New FX instance oversampling feature (!)

[nepenthe]

I was able to use FX oversampling while mastering a track (in 6.54 - right click in your FX chain) and, wow... what a cool feature (and free!). Big thanks to the devs for that one. :thumbsup:

[JonLinnarson]

It's been available for a while in the dev releases. Didn't realize they added it to the official version now. Works very well in my experience! Opens up a whole new world for using old and otherwise aliasing riddled plug-ins.

gbSoundLab Tape Bus is one of the plug-ins I use this feature with. Great sounding free tape saturation plug-in (try it on a drum buss without touching any of the controls, trust me) that has tons of aliasing, but oversampling it 4x gets rid of practically all aliasing. Soundtoys plug-ins can also benefit from 2x or 4x OS. Unless you want them to sound really dirty, that is.

[hexSPA]

Just wanna give props. Haven't used it yet but this has been something I've been - and I'm sure many others have also been - looking forward to. Thanks reeper

[daverich]

I waiting/hoping for the Dan Worral video on this

[Punchipum]

Could be nice the option of oversampling just during rendering.

[Hank(ITA)]

Great feature.Maybe I'm getting too obsessed with Aliasing & OS,but this makes me very happy

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

Is this something that should be done as a matter of course? Or can it be not good if it's applied when not needed?

[Punchipum]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Is this something that should be done as a matter of course? Or can it be not good if it's applied when not needed?

See Dan Worral's video.

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

You can't just answer? I've watched a lot of his videos, so I'm not lazy. But I'm sure there's a less arrogant answer than "sEe dAn WoRraL's vIDeO".

What's the point of having a forum?

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Is this something that should be done as a matter of course? Or can it be not good if it's applied when not needed?

no it shouldn't be used all the time. higher cpu, more latency, not all plugins are compatible. some already oversample.

you can see me explain in this video at 20:10
https://youtu.be/1JjmoN7yAdw

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

no it shouldn't be used all the time. higher cpu, more latency, not all plugins are compatible. some already oversample.

you can see me explain in this video at 20:10
https://youtu.be/1JjmoN7yAdw

Awesome! Now THAT is how you interact on a public forum. Much appreciated.

So, you're him? I've watched a ton of your videos. You've been a great help over my Reaper journey. Thank you.

[nepenthe]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Is this something that should be done as a matter of course? Or can it be not good if it's applied when not needed?

It is a great feature if you're using a plugin which generates harmonics but does not feature oversampling. For example, I've been using it on Softube plugins such as Tape and the Germanium compressor which don't, to my knowledge, feature oversampling.

But not something you should apply across the board. There are many plugins which already allow oversampling or may internally oversample (eg, Newfangled's Elevate mastering limiter oversamples to 96k, but this isn't mentioned in the UI anywhere). I believe there are also some reasons why you should stick with a plugin's implementation of oversampling if possible (Dan Worral explains this in his oversampling video).

[richie43]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Awesome! Now THAT is how you interact on a public forum. Much appreciated.

So, you're him? I've watched a ton of your videos. You've been a great help over my Reaper journey. Thank you.

This is not a Dan Warrol video, but it's equally awesome and useful! Subscribe to both YouTube channels!

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Punchipum

Could be nice the option of oversampling just during rendering.

You have it already.

1. Choose the highest sample rate in project settings
2. Turn off allowing projects to set sample rate in prefs/audio/device
3. Turn on "use project sample rate" in the render window.

[Punchipum]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

You have it already.

1. Choose the highest sample rate in project settings
2. Turn off allowing projects to set sample rate in prefs/audio/device
3. Turn on "use project sample rate" in the render window.

Nice trick!! i'll have to try it! But it would not be the same as selectively oversampling certain tracks.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Is this something that should be done as a matter of course? Or can it be not good if it's applied when not needed?

It also introduces pre-ringing. It will probably be inaudible, but it can take a bit of punch out of percussive material in some cases. Best to listen to see if you can hear any benefit and judge it on a case-by-case basis.

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Punchipum

Nice trick!! i'll have to try it! But it would not be the same as selectively oversampling certain tracks.

No, I guess not. But there's no benefit to using it selectively, is there? Apart from making some pretty boring fx, I think it's safe to say aliasing is something to avoid whenever possible.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

No, I guess not. But there's no benefit to using it selectively, is there? Apart from making some pretty boring fx, I think it's safe to say aliasing is something to avoid whenever possible.

There is actually more reason to be selective than to oversample everything unless you are completely certain that:
1) you don't have plugins that are already oversampled natively and
2) you don't have plugins that don't do well oversampled.

I rendered some projects your way and after testing the same projects rendering with specific plugins oversampled, I stayed with being selective. There were some obvious issues somewhere, but too time consuming to suss out (and unnecessary when I can oversample selectively).

As far as I know, there is almost zero benefit oversampling things that don't add harmonic content (saturation, like tape and console emulation), so you end up with unnecessary CPU slamming.

I use quite a bit of Acustica Audio stuff, so that throws another reason for me to not oversample entire projects.

Check out some of the videos mentioned in this thread, there is some very specific info about this. There IS such a thing as too much oversampling. And it's a real thing that some plugins just don't behave when oversampled. It would be nice if it were more clear-cut, I wanted it to work. But it's probably why Reaper has been developing these new oversampling options, since the way you described has been possible for a while now.

[Hermetech Mastering]

Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to oversample the OVC-128 clipper, for example, as it's already oversampled 128x (the clue is in the name).

I'm gonna have a go at oversampling just the Chandler Germ Comps in my mastering chain today, see if I can hear a difference. I presume it will increase render times a fair bit.

[JonLinnarson]

Originally Posted by nepenthe

It is a great feature if you're using a plugin which generates harmonics but does not feature oversampling. For example, I've been using it on Softube plugins such as Tape and the Germanium compressor which don't, to my knowledge, feature oversampling.

Softube's plug-ins are oversampled, you just can't control it yourself. I don't think you would gain much by using further oversampling outside of what the plug-ins do themselves, but you could always experiment and see what works best for you.





Because I can't seem to get Softube plug-ins to work in PluginDoctor I did the spectral analyzer test instead and you can see that most of the harmonics are cut at Nyquist or just below. This is the same for all of the Softube plug-ins I own. If I could get them to work in PluginDoctor you would see the sharp IIR filter (I'm guessing IIR because of the low latency) at Nyquist that prevents the harmonics to bounce back into the audible spectrum.

In Softube Tape it seems like only the loudest harmonics are cut at Nyquist, so I'm wondering if they have two saturation algorithms (one for the pre-amp and one for the tape maybe?) and they only cut the harmonics at Nyquist from one of the algos? As you can see in the Tape image the harmonic (the 3rd) I've placed the arrow under is cut at Nyquist while the 5th seems to go way above Nyquist and then comes back completely unharmed to the right in the image. Weird.

[RJHollins]

Selective vs whole-chain oversampling.

This will get many of the same questions" 'What to choose ?'

The main warnings seem focused on a plugins possible built-in OS. Some we see ...
others hidden.

ok ...

Assuming that many are using 44.1 or 48k as their base Samplerate for a session.

The question becomes ... WHAT is the difference to actually select the entire
FX Chain to run, say, 2x ... that effectively puts that Track at 88.1 or 96k ?

sure ... could just as easy run the Session natively at those higher Rates [if CPU can handle], but that is one of the guiding limitations/decisions.

2nd concern: any plugin with built-in OS. Is this NOT an issue, UNLESS, said Plugin can NOT run at 96k ?

[I'm intentional limiting the option at 96k due to known limits of several WAVES plugins for example].

The advantage and flexibility of selectively running native, or OverSampled means that portions of a Projects Track can be OS'd, and then RENDERED ... which would free up other Tracks to be treated as well ... allowing CPU challenged Sessions the Option.

I'm asking Questions about all this, which boils down to:

Why should there be any concern running a native 44.1/48 session with full fx-chain at 2x ? [selectively]. ?

[foxAsteria]

Anybody got an example of what happens when trying to run a plugin at a higher samplerate than it supports? I haven't encountered it yet. Just no sound or what?

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Anybody got an example of what happens when trying to run a plugin at a higher samplerate than it supports? I haven't encountered it yet. Just no sound or what?

on my mac any of the soundtoys plugins crash reaper past 192/4x oversample. I haven't tried many others.

[hexSPA]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Anybody got an example of what happens when trying to run a plugin at a higher samplerate than it supports? I haven't encountered it yet. Just no sound or what?

S-Gear simply says, "This sample rate is not supported."

[DJ ALX]

Next request: Bulk instance oversampling possible in the Project Bay / FX Bay window.

If you have 40 instances of a channel strip that can be heavily oversampled like bx_console SSL 9000 J, its a hassle to go through each one of them to enable oversampling.

[hexSPA]

Originally Posted by DJ ALX

Next request: Bulk instance oversampling possible in the Project Bay / FX Bay window.

If you have 40 instances of a channel strip that can be heavily oversampled like bx_console SSL 9000 J, its a hassle to go through each one of them to enable oversampling.

That would be nice. FX grouping in general. I know someone made an extension but I haven't installed it yet.

[Frappa]

IMO we would also need 'undersampling'/'downsampling'/'SR-rate-factor-change'.

Working in 192 kHz has some benefits (lower low-latency-operation, no need for chain or fx oversampling, assured future for your project masters, ...)

What do you think?
https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2557344

[RJHollins]

Here's a request ....

It would be useful if we could select several plugs in the Chain, and set their OS all in one get go. [not talking entire Chain ... just the ones selected]

Currently have to set each one individually ...

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by RJHollins

Here's a request ....

It would be useful if we could select several plugs in the Chain, and set their OS all in one get go. [not talking entire Chain ... just the ones selected]

Currently have to set each one individually ...

you can already. fx chain window, select multiple, right-click

[RJHollins]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

you can already. fx chain window, select multiple, right-click

Had already tried that ... only the first selected gets set to the OS setting.

WIN-10

[EpicSounds]

that must be a mistake. doesn't seem intentional as everything else in the menu applies to selection

[RJHollins]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

that must be a mistake. doesn't seem intentional as everything else in the menu applies to selection

I thought the same :|

[Justin]

Originally Posted by RJHollins

Had already tried that ... only the first selected gets set to the OS setting.

WIN-10

ah thanks, fixing!

[RJHollins]

Originally Posted by Justin

ah thanks, fixing!

wow ... cool ... Thanks for looking at this, Justin.

Will certainly make my workflow more efficient

[hexSPA]

Is there a way to look at which plugins are oversampled; like an overview/matrix? I looked in the Project Bay but it doesn't seem to indicate whether a plugin is using this feature, nor is there a way to toggle it. Maybe the team can add this or maybe I'm not looking in the right spot. Thanks.

[Frappa]

Originally Posted by Frappa

IMO we would also need 'undersampling'/'downsampling'/'SR-rate-factor-change'.

Working in 192 kHz has some benefits (lower low-latency-operation, no need for chain or fx oversampling, assured future for your project masters, ...)

What do you think?
https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2557344

Please correct me, if I'm wrong ...

I just would like to run some plugins, for example a Kontakt-instance, in 44.1/48 kHz within a 96 kHz or 192 kHz project.

Instead of letting the Kontakt-engine 'upsample' it's mostly 44.1/48 kHz libraries (which eats a lot of CPU), I would like to let Reaper do this simple? calculation-process (x2, x4, ...)