Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Pre-Release Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2021, 05:52 AM   #41
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 12,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Hey here's a question! Can LUFS normalize actually work? Since the whole thing is gated and filtered, there isn't actually a linear relationship between the sample values and the final integrated value, such that a file which integrates to -13 might not actually integrate to -12 after 1db of gain. I've seen it happen a few times. Is there a way to predict that without an iterative process? Is that already happening in the new release?
This is correct, adding or subtracting gain does not necessarily equal exactly the same change in the LUFS or LRA calculation, due to the gating. However, the effect is usually very small since the gate is at -70dB.

Also, I wish I could shout this from the rooftops, LUFS itself is not a precision instrument. The specification is not precise enough for different implementations to be comparable within 0.1 LU or so. The EBU specifications themselves allow for some tolerance because of this. So although normalizing is not linear, the nonlinearity is of lower order than the designed-in tolerance, so you shouldn't need to worry about it.

As a specific example, if you want a target LUFS-I of -23.0 LU, and your material is at -10.0 LU, and you subtract 13 dB of gain, you might end up at -23.1 LU because of a combination of the gating effect and rounding. But -23.0 and -23.1 should be considered equivalent for any delivery purposes.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2021, 03:52 AM   #42
Phazma
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,057
Default

Something just came to my mind (while working with another window).. wouldn't it be much clearer and easier to glimpse if render completion percentage was shown on top of the render window? Here a mockup that shows it if unclear:



If doing this, perhaps you might even want to remove the percentage where it is now, so that the elapsed/remaining/realtime readings are less cluttered.
Phazma is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2021, 08:58 PM   #43
Lynx_TWO
Human being with feelings
 
Lynx_TWO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: St Petersburg FL
Posts: 442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Just know that LUFS is not the end all. I just mastered an album where EVERY song was mastered to -12.5 LUFS-I exactly. They all sounded louder or quieter than each other and had to be tweaked up to about +-1.5 LUFS to sound right next to all the other songs. The ears tell the true loudness story.
I’m guessing that LUFS would have more accurate results if the Munson loudness curve was taken into consideration as a third stage, and weighted appropriately. And don’t forget, a difference of 1.5 LUFS (~1.5dB from the mean) apparently is not going to be perceived by the “average” listener. Of course to a _trained_ ear, then yes it will.

But yea, further improvements in measuring LUFS could probably be made since there’s people out there who try to defeat it by boosting certain midrange frequencies…

EDIT: all the loudness specs you’re ever gonna need: https://www.rtw.com/en/blog/worldwid...standards.html

https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...0-I!!PDF-E.pdf

Last edited by Lynx_TWO; 07-21-2021 at 09:13 PM.
Lynx_TWO is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2021, 10:21 AM   #44
fakemaxwell
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 381
Default

If you render a lot of stems at once (more than 5), you have to scroll the Loudness info dialogue. When you scroll down you lose the headings, so you have to scroll back up to check which number corresponds to which measure of loudness.

Possible to be able to resize the render dialogue to be able to see all tracks at once?
fakemaxwell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2021, 01:42 PM   #45
musicbynumbers
Human being with feelings
 
musicbynumbers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 13,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fakemaxwell View Post
If you render a lot of stems at once (more than 5), you have to scroll the Loudness info dialogue. When you scroll down you lose the headings, so you have to scroll back up to check which number corresponds to which measure of loudness.

Possible to be able to resize the render dialogue to be able to see all tracks at once?
That would be great
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
musicbynumbers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2021, 12:06 PM   #46
Phazma
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fakemaxwell View Post
If you render a lot of stems at once (more than 5), you have to scroll the Loudness info dialogue. When you scroll down you lose the headings, so you have to scroll back up to check which number corresponds to which measure of loudness.

Possible to be able to resize the render dialogue to be able to see all tracks at once?
+1 resizable render dialog.
Phazma is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2021, 05:29 PM   #47
DrKev
Human being with feelings
 
DrKev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
I’m guessing that LUFS would have more accurate results if the Munson loudness curve was taken into consideration as a third stage
But the Munson effect is about how the volume level AT OUR EARS affects how we perceive things, which where Reaper is concerned is a function of master fader level, send levels, amplifier settings, speaker/headphone efficiency/sensitivity, room size, distance and position of listener relative to sound source, etc..
__________________
Irishman in Paris

Musician / Guitar Teacher/ Guitar Tech / ex-Physicist (hence the Dr in DrKev)
DrKev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2021, 08:52 PM   #48
Lynx_TWO
Human being with feelings
 
Lynx_TWO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: St Petersburg FL
Posts: 442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKev View Post
But the Munson effect is about how the volume level AT OUR EARS affects how we perceive things, which where Reaper is concerned is a function of master fader level, send levels, amplifier settings, speaker/headphone efficiency/sensitivity, room size, distance and position of listener relative to sound source, etc..
Correct, but the point is there are already two stages in the specs where a frequency curve is taken into account, so I'm guessing a Munson curve could be implemented as a third stage since for example, -14LUFS is a specific loudness measurement based on human hearing. You'd just have to match the desired LUFS level to the proper Munson curve at that LUFS level.


Attached Images
File Type: png Frequency Curve 1 of LUFS Calculation.PNG (13.1 KB, 237 views)
File Type: png Frequency Curve 2 of LUFS Calculation.PNG (10.4 KB, 210 views)

Last edited by Lynx_TWO; 07-25-2021 at 09:00 PM.
Lynx_TWO is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2021, 09:15 PM   #49
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,287
Default

LUFS is a digital reference compared to as loud as your DAC can get. It does not relate directly to an actual SPL level that would make a F-M correction make any sense at all. You'd have to first agree on an acoustic loudness standard to match to that given digital level. Even then it would only maybe sort of be a little bit closer to subjective perception of loudness as long as it's played back at that calibrated level.

But it still doesn't help the fact that if you measure -15, and add 1db of gain, you might not end up measuring exactly -14 after,
ashcat_lt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 01:30 AM   #50
Lynx_TWO
Human being with feelings
 
Lynx_TWO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: St Petersburg FL
Posts: 442
Default

Well it’ll be interesting to see what happens. Engineers are still perfecting the spec as that second frequency weighting curve was introduced in the 4th revision if I’m not mistaken. The whole point of LUFS is that different program material sounds to be at the same volume _to the human ear_ no matter what system you’re playing it on. Loudness Units are the unit of measurement used in the process of quantifying a piece of music’s perceived loudness by analyzing the average level over time. In theory, two completely different pieces of music that register identical LUFS readings should sound like they’re at the same level. So that hardcore Belgian techno track from 1990 will have at least close to the same perceived loudness as a string quartet recording. That’s why LUFS is a better judge of loudness to the human ear than RMS. So the only thing missing now is a better model of human hearing for the weighted curve.

As per the latest white paper they even themselves state: “future complex algorithms based on psychoacoustic models may provide improved objective measures of loudness for a wide variety of audio programmes.” So if not the Munson curves, then another curve based on psychoacoustic models. The latest revision of ITU BS 1770 (4) is already 6 years old so someone somewhere must be looking into this…

EDIT: seems like they have. https://williamssoundstudio.com/tool...her-munson.php

Now we just need to use that more complex ISO 226 curve instead of the current K-weighted curve

Last edited by Lynx_TWO; 07-26-2021 at 02:14 AM.
Lynx_TWO is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:38 PM   #51
spinear
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Korea
Posts: 23
Default

Hello.
I thought the master VU meter 400 ms delay was gone but I've found out it was caused by my config.
Version 6.33 factory setting works correctly.
but soon as importing this config, the master VU meter doing delay.

I don't know what files causes this because I can't select individual files.
and I can't test one by one because reset to the factory then re-configuring taking too much time.

Should I report this is as a bug?

video : https://streamable.com/19pryg
Attached Files
File Type: reaperconfigzip test.ReaperConfigZip (48.5 KB, 167 views)

Last edited by spinear; 07-27-2021 at 12:01 AM.
spinear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 05:20 AM   #52
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 12,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinear View Post
Hello.
I thought the master VU meter 400 ms delay was gone but I've found out it was caused by my config.
Version 6.33 factory setting works correctly.
but soon as importing this config, the master VU meter doing delay.
We can improve this on our side [edit: actually this is already fixed in the current prerelease builds], but for now, uncheck Options > Preferences > Appearance > Track control panels > Reset meter peak indicators on play/seek.

Last edited by schwa; 07-27-2021 at 05:33 AM.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 06:39 AM   #53
spinear
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Korea
Posts: 23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
[s]actually this is already fixed in the current prerelease builds
Oh. Thanks again.
You guys always working hard.
From now on, I will wait and trust you guys.
spinear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 02:12 PM   #54
DrKev
Human being with feelings
 
DrKev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 244
Default

Can we please have the TCP master meter use the same meter strip graphic for loudness or RMS that the MCP Master does? It's confusing not to have the same visual representation if loudness is selected for the TCP Master meter.

Even better would be a separate meter_strip_v_LUFS.png so that we could visually distinguish Peak from RMS from LUFS.
__________________
Irishman in Paris

Musician / Guitar Teacher/ Guitar Tech / ex-Physicist (hence the Dr in DrKev)
DrKev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 05:51 PM   #55
nofish
Human being with feelings
 
nofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 10,967
Default

An option to set default metering for new tracks please (unless I missed it).
For most tasks other than recording I'll be using loudness metering and it'll get kinda boring always having to set metering from peak to loudness for new tracks.
nofish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.