Old 11-13-2021, 05:48 PM   #1
musicbynumbers
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Default v6.41+dev1113 - November 13 2021

v6.41+dev1113 - November 13 2021
  • * Includes feature branch: r8brain free samplerate conversion mode
  • * Includes feature branch: Windows very long pathname support
  • * Includes feature branch: media explorer crossfades
  • * Includes feature branch: recording files wildcard support
  • * Includes feature branch: video render/convert normalization
  • * Includes feature branch: media item notes improvements
  • * Includes feature branch: .caf media format support
  • * Includes feature branch: ASWG metadata support
  • * Includes feature branch: media item lanes
  • + Config export: encode .zip files with improved compatibility with third party unzippers [p=2496639]
  • + Media items: support resizing item notes window
  • + MusicXML export: improve encoding of .mxl with UTF-8 filenames
  • + Notation editor: avoid vertical scrolling when inserting note via action [p=2283571]
  • + Project notes: fix project notes edit box on macos [t=259606]
  • + Samplerate conversion: add r8brain free mode (thanks to Aleksey Vaneev of Voxengo)
  • + Video: support loading FFmpeg on Windows from program path when path contains UTF-8 characters
  • + Video: support loading VLC on Windows from paths that have UTF-8 characters in them
  • # Media item lanes: avoid potential crash when deleting media items with multiple overlapping razor edits
  • # Media item notes: set focus to text box when opening dialog
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 11-13-2021, 07:26 PM   #2
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+ Samplerate conversion: add r8brain free mode (thanks to Aleksey Vaneev of Voxengo)
Very kind of Aleksey!
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Old 11-13-2021, 08:09 PM   #3
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v6.41+dev1113 - November 13 2021
[list] [*]+ Samplerate conversion: add r8brain free mode (thanks to Aleksey Vaneev of Voxengo)
Does it have the right phase?

https://src.infinitewave.ca/
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Old 11-13-2021, 08:34 PM   #4
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It almost nulls with reaper’s “extreme” mode, except r8brain free has a better AA filter. so yeah i think the phase is right
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Old 11-13-2021, 10:29 PM   #5
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Well, r8b 2.9 has the phase ( polarity ) correct, and it uses the 5.2 library from Aleksey's GitHub. I'd assume REAPER does the same?
I need to do some testing
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Old 11-14-2021, 01:38 AM   #6
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The Voxengo website implies the the most recent free version is called "r8brain 2" at https://src.infinitewave.ca/, and this looks to have identical impulses with Reaper 6.
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Old 11-14-2021, 01:40 AM   #7
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Oh, well, those "inverted phase" images from src.infinitewave.ca are long outdated. In fact, the phase inversion occured only on 32-bit integer output (wrong float-to-int conversion), in pre-2.0 versions. The algorithm itself was never flawed that way.
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:06 AM   #8
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+ Media items: support resizing item notes window
The tab ordering still needs improvement.

BUT I was wondering if having 3 buttons for ok-cancel-apply is really necessary. Coming out from the fact that users here are used to work with plugins and in plugins, every change you make is applied and used immediately, no need to click a button to confirm the new settings of a plugin. So something like this could be present in item notes as well - apply changes immediately as they are made. Then there would be necessary only one button to close the dialog and the same thing would be achieved by pressing the ESC key.

And there is still an undo available.
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:47 AM   #9
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I did a little null test project:

Project sample rate 44.1kHz, r8b for both playback and rendering (obviously)

No effects or additional processing

Track 1: 96kHz / 24-bit WAV
Track 2: same file as above but converted to 44.1kHz / 32-bit float with r8b 2.9
Track 3: Project (track 1 only, obviously) rendered to 44.1kHz / 32-bit float WAV

Rendering a dry run, tracks 1+2 and 2+3 null to -63.3 (peak and true peak), and tracks 1+3 null to -inf (peak) and -145.4 (true peak).

On playback however, nulling track 1 against either track 2 or 3 produces quite random results. Skipping back and forth might sometimes result in peaks at about -6 at busy parts (so I can definitely hear the difference signal at a normal listening volume), sometimes at about -30, even skipping between the same parts. Might just be a side effect of the realtime resampling (and probably nothing to worry about since rendering nulls down to practically -inf).
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:47 AM   #10
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+ Notation editor: avoid vertical scrolling when inserting note via action [p=2283571]
Note inserting actions seems to be fine now.

There is still similar behaviour present when using actions to move cursor to the start/end of selected events. It is obviously unwanted and when it is combined with a note insertion in a custom action/script, the result is a jump.

You need to select a note somewhere after the middle of the system, if it too close to the left of the system, the scroll stays ok.

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Old 11-14-2021, 02:59 AM   #11
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Imho, this SRC is based on r8brain ver2.9, not ver1.9
Precision of filter (steeper, closer to Nyquist) and distortions are way quieter, if you work at >32bit. Probably, it works fully at 64 bit float precision, without aliasing, THD, IMD, noise etc.
So, I think you just will get maximum quality, bit cleaner. Reaper's old SRC is almost same, innoticeably worse, but with a bit gentler filter (but still sharp/steep though). Difference will be less than 1% or so.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:18 AM   #12
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+ Notation editor: avoid vertical scrolling when inserting note via action
Fixed, Ty.

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* Includes feature branch: Windows very long pathname support
Can anyone elaborate this a little?

Last edited by Vagalume; 11-14-2021 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Paul Eye View Post
I did a little null test project:

Project sample rate 44.1kHz, r8b for both playback and rendering (obviously)

No effects or additional processing

Track 1: 96kHz / 24-bit WAV
Track 2: same file as above but converted to 44.1kHz / 32-bit float with r8b 2.9
Track 3: Project (track 1 only, obviously) rendered to 44.1kHz / 32-bit float WAV

Rendering a dry run, tracks 1+2 and 2+3 null to -63.3 (peak and true peak), and tracks 1+3 null to -inf (peak) and -145.4 (true peak).

On playback however, nulling track 1 against either track 2 or 3 produces quite random results. Skipping back and forth might sometimes result in peaks at about -6 at busy parts (so I can definitely hear the difference signal at a normal listening volume), sometimes at about -30, even skipping between the same parts. Might just be a side effect of the realtime resampling (and probably nothing to worry about since rendering nulls down to practically -inf).
I was only involved initially in r8brain integration, but I would call what you've found out to be "normal" since starting resample from any random location is not the same as resampling from time=0 of all material. We are talking about "subsample" synchronization; in my opinion, it's really hard if even possible to do at all, given all use-cases like successive audio events/clips having different sample rates, varispeed, and maybe other things.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Marik1 View Post
Imho, this SRC is based on r8brain ver2.9, not ver1.9
Precision of filter (steeper, closer to Nyquist) and distortions are way quieter, if you work at >32bit. Probably, it works fully at 64 bit float precision, without aliasing, THD, IMD, noise etc.
So, I think you just will get maximum quality, bit cleaner. Reaper's old SRC is almost same, innoticeably worse, but with a bit gentler filter (but still sharp/steep though). Difference will be less than 1% or so.
One thing many SRC algorithm authors got wrong is precision attained when doing two-way resampling: e.g. 44100->96000, then back 96000->44100. It's such methodology that allows one to evaluate algorithm's precision. An important measure is peak error in such two-way resampling. Most state-of-the-art SRC algorithms have got the "average error" right, but peak error may be way off, while, subjectively, it greatly affects perceived "harshness" of sound. Moreover, in theory, two-way resampling should be "transparent", not affecting the audio at all (within resampling filter's passband).

Last edited by Aleksey Vaneev; 11-14-2021 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
+ Samplerate conversion: add r8brain free mode (thanks to Aleksey Vaneev of Voxengo)
Interesting!

I have just done some tests/comparisons now, rendering 44.1KHz sounds/projects to 48KHz and noticed that the new r8brain mode on stereo files adds a weird noise on one channel towards the end of the file. It is especially noticeable with very distorted sounds - here an example: https://we.tl/t-Ha7sjssgXL

Also, more in general, I have done the 44.1->48 comparison with the modes r8brain, Extreme, Medium (default), Low and Lowest. And interestingly I have noticed that Low and Lowest mess with the audio waveform less than the supposedly higher quality ones. This means for example if I use a limiter at a certain threshold, it will still be met when using Low/Lowest but when using Medium/Extreme/r8brain I may get peaks several dB above the limiter threshold. I would have guessed that the more similar the waveform the better the SRC quality but I may be missing something..

Also, interestingly, to my ears all except for the Low mode (and r8brain because of the noise) sound basically identical. The Low mode noticeably attenuates the high frequencies but I can't tell a difference between Lowest and Extreme HQ. Why does the Low mode sound much less accurate than the Lowest mode? And what does the Lowest mode do worse than for instance the Extreme HQ mode? I was always curious about all these SRC algorithms in Reaper and never knew which one to pick (always went with Extreme HQ because the name implies it is the best, but if it is not the default one, or only one, surely there is a reason).
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:55 AM   #16
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+ Samplerate conversion: add r8brain free mode (thanks to Aleksey Vaneev of Voxengo)
So in layman's terms, is this the best resampling mode available currently in Reaper?
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Old 11-14-2021, 03:55 AM   #17
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Btw, the 'Sample rate' text in the render window has now a darker color somehow. I guess this is not intended:

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Old 11-14-2021, 03:57 AM   #18
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Btw, the 'Sample rate' text in the render window has now a darker color somehow. I guess this is not intended:

Windows is OK.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:02 AM   #19
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So in layman terms, is this the best resampling mode available currently in Reaper?
In fact, what I want to find out too..

What does speak against setting the resample modes under project settings (playback/render) and in the render window to r8brain, leave it there and forget about it (once it is properly tested and released obviously)?
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:15 AM   #20
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In fact, what I want to find out too..

What does speak against setting the resample modes under project settings (playback/render) and in the render window to r8brain, leave it there and forget about it (once it is properly tested and released obviously)?
While we're at it, what is the quality order of all available resample modes? The dropdown menu does not seem to be sorted in this way while it probably should. If it is difficult do discern between some of the modes technically, a usual or most frequent case should be considered probably.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
Interesting!

I have just done some tests/comparisons now, rendering 44.1KHz sounds/projects to 48KHz and noticed that the new r8brain mode on stereo files adds a weird noise on one channel towards the end of the file. It is especially noticeable with very distorted sounds - here an example: https://we.tl/t-Ha7sjssgXL
Yes, if the project is the same, definitely looks like some bug.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:28 AM   #22
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Yes, if the project is the same, definitely looks like some bug.
Sorry, the files from the previous link have been rendered directly from the project with the active VST, which makes a null-test impossible. Didn't think of it first.

The problem does exist however!

I have now rendered the synth to a file at the original 44.1KHz Sample rate first, and afterwards applied the SRC to the already rendered file, so a null-test between Extreme and r8brain is possible:

https://we.tl/t-Co6LZSEQDT

Now funnily in this test the r8brain file does not have some noise in it but rather some silence on one channel at the end of the file. Either way it is an inaccuracy which the render with the Extreme mode does not present.

Btw. great to see you Aleksey collaborate with Cockos, I'd love to see more of this!
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:37 AM   #23
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+ Samplerate conversion: add r8brain free mode (thanks to Aleksey Vaneev of Voxengo)
Nice!
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:47 AM   #24
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While we're at it, what is the quality order of all available resample modes? The dropdown menu does not seem to be sorted in this way while it probably should. If it is difficult do discern between some of the modes technically, a usual or most frequent case should be considered probably.
Based on the names I would guess it should be (from best to worst):

1) r8brain free
2) Extreme HQ (786pt HQ Sinc)
3) HQ (512pt Sinc)
4) Better (384pt Sinc)
5) Good (192pt Sinc)
6) Medium (64pt Sinc)
7) Fast (16pt Sinc)
8) Fast (IIRx2 + Linear Interpolation)
9) Fast (IIR + Linear Interpolation)
10) Low (Linear Interpolation)
11) Lowest (Point Sampling)

The order in which they are displayed makes little sense to me too.. I can understand that Medium is on top because it is the default, but I agree they should be sorted based on Quality and maybe evidence the default SRC mode by calling it something like "Medium (64pt Sinc) - default".

Also I guess the better the quality, the more CPU it will take and render slower. Hence why the default algorithm is not the best one. But I am wondering, how much does it matter? I always kept it at Extreme and never noticed performance trade-offs.

I would be curious too, how the r8brain mode compares to the others in terms of CPU requirement. Maybe it give high quality and costs little resources (making most of the other modes obsolete)?
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Old 11-14-2021, 05:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Aleksey Vaneev View Post
I was only involved initially in r8brain integration, but I would call what you've found out to be "normal" since starting resample from any random location is not the same as resampling from time=0 of all material. We are talking about "subsample" synchronization; in my opinion, it's really hard if even possible to do at all, given all use-cases like successive audio events/clips having different sample rates, varispeed, and maybe other things.
Yeah I figured as much and that's why I commented that it's probably just a side effect of the realtime resampling (for the exact reasons you gave here, good that you confirmed it) and not unexpected at all.
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Old 11-14-2021, 05:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
Interesting!

I have just done some tests/comparisons now, rendering 44.1KHz sounds/projects to 48KHz and noticed that the new r8brain mode on stereo files adds a weird noise on one channel towards the end of the file. It is especially noticeable with very distorted sounds - here an example: https://we.tl/t-Ha7sjssgXL
Can you send the .rpp file, exactly as it was used for rendering, to support at cockos dot com? Thanks!
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Old 11-14-2021, 05:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
I would be curious too, how the r8brain mode compares to the others in terms of CPU requirement. Maybe it give high quality and costs little resources (making most of the other modes obsolete)?
The r8brain mode is superior in both quality and performance, _except_ if you're using playrate automation (or ramping stretch markers with "preserve pitch" disabled), in which case the previous Sinc modes produce fewer artifacts.
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Old 11-14-2021, 07:04 AM   #28
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Old 11-14-2021, 07:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
Sorry, the files from the previous link have been rendered directly from the project with the active VST, which makes a null-test impossible. Didn't think of it first.

The problem does exist however!

I have now rendered the synth to a file at the original 44.1KHz Sample rate first, and afterwards applied the SRC to the already rendered file, so a null-test between Extreme and r8brain is possible:

https://we.tl/t-Co6LZSEQDT

Now funnily in this test the r8brain file does not have some noise in it but rather some silence on one channel at the end of the file. Either way it is an inaccuracy which the render with the Extreme mode does not present.

Btw. great to see you Aleksey collaborate with Cockos, I'd love to see more of this!
Yeah if you can send a minimal test project to support@ that would be great, thanks.
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Old 11-14-2021, 07:26 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Can you send the .rpp file, exactly as it was used for rendering, to support at cockos dot com? Thanks!
Quote:
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Yeah if you can send a minimal test project to support@ that would be great, thanks.
Done.

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Originally Posted by Justin View Post
The r8brain mode is superior in both quality and performance, _except_ if you're using playrate automation (or ramping stretch markers with "preserve pitch" disabled), in which case the previous Sinc modes produce fewer artifacts.
Ah, interesting. So is it superior to all Sinc modes in both quality and performance? How about the Linear Interpolation and Point Sampling modes? I guess those are still more CPU-effiecient than r8brain? If r8brain is superior in both quality and performance, will it become the new default mode?

And regarding inferior quality on playrate automation.. I guess this applies to pitchbending RS5K too? Take pitch envelopes (with all algorithms) should still work well with r8brain though?

(.. still hoping for take playrate envelope some day btw :P)
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Old 11-14-2021, 07:31 AM   #31
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The r8brain mode is superior in both quality and performance, _except_ if you're using playrate automation (or ramping stretch markers with "preserve pitch" disabled), in which case the previous Sinc modes produce fewer artifacts.
This and maybe some more info could be available directly in the interface. Fox example there can be a "?" button right after the modes drop dowm menu (in each place/function they appear) and it would show a text with some info.
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Old 11-14-2021, 07:47 AM   #32
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Old 11-14-2021, 08:32 AM   #33
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Thank you sooo much to have implemented what it was asked on this post, and revived in April 2021 :-)

In reference to R8BRAIN (SoX etc)

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....n8zI78H1ZREFlc

Great!
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Old 11-14-2021, 09:19 AM   #34
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This and maybe some more info could be available directly in the interface. Fox example there can be a "?" button right after the modes drop dowm menu (in each place/function they appear) and it would show a text with some info.
I was about to suggest the same.
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:31 AM   #35
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Oh, well, those "inverted phase" images from src.infinitewave.ca are long outdated. In fact, the phase inversion occured only on 32-bit integer output (wrong float-to-int conversion), in pre-2.0 versions. The algorithm itself was never flawed that way.
Just wanted to say thanks Aleksey for allowing R8Brain to be included in Reaper!
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Old 11-14-2021, 11:55 AM   #36
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Just wanted to say thanks Aleksey for allowing R8Brain to be included in Reaper!
Ah, no problem. Well, I do not have to "allow" it myself, as r8brain-free-src is MIT-licensed, free for all, software. It's pretty much popular, actually, and, to date, well-tested in any application field imaginable I guess.
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Old 11-14-2021, 12:28 PM   #37
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Ah, no problem. Well, I do not have to "allow" it myself, as r8brain-free-src is MIT-licensed, free for all, software. It's pretty much popular, actually, and, to date, well-tested in any application field imaginable I guess.
Well, then thanks for choosing a license that allows it (and developing it in the first place).
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:24 PM   #38
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For whatever reason I cannot see Recent FX list when I right click the FX button in TCP/MCP anymore... It shows up in the FX browser but that's it.

EDIT: Yeah looks like reaper-recentfx.ini is not at all respected anymore?

Last edited by EvilDragon; 11-14-2021 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 11-14-2021, 02:43 PM   #39
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Aleksey Vanee Really thanks.
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Old 11-14-2021, 04:59 PM   #40
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Ah, interesting. So is it superior to all Sinc modes in both quality and performance? How about the Linear Interpolation and Point Sampling modes? I guess those are still more CPU-effiecient than r8brain? If r8brain is superior in both quality and performance, will it become the new default mode?
Point Sampling/Linear are by far the fastest, but they're HORRIBLE quality. They're really there for artistic or entertainment purposes.

As far as the new default / changing the order of the list / improving documentation of the modes -- we'll see. It'll be a while before this goes to release. For now test the mode if you like
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And regarding inferior quality on playrate automation.. I guess this applies to pitchbending RS5K too? Take pitch envelopes (with all algorithms) should still work well with r8brain though?
Yes that too
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