integrated? (Will LUFS "short term" and "momentary" also be available?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
It would be easy to normalize to whichever target is louder or quieter. But targeting both at the same time so the rendered file has exactly the target loudness and the target peak isn't just normalizing, it's compressing/expanding too, and that's outside the scope of what REAPER will support in the render process.
I just tried the RX8 demo, and yes, it (the loudness control) does indeed process the audio dynamics. I guess that is something a processor should do, not the Reaper renderer itself.

If there would be a multi option, I would suggest it to set the loudness after a priority order. For example, if the true peak is reached, the audio will be normalized to the true peak. If the true peak is not reached, the audio could be normalized to the chosen LUFS value.

Last edited by anderssvensson; 06-02-2021 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 06-02-2021, 07:53 PM   #29
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[*]+ Batch converter: support normalizing when converting
Super!
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Thanks.
I think 'calculate loudness of selected tracks in time selection via dry run render' would also be handy, e.g. having 'parked' material on the tracks which should not go into the loudness calculation.
Yes, please!

And once you have settled on these things, could we have it as a reascript API?
Code:
LUFS_I, RMS_I, Peak, TruePk, PkCJLip, TPClip = reaper.GetSelectedTracksLoudness( proj )
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:39 AM   #31
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Default Default render format regression

I'm not sure if this was reported already, but I just noticed that "(dry run, no output)" instead of "WAV" is now the default format for new projects, as well as existing projects where I haven't previously selected a specific format.
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Old 06-03-2021, 03:25 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BethHarmon View Post
Not quite true as it's just gain into a transparent true peak limiter with one or two passes depending on how precise you want to be. I've managed it with my scripts and there's no compression/expansion involved at all: https://github.com/ElizabethHarmon/ebu-norm
I was hoping that the devs might allow us to place a limiter plugin of our choosing at the point of rendering so even if we choose to render to something quite hot (RMS of EBU), this plugin could take care of the few peaks we would get.

Something like that anyway.
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Old 06-03-2021, 04:56 AM   #33
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I'm not sure if this was reported already, but I just noticed that "(dry run, no output)" instead of "WAV" is now the default format for new projects, as well as existing projects where I haven't previously selected a specific format.
Same here on a portable install.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:04 AM   #34
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Same here on a portable install.
For me it's with a regular install (and presumably portable as well, but I'm too lazy to check).
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Old 06-03-2021, 06:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
And once you have settled on these things, could we have it as a reascript API?
Code:
LUFS_I, RMS_I, Peak, TruePk, PkCJLip, TPClip = reaper.GetSelectedTracksLoudness( proj )
+1
Maybe at some point SWS could even get rid of using libebur128 and using native loudness API functions instead?
(Apart from obviously smaller size it would also benefit because SWS is using a modified version of it so it's not straightforward to update it from upstream).

Would need (from memory):
- loudness of tracks/items (integrated, momentary/short term max, momentary/short term max position, true peak, true peak position).

edit:
Hm, would also need a way to log the momentary/short term values to create graphs.


Last edited by nofish; 06-03-2021 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 06-03-2021, 06:12 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Thanks.
I think 'calculate loudness of selected tracks in time selection via dry run render' would also be handy, e.g. having 'parked' material on the tracks which should not go into the loudness calculation.
Haven't checked yet, but is there a way to get the calculated loudness via API? So we could run this action and after that do something in a script with it.

Edit:
Ok, API-support isn't available yet for normalization, as far as I could see.

Edit2:
Ok, via config-vars, it's possible to get/set normalization options.

INT: projrendernorm
&1=Normalize checkbox

&2 and &4 for the normalize-dropdownlist
0 and 0 - LUFS-I
1 and 0 - RMS-I
0 and 1 - Peak
1 and 1 - True Peak

Double: projrendernormtgt
This is the target-value, though it seems not to be stored as dB but maybe as a slider-value(?).

Though setting is only possible when the render-to-file-dialog is closed.
Getting them is only possible, when the user hits Apply/Render after altering them.
So in its current state, I could not add normalization to the rendering-features of Ultraschall-API, as I need the ability to get/set these values all the time
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Old 06-03-2021, 07:14 AM   #37
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When the scroll bar is at the top: bug.

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Old 06-03-2021, 07:35 AM   #38
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Ok I just tested the normalization/loudness features and they all seem to work nicely except for:

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
+ Batch converter: support normalizing when converting
This one is totally broken (at least on my system, macOS High Sierra).

Normalizing to any target at any level via the batch converter (all settings default/source, same output directory with different file name) creates a file containing the first segment of the sound looped a few times before the rest of the sound which can be chopped off at the end.

It is also hard to say whether some meaningful normalization is taking place at all. While the gain does change the output file contains transient spikes at 0dB on the loop points.

It is totally weird.. if you can't reproduce it and need more info or I should share something let me know.
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Old 06-03-2021, 07:39 AM   #39
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Still an issue:

Tooltip from arrange bleeding thru the MIDI editor:
Can you make a .gif demonstrating how to get this to happen? thanks!
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Old 06-03-2021, 08:15 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
Normalizing to any target at any level via the batch converter (all settings default/source, same output directory with different file name) creates a file containing the first segment of the sound looped a few times before the rest of the sound which can be chopped off at the end.
Hmm, I'm not able to reproduce a problem. Would you mind sharing a source file and a screenshot of the batch converter settings?
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