v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022

[EcBaPr]

the grouping changes look cool.. would be great to allow markers to be added to groups also.. so you can have them grouped with other markers and/or media items and/or regions etc..

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by schwa

We have reverted these features for some internal reimplementation, and to simplify development of the new track media/razor edit grouping feature. The lane play marker and lane collapse features will be back in a future build.

I fully accept the responsibility of using a dev build, but what will happen when I install this and then open a project which I comped using play markers?

not a big deal, just wondering

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

One limitation I see with the new media item/razor edit track grouping is there doesn't seem to be an easy way to disable a specific group on the fly without going into the track grouping parameters/group matrix window and disabling there. Maybe at some point you could consider adding actions to enable/disable/toggle a specific group in addition to the Toggle all track grouping action?

Not tried the feature yet but..

This is where a master and slave system might work for this so you could do things like have an item on the parent track that always affects all slave items but the slave items can be moved freely underneath it

This is what folder items are like in most DAWs and although this system will be able to other things too. This would be a great way of giving us basic folders (well, manual ones instead of auto adjusting ones like in cubase etc).

[schwa]

Originally Posted by Jae.Thomas

I fully accept the responsibility of using a dev build, but what will happen when I install this and then open a project which I comped using play markers?

not a big deal, just wondering

The project will sound different, and if you save it using a version of REAPER that doesn't support lane play markers, the lane play markers will be lost.

I recommend you make a backup of any projects that depend on lane play markers and also keep an install of +dev0705.

I'm sure you know this, but it's fine to have multiple regular installed versions in different directories, no need to install portably or whatever. I have many REAPER installs on the machine I am using at the moment:

[X-Raym]

Away from reaper but does the RRM enhancement take care of the long region name truncation issue ? https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183187


(all the other stuffs looks very promising !)

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Not tried the feature yet but..

This is where a master and slave system might work for this so you could do things like have an item on the parent track that always affects all slave items but the slave items can be moved freely underneath it

This is what folder items are like in most DAWs and although this system will be able to other things too. This would be a great way of giving us basic folders (well, manual ones instead of auto adjusting ones like in cubase etc).

Ah This is possible to do. yay!

Would still like to see the master be more intelligent (at some point later down the development line) when the slaves are lots of smaller/shorter items (say if they were individual drum hits).

I'm still testing but things like changing the start or end of the master item should not shorten all the items within. Instead, say you shorten the right edge of the master item. The slave items should only shorten if the master item right edge ends inline with that item AND, maybe if the slave item then becomes so short the right edge touches the left, maybe it should be deleted? If the user releases the mouse button that is and be undoable too of course. As an option?

Also. Time stretching the master could relatively stretch the slaved items or even reversing the master would do a relative reversal on all the slave items too.

I'll play with it more though first but I've always wanted the master/parent folder items most daws have and this gets us close with a few tweaks!

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Not tried the feature yet but..

This is where a master and slave system might work for this so you could do things like have an item on the parent track that always affects all slave items but the slave items can be moved freely underneath it

No this is absolutely not what I want. I just expressed a need to easily enable/disable individual groups, a need which wasn't as great before track based edit groups existed.

[musicbynumbers]

Bit of a side note but Just realised that track grouping is retained when copying and pasting from project to project which is awesome but..

If the project you are pasting to already has a group 1 set up then the pasted tracks get grouped in with that same group. Would it be better if the pasted items got assigned to a group that wasn't being used or ideally, maybe reaper should ask if you want to merge or create a new group?

Also. the group names don't copy in that same above scenario.


Also, is grouping stored with track templates? That could be useful if it isn't? I'll give it a go tomorrow!

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Time stretching the master could relatively stretch the slaved items

Use razor edits for this. A razor edit on a group leader track will be mirrored on all grouped tracks.

[musicbynumbers]

As a down the line feature. It would be lovely if there could be the option to have a coloured box around the master item that also encompasses any slave items so it can easily understood what is being edited. I guess we kind of have this when the master item is selected with a razor but would be nice for normal move/copy/edge adjust too.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

Use razor edits for this. A razor edit on a group leader track will be mirrored on all grouped tracks.

I did just try that and realise that would work sorry

regarding time stretching at some point, a mouse modifier to give us a stretch whereby the start of items gets stretched but the contents stay at "1" rate would be great for adjusting things like cut up drum hits, vocal lines (cut up into single words) without stretching their transients unnecessarily and just moving their relative start position.

I would use this a lot for sound design work too.

In the future of course!

[musicbynumbers]

Along with relative edge editing (from master to slave).

Another big one would be relative fade ins so that fading in the master doesn't fade in all of the smaller slave items but only fades in any items that have the same relative start/end point.

Basically, Anything that can make cut up slave items (that have lots of gaps in them) act as if they were the same length as the much longer "containing" master item (when editing) would be very powerful here.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

No this is absolutely not what I want. I just expressed a need to easily enable/disable individual groups, a need which wasn't as great before track based edit groups existed.

No worries! I'm just happy it's already there (Master and slave stuff I mean)

As for toggling groups - There is a action to toggle all grouping but not sure about each group individually (just checked and there's a script I think with Reapack to do that from "Amalgalma").

Maybe mouse modifiers might be a good way to do that as you can set to ignore grouping there too if you wanted a very quick way of toggling it but I think most of us are running out of mouse modifiers these days

There's mouse modifier, top and bottom half of items too which might give you a way of doing it fast too.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

That's one of the many things to be worked out. Currently items are grouped if either encapsulates the other, but not if they only overlap on one edge.

I say that would be great as an option.

If not though.. I see myself wanting it slave items to have their edges to be inside of master item ranges for them to still be considered affected.

If items outside were also affected then this would cause havoc with drum editing for instance.

but there's always corner cases so both ideally as an option?

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

No worries! I'm just happy it's already there (Master and slave stuff I mean)

As for toggling groups - There is a action to toggle all grouping but not sure about each group individually (just checked and there's a script I think with Reapack to do that from "Amalgalma").

Maybe mouse modifiers might be a good way to do that as you can set to ignore grouping there too if you wanted a very quick way of toggling it but I think most of us are running out of mouse modifiers these days

There's mouse modifier, top and bottom half of items too which might give you a way of doing it fast too.

Hey musicbynumbers,

I think a lot of the features you are requesting are what folder tracks do in Cubase and similar. Track Groups are a different animal entirely. I'm as passionate as you are regarding folder tracks (I.e. as editable containers) but that's not what Track Groups are... and I'm afraid to derail the DEVs from following industry norms in this regard. Let's let them focus on Track Groups (traditional track groups!) functionality and then hammer them for editable folder tracks another time.

Not trying to be brusk or offensive, I'm just afraid to derail the Devs on such a MAJORLY important feature.

Cheers,

Andrew K

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Thonex

Hey musicbynumbers,

I think a lot of the features you are requesting are what folder tracks do in Cubase and similar. Track Groups are a different animal entirely. I'm as passionate as you are regarding folder tracks (I.e. as editable containers) but that's not what Track Groups are... and I'm afraid to derail the DEVs from following industry norms in this regard. Let's let them focus on Track Groups (traditional track groups!) functionality and then hammer them for editable folder tracks another time.

Not trying to be brusk or offensive, I'm just afraid to derail the Devs on such a MAJORLY important feature.

Cheers,

Andrew K

That's fine. These things are still important in use for most track grouping anyway I think regarding how fades, item edges etc are treated for multi track editing. If you mean more for comping then I see what you mean but this feature still needs non consecutive slaved items to not behave as if they are the same length as the master item or things will get messy fast.

I think we pretty much have a manual way of doing basic folder items now using the master slave system and that's good enough for me for a while as who knows when folders will be here (I'd still love to see tweaks to subprojects too) but if I was to edit drums using this I might be inclined to create a master item on the parent track anyway and do it that way as much as possible for convenience as you can also shrink the child tracks down and treat it like a folder and still see a semblance of a waveform.

(Would still love to be able to hide those collapsed tracks completely though devs at some point as it can get messy with loads of them)

[musicbynumbers]

+ Media item fixed lanes: actions to move media items up/down by lane respect item and track grouping
+ Media item fixed lanes: changing lane solo affects other selected or item-edit-grouped tracks
+ Mouse modifiers: set default media item shift+alt (shift+opt) click behavior to create razor edit area

Thanks! These seem to work well so far and are a thing of beauty for sure!



Love the media item performance option too on the perf meter!

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by sonictim

To me, the expected behavior for Track Grouping is, when enabled, if you do one thing to a track it will do it to all the other tracks. So if you select one track, the rest should select with it. If you want to run an action on only one track in the group... Suspend track grouping, and run the action.

Fully agree with this. There shouldn't really be a lot of logic to track-based edit groups. What happens on one track should happen on the other tracks. That is the basis of track-based edit groups. Making this contextual isn't really track-based by definition then and like Thonex said is more about folder tracks/item containers than it is track-based edit groups. I think sonictim's suggestions for track re-sizing, adding plugins follows the group etc. for down the road as this matures are very good as well.

[musicbynumbers]

bug disabling track grouping using the "track grouping enabled" menu option doesn't seem to work here. Moving a master item still moves the slave items.

It only works as expected if I go into the grouping panel and untick "Group Enabled".

[musicbynumbers]

These are the types of behaviours I still think need addressing so that they are relative to the master items edge. Crossfading and edge adjustment will affect comping and are not just about wanting folder items. Only the items inline with the edge should get adjusted

Maybe as an option within the group so we can keep this behaviour if needed but if I edit drums and want to say cut out most of the bleed on say toms. I'll end up with gaps and don't want the items with gaps in them to behave differently to items of the same length as the master right?

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

These are the types of behaviours I still think need addressing so that they are relative to the master items edge. Crossfading and edge adjustment will affect comping and are not just about wanting folder items. Only the items inline with the edge should get adjusted

Maybe as an option within the group so we can keep this behaviour if needed but if I edit drums and want to say cut out most of the bleed on say toms. I'll end up with gaps and don't want the items with gaps in them to behave differently to items of the same length as the master right?

I definitely see your point, but my question would be, why would you make a track edit group for this in the first place? Doesn't seem like there would be much benefit.

[ferropop]

Will there be some thought on :

1. Temporary track grouping (ala Cubase). Similar to how selecting multiple tracks and moving the volume faders affects all selected tracks... this could exist ad-hoc without establishing Leader/Follower relationships.

2. Grouping VST automation lanes (ad-hoc)... ie, boosting a Filter cutoff on multiple track at once. Already possible using Razor Edits, but manually.

ie, if Arturia Filter Cutoff existed on two grouped tracks, the ability to draw on one and have it echoed on the other.

[anomar]

Interesting with groups as it is now.
I put some trks for example in group1, and mark only razor edit. Then a put the same trks in group2 and mark volume, mute and solo. So, when I turn on grp1 only the edit takes place, grp1 and grp2, edit and mix, only grp2 active, solely mix. I can't remember exactly but that seems to be what Ptools does.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by schwa

v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022

• + Batch converter: allow window to be resized to a smaller minimum height

Excellent
Thank you

[sockmonkey72]

This may be related to the behavior Sexan noted, above. Top track is track leader, bottom track is track follower. Even if there is some logic to handle when items are "associated" for purposes of moving, I don't think this should apply to cuts.

The associative logic for moving should apply in this case, as well, I would argue (but that's a different discussion, I guess).

Regarding this "associative" property: once two items are associated, there's no way to get out of it without disabling the group, which is maybe a good argument for easy suspend/resume of track groups at a keystroke or mouse mod. Also, some kind of a visual hint that this association exists would help to better predict what's going to happen.

The behavior shown in the GIF is identical if both tracks are lead/follow, and also if "selecting one grouped item selects group" is enabled. In the latter case, it's even stranger, because the lower item isn't selected, either, unless it's "associated".

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Moving a master item still moves the slave items.

Just a friendly reminder (without discussion) that it's now called "Lead" and "Follow".

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

I definitely see your point, but my question would be, why would you make a track edit group for this in the first place? Doesn't seem like there would be much benefit.

Mainly this example would be so you can make the top track master/lead and the others below it slave/follow so that the master item acts as a container and master editing point for items below it.

But, if this was say drums. You could do stuff like cut out bleed on say the Tom tracks (so there's now gaps and everything is not the same length and then get everything to follow.

I would use it this way for drum editing real drums too because I can then cut out bleed and edit without messing up other items by having the track at the top as the master/lead one

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Just a friendly reminder (without discussion) that it's now called "Lead" and "Follow".

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Very good point. Thanks! Will do from now on

[musicbynumbers]

Bug - FFMPEG video not playing back in 707 but works fine in 705.

Very strange but I just get a black screen now in the video window

I've forced reaper for a few months now to just use FFMPEG for decoding (worked better for me for some reason) but 707 doesn't show video. Reverting to 705 and it's ok again.

EDIT I do have a video processor on the master monitor fx (screensaver preset) that is used to automatically turn the video screen black after a minute due to it being an OLED. Maybe that's it? I reverted before I could test this as work due this morning but I'll test this later with it off if you want?

Let me know if you need more info to pin point it.

[svijayrathinam]

In 6.63+dev0707...when I open a project with video item, the video window is black. It doesn't show any video in the video window.


I rolled back to 6.63+dev0705, the same project video shows perfectly in the video window.


Mac OS Monterey 12.4
Mac Pro Late 2013

[hans]

I can't describe the happiness about the group edit stuff!! As I'm working everyday with sound effects recordings with multiple microphone setups it will become so much easier for me now. THANKS! <3

[amagalma]

Originally Posted by schwa

v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022

• * Includes feature branch: track media/razor edit grouping

Thank you very much for this devs!


Could you make it so that splits made to an item under the mouse cursor be reflected to the relevant items in the follower tracks? Thanks!

edit: Also, are there new undocumented "groupnames" for GetSetTrackGroupMembership, or not yet implemented?

[AZpercussion]

I've tested new awesome grouping functions. Here some thoughts and bugs:

1. There is need to be able temporary switch off grouping for razor editing.
So, as Reaper users used to this option influence on editing: Toggle item grouping override, it would be convenience to have an option like...
"Razor area grouping obeys to the item grouping override option".
Moreover new auto item grouping already obeys.


2. New auto item grouping have strange behavior.



For now it convenient if lead item is wider then all followed items.
In other cases I can't be sure I'll get predictable behavior.
So there is two ways:
- Allow auto grouping for partially crossed items (maybe depend on length percantage)
or
- Off the auto grouping if lead item less then followed one.
Honestly I can't say for now which I prefer. But something smart depended on length percantage would be better, I guess.


3. Here I try to remove part of razor area when all tracks are lead. There is some glitches.




4. Dynamic split doesn't applyed on grouped items.




5. Fades on selected or grouped items are broken.

[vsgrt]

Originally Posted by schwa

v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022[*] * Includes feature branch: improve experimental silent-track CPU reduction option to include FX tail length

Even when this is disabled in settings (and disabled individually on the plugin), this messes with the delay plugin "Fuse Audio Labs Bucket-500" (https://fuseaudiolabs.de/#/pages/product?id=300808669)

I also tried the different compatibility settings to no avail.

The echo feedback of the plugin cuts off as soon as the sound drops off.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Only the items inline with the edge should get adjusted

If the items are all selected as in your screencap, the behavior is the same as it always has been, and other non-aligned selected item edges will also be edited if the mouse modifier "move edge (relative edge edit)" (which is the default) is used. Those edges will not be edited if the mouse modifier "move edge" is used.

In other words the behavior in your screencap is not new and is not affected by the track grouping feature.

If the other items are *not* selected then the new track grouping behavior takes over and only items on follower tracks whose edges line up are edited.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by svijayrathinam

In 6.63+dev0707...when I open a project with video item, the video window is black. It doesn't show any video in the video window.

Ah, oops, will be fixed in today's build.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by schwa

If the items are all selected as in your screencap, the behavior is the same as it always has been, and other non-aligned selected item edges will also be edited if the mouse modifier "move edge (relative edge edit)" (which is the default) is used. Those edges will not be edited if the mouse modifier "move edge" is used.

In other words the behavior in your screencap is not new and is not affected by the track grouping feature.

If the other items are *not* selected then the new track grouping behavior takes over and only items on follower tracks whose edges line up are edited.

Ah I must have missed not having the items selected. I'll try again.

I actually was going to mention that the follow items didn't always get selected but it seems intentional so all good

It might be a bit fiddly editing drums with this way if you accidentally select something but I'll try it out. Probably good to have both options although this might be better as mouse modifiers or a group option? Mainly because I'm not sure how useful the behaviour is when the item is selected? I might be missing a workflow scenario though.

[STOP]

Originally Posted by schwa

v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022
[*]+ JSFX: sstillwell/randomizer supports 90-style note-offs [p=2575240]

Thank you!

[musicbynumbers]

Just tried editing edges with the leader unselected with a drum setup.

It would be great as an option (not by default) if the follower item edges were "picked up" as the leader item edge when past them (same goes if all tracks were /leader/followers so any item affects any item on all tracks).

I just tried grouping and editing some drums with the tom items edited to gate out noise (so much shorter bits of audio than the other tracks) and I can see the default behaviour is actually better most of the time as I wouldn't want these tom track items to have their edges "picked up" and changed by other items but in sound design examples I definitely would for a lot of things (as we are often trying to shorten a sound or lengthen a sound to fit) so a mouse modifier would be great for this.

I did try both "just move" and "relative edge edit" and both gave the same results with non selected items? Maybe this can be adjusted so one of them picks up other item edges as it goes by?



Also. I also realised the crossfade was my bad too because I had it set to relative as my default (for sound design work) but have now got the normal one on a mouse modifier too so all good there and this works great now!.

[Berg]

As you dev are working lately on grouping parameters, I was wondering if it could be possible to think about a way to group tracks sends ? levels, mute, solo...