Old 07-08-2022, 07:58 PM   #1
Mercado_Negro
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Default v6.63+dev0708 - July 8 2022

v6.63+dev0708 - July 8 2022
  • * Includes feature branch: track media/razor edit grouping
  • * Includes feature branch: render fade-in/fade-out
  • * Includes feature branch: pan law/function improvements
  • * Includes feature branch: media explorer loudness calculation
  • * Includes feature branch: render statistics improvements
  • * Includes feature branch: improve experimental silent-track CPU reduction option to include FX tail length
  • * Includes feature branch: media item fixed lanes
  • * Includes feature branch: internal pin management overhaul for future extension
  • + Grouping: fix grouped items deselecting on second click [p=2576299]
  • + Performance meter: option to show FX CPU as worst-block (for diagnosing problematic realtime plug-ins)
  • + Track grouping: "selecting one item selects group" selects only enclosed media items on follower tracks
  • + Track grouping: add ReaScript/API support for ITEM_EDIT_LEAD and ITEM_EDIT_FOLLOW
  • + Track grouping: add actions to enable/disable individual track groups
  • + VST3: do not use VST3 bus silenceFlags if Buggy Compatibility mode is set
  • # Grouping: fix selecting all lead/follow in track grouping dialog [p=2575988]
  • # Media item grouping: when running actions (like split, etc), items on follower tracks are affected if they overlap at all with items on the leader track
  • # Track grouping: add actions to split item under mouse respecting grouping
  • # Track grouping: item edits are grouped only if the item on a leader track encloses the item on a follower track
  • # Track grouping: update track media/razor edit group display when enabling/disabling group
  • # Video: fix video playback on non-laned tracks [p=2576209]
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 07-08-2022, 08:24 PM   #2
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There's a bug with the action to split items under cursor (select left). I have enabled "offset overlapping media items vertically" so you can see it clearly:

Attached Images
File Type: gif splititemsundercursorbug.gif (40.4 KB, 900 views)
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Old 07-09-2022, 01:07 AM   #3
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# Track grouping: item edits are grouped only if the item on a leader track encloses the item on a follower track

# Media item grouping: when running actions (like split, etc), items on follower tracks are affected if they overlap at all with items on the leader track

It seems these two points are contradict each other in workflow view.
Standard grouping in Reaper works for moving, splitting, trimming, switching takes together.
I don't see reasons to exclude moving from this behavior for auto grouping.



After thinking, I tend to choose the second point. Moving should be if items overlap at all with items on the leader track. It allows to comp an arrange with tails between parts.
But for success, for prevent grabbing items by adjacent part, moving should be if item overlaps at least it's 50% with items on the leader track or if follower item overlaps whole leader item.
It will more visually clear.
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Old 07-09-2022, 02:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
After thinking, I tend to choose the second point. Moving should be if items overlap at all with items on the leader track. It allows to comp an arrange with tails between parts.
But for success, for prevent grabbing items by adjacent part, moving should be if item overlaps at least it's 50% with items on the leader track or if follower item overlaps whole leader item.
It will more visually clear.
Agreed 100%. The current rule requires additional thinking about what is going to happen (thinking bad), and a bunch of extra clicking to achieve the most natural result.

Please consider an "any overlap" rule, at least as an option.
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Old 07-09-2022, 03:15 AM   #5
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Options for overlapping would be best way forward probably?

I can see myself using it so that items have to be within but I can see that others won't. I can see it's important for moving/copying for sure!
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Old 07-09-2022, 04:38 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
After thinking, I tend to choose the second point. Moving should be if items overlap at all with items on the leader track. It allows to comp an arrange with tails between parts.
But for success, for prevent grabbing items by adjacent part, moving should be if item overlaps at least it's 50% with items on the leader track or if follower item overlaps whole leader item.
It will more visually clear.
Sorry if I misunderstood something here but what if you have crossfades (which you will have 99%) then you move one edit and everything moves with it?

If thats is the desired behavior then certainly as an option
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Old 07-09-2022, 06:10 AM   #7
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not sure whats happening here?



Splitted segment should be deleted but everything disappeared

EDIT: It happens when option "Overlap and crossfade items when splitting" is enabled in preferences

EDIT2: With option "Select item selects group" it removes everything (including the top item which is in the gif above)

EDIT3: Managed to crash reaper.... trying to reproduce

Last edited by Sexan; 07-09-2022 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 07-09-2022, 06:22 AM   #8
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I will need to send you the project (its empty project no plugins, just wavs).
Some random clicking while grouping and "select item selects group" kills reaper. (no error just silent crash).

Where can I send it?

EDIT2: its "select item select group" is killing it:

1. No groups enabled
2. Enable "select item select group"
3. Click around



You can reproduce it with empty midi items


Last edited by Sexan; 07-09-2022 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 07-09-2022, 06:43 AM   #9
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EDIT2: its "select item select group" is killing it
Fixing, thanks!
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Old 07-09-2022, 07:01 AM   #10
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Not new behavior but... if some kind of item refresh could be added after split so you have selection from cut point onwards (select item selects group option enable)


items that were in the original segment group are still selected, in order to delete or edit you have to select again to remove those items.
Again not new, item groups work this way for a long time
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Old 07-09-2022, 07:17 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
[*]+ Track grouping: add actions to enable/disable individual track groups
Thanks very much for this! Currently, the action is named "enable group x" but the action acts as a toggle. Perhaps the action should be renamed to "toggle group x"?

Also, the TCP and the grouping matrix window both update status after running the action. The grouping parameters window does not. Would be great if that updated as well.

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Old 07-09-2022, 07:26 AM   #12
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last one for this pre since its crashing a lot with "items select everything" option

Split is little weird:



Not yet sure how others feel because of different workflows but I'm not a fan of splitting outside group region (not encapsulated items). In this specific case (even it was just "lets see what will happen") with "select all" option this should not happen since that item is not selected.

To be honest I'm for simplistic all encapsulated by length type of behavior (but thats just me and my workflow) which is pretty much there

EDIT: As my post/gif bellow, its correct behavior but visuals are confusing

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Old 07-09-2022, 07:33 AM   #13
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Sorry if I misunderstood something here but what if you have crossfades (which you will have 99%) then you move one edit and everything moves with it?

If thats is the desired behavior then certainly as an option
Do you mean crossfades between autogrouped blocks or crossfades between items in one block?
I don't see any troubles with crossfades if percentage approach will implemented.
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Old 07-09-2022, 07:38 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Not yet sure how others feel because of different workflows but I'm not a fan of splitting outside group region (not encapsulated items). In this specific case (even it was just "lets see what will happen") with "select all" option this should not happen since that item is not selected.
I think if the follow tracks have items that overlap the lead track, they should be split. I think that is the most prevalent use case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
After thinking, I tend to choose the second point. Moving should be if items overlap at all with items on the leader track. It allows to comp an arrange with tails between parts.
But for success, for prevent grabbing items by adjacent part, moving should be if item overlaps at least it's 50% with items on the leader track or if follower item overlaps whole leader item.
It will more visually clear.
I very much agree with this as well. I think this should be the default behavior for both split and moving. If follow track items overlap with leader track items then split/move. If not, then don't. Simple.
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Old 07-09-2022, 07:39 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
Do you mean crossfades between autogrouped blocks or crossfades between items in one block?
I don't see any troubles with crossfades if percentage approach will implemented.
Any. Percentage approach would make things very complicated and would require to think,see,zoom,calculate are items in that range or not. Probably the best thing here would be option enable/disable.

Anyway won't be stepping on anyones toes here since not sure what workflow or context is (its hard to immagine without some proper use case)
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Old 07-09-2022, 09:05 AM   #16
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IMO the most common use case is going to be item tops and tails - items that start slightly early and prelap the main item and tails that hang on slightly after the main item.

In the GIF below, track 1 is the lead. Tracks 2-3 prelap the lead item. Track 4 has a tail past the lead item. Track 5 is the only one encapsulated. So, moving the lead track only moves Track 1 & 5, when it is obvious in this context you would want all of them to move in which case you would have to select all the items first. That defeats the purpose of having them grouped for editing.



Also, especially in the case of moving, it is still very unclear to me what exactly is being moved. In the above example, with tracks 1 and 5 being moved, my expectation is that when the lead item in track 1 is selected, the item in track 5 would also be selected so I can see exactly what will be moved.



In the first example (current implementation) I can't tell what is about to be moved. In the second example (both items selected) it is obvious what is being moved. The green group outlines in this case tell me nothing and actually obfuscate what is going on. Having the items select before the operation happens is the only clear way for the user to know imho so this is wysiwyg and the user isn't guessing.
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Old 07-09-2022, 09:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Any. Percentage approach would make things very complicated and would require to think,see,zoom,calculate are items in that range or not. Probably the best thing here would be option enable/disable.

Anyway won't be stepping on anyones toes here since not sure what workflow or context is (its hard to immagine without some proper use case)
I think, user shouldn't zoom, check or calculate too much because they have made such construction and they placed item with tail. If the user made it, it means item should be autogrouped.
In most cases tails will easy visually recognized.
And when user need to move group of elements there probably already will zoom adapted to the bunch.

Moreover to make extra zoom easier than change wrong selection every time.
If all overlaped items will grouped without percantage approach, you anyway forced to make extra zoom to check should you exclude some from selection and then switch grouping off or not.


What enable/disable option you suggest? How it solves the trouble with adjacent blocks?

Anyway there will be corner cases and this system will has borders of usability. But we need to find such system that reduce extra manipulations in most cases.
I think more about sound-design cases, because editing drums is more simple: there will no tails of follower items most of times.

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Old 07-09-2022, 09:30 AM   #18
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@Klangfarben Regarding visuals there is an option "select item selects group" which select all items in the group.


@AZpercussion option "Include items with overlapping edges in group"

What I'm worried about here is what should happen here:


What if I move any segment here what should happen?

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Old 07-09-2022, 09:57 AM   #19
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@Klangfarben Regarding visuals there is an option "select item selects group" which select all items in the group.
Thanks, I assumed it was on as I thought this was supposed to be default on new projects?

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v6.63+dev0707 - July 7 2022

+ Grouping: enable "selecting one item selects group" by default for new projects
At least in my case, it does not seem to be enabling by default. This is on the Linux x86 version.
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Old 07-09-2022, 10:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Thanks, I assumed it was on as I thought this was supposed to be default on new projects?



At least in my case, it does not seem to be enabling by default. This is on the Linux x86 version.
Hm... did not saw this before so I toggle it manually but since you mention it, it does not turn on by default here either on new projects

EDIT: On every new project it disables it instead of enabling

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Old 07-09-2022, 10:08 AM   #21
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@AZpercussion option "Include items with overlapping edges in group"

What I'm worried about here is what should happen here:
//IMG//
What if I move any segment here what should happen?
It's simple. But I rephrased your case. It's really a question:



But this case below is difficult also. And option you suggested here useless, but 50% percentage can help.




Anyway the first case with long fade is a trouble. Thanks for pointing.
In theory there can be look at lead track to find lead item candidate... It's a bit tricky in code, yeah...
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Old 07-09-2022, 10:20 AM   #22
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If there is a question how I get tails, there is an answer: while editing.
- Create a bunch of items.
- Create meta item on the lead track
- Do something else
- Return, edit items, create tails. (it's ugly to check every time lead item boundaries)
- Try to comp the arrange so on.

EDIT:
What if in most spots the meta-item role have not empty audio items, but in some spots these meta items should be trimmed? Here we get tails.

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Old 07-09-2022, 10:20 AM   #23
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Hm... did not saw this before so I toggle it manually but since you mention it, it does not turn on by default here either on new projects

EDIT: On every new project it disables it instead of enabling
Are you maybe loading a project template with new projects?

For me it gets properly enabled for new projects with a fresh portable install.
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Old 07-09-2022, 10:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Are you maybe loading a project template with new projects?

For me it gets properly enabled on new project with a fresh portable install.
Nop just new empty project


Portable install also (over previous installations which are portable also)

EDIT: Fresh install in another folder works fine, enables by default

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Old 07-09-2022, 10:22 AM   #25
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Are you maybe loading a project template with new projects?

For me it gets properly enabled for new projects with a fresh portable install.
Definitely not loading a project template. Just a new project.
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Old 07-09-2022, 11:59 AM   #26
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Definitely not loading a project template. Just a new project.
I had to enable the option, go to the Project Info and click the Save as Project Default button for the option to stick.
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Old 07-09-2022, 12:12 PM   #27
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last one for this pre since its crashing a lot with "items select everything" option

Split is little weird:



Not yet sure how others feel because of different workflows but I'm not a fan of splitting outside group region (not encapsulated items). In this specific case (even it was just "lets see what will happen") with "select all" option this should not happen since that item is not selected.

To be honest I'm for simplistic all encapsulated by length type of behavior (but thats just me and my workflow) which is pretty much there
Seems right to me. A split is a single point in time and should be applied to any item that contains this point in time and belongs to the track group.
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Old 07-09-2022, 12:25 PM   #28
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Regarding the visual feedback of selected items its not something to expect to happen:



EDIT: I guess this is good behavior, but visual feedback here is confusing

Last edited by Sexan; 07-10-2022 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 07-09-2022, 01:57 PM   #29
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I might have misunderstood but I'm just wondering if what you wanted to do here would be better done if you make all of those tracks both leader and follower so that any track moves any? I haven't tried it yet with non overlapping tracks but hopefully, it ignores the "contained within" element that you normally get with a leader situation when they all control each other?

I'll give it a go soon and see

Of course this probably does not cover everything still so might not be the best solution overall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
IMO the most common use case is going to be item tops and tails - items that start slightly early and prelap the main item and tails that hang on slightly after the main item.

In the GIF below, track 1 is the lead. Tracks 2-3 prelap the lead item. Track 4 has a tail past the lead item. Track 5 is the only one encapsulated. So, moving the lead track only moves Track 1 & 5, when it is obvious in this context you would want all of them to move in which case you would have to select all the items first. That defeats the purpose of having them grouped for editing.

Also, especially in the case of moving, it is still very unclear to me what exactly is being moved. In the above example, with tracks 1 and 5 being moved, my expectation is that when the lead item in track 1 is selected, the item in track 5 would also be selected so I can see exactly what will be moved.

In the first example (current implementation) I can't tell what is about to be moved. In the second example (both items selected) it is obvious what is being moved. The green group outlines in this case tell me nothing and actually obfuscate what is going on. Having the items select before the operation happens is the only clear way for the user to know imho so this is wysiwyg and the user isn't guessing.
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Old 07-09-2022, 02:04 PM   #30
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Hmm..

Just tried and firstly, you only have to set every track to Leader and not both Leader and Follower but..

It still does what you showed in your video which can be useful in certain situations but definitely needs to be an option or a modifier (or both?)

It was useful when I was adjusting say the edges of much shorter objects within the group (like tom tracks in drums that have been dynamically split etc) but then wouldn't act as expected when trying to move items.
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:01 AM   #31
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So, I made a mock-up how tails could be addressed.

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Old 07-10-2022, 01:05 AM   #32
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New Media Razor Edit groupings do not respect setting of action "Track: Toggle all track grouping enabled" (40771). Plus, after toggling that action, one has to click on the Arrange view to redraw.


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Old 07-10-2022, 02:01 AM   #33
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Could the group indicator on items edges be a bit thicker?
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Old 07-10-2022, 08:38 AM   #34
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First off: thrilled that, along with fixed media items lanes, track based editing groups are finally being tackled. Bravo!!!!

So here's what I am finding, and please correct me if this is user error:

There seems to be some issues when using track based edit groups and dynamic split.

If I have the 'selecting one item selects group' option activated in item grouping, the transient detection and splitting occurs at all transients of all tracks, instead of it detecting the transients of just the selected 'lead' track or tracks and then applying the splits at said 'lead' transients to all the follow tracks in the group (when the option, in dynamic split, is chosen for 'Split selected and grouped items'). This is not how it should work as I understand it. It should split all the tracks in the group at only the transients of the 'lead' tracks.

If, alternatively, I turn off the 'selecting one item selects group' option in item grouping and then attempt to detect transients on one of the 'lead' tracks and run 'Split selected and grouped items', it only splits the 'lead' track and ignores the grouping.

I'm wondering if this is just a matter not yet having worked out the way in which dynamic split will interact with track based edit groups? Or how this new method of grouping will interact with the older item based grouping method?

Thanks again for taking on both fixed media item lanes and track based edit groups! I am very confident both of these workflows will greatly improve usability for myself and many others once they are complete!

QUICK ADDITIONAL THOUGHT: when dealing with track based edit groups, it would be very nice if there were an option to have tab to transient only navigate transients in the 'lead' tracks and not the 'follow'. This would be a real time saver when slip editing drums, for example. Thanks!

Last edited by Dubnick; 07-10-2022 at 08:42 AM. Reason: Had a quick additional thought I wanted to share.
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Old 07-10-2022, 09:28 AM   #35
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(dynamic split and tab to transient)
Yes, these behaviors have not yet been updated to handle track media edit grouping (the feature is only a few days old ), but they will be eventually.
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