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Old 07-10-2022, 11:13 AM   #1
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Default v6.63+dev0710 - July 10 2022

v6.63+dev0710 - July 10 2022
  • * Includes feature branch: track media/razor edit grouping
  • * Includes feature branch: render fade-in/fade-out
  • * Includes feature branch: pan law/function improvements
  • * Includes feature branch: media explorer loudness calculation
  • * Includes feature branch: render statistics improvements
  • * Includes feature branch: improve experimental silent-track CPU reduction option to include FX tail length
  • * Includes feature branch: media item fixed lanes
  • * Includes feature branch: internal pin management overhaul for future extension
  • + Grouping: increase size of media item group border
  • + Grouping: mouse modifier to toggle item selection respects grouping when selecting or deselecting [t=259823]
  • + Mouse modifiers: add media item left-click modifier to toggle item selection ignoring grouping [t=259823]
  • + Region manager: sort take markers in project time order
  • + Track grouping: items behave as grouped if at least half of the item on the follower track overlaps the item on the leader track
  • # Actions: fix new action to split items respecting grouping, select left side [p=2576478]
  • # Grouping: refresh item grouping indicators after moving media items [p=2576301]
  • # Track grouping: media/razor edit grouping respects action to enable/disable all track grouping
  • # Track grouping: update grouping dialog when enabling/disabling groups
  • # Track grouping: use the same follower overlap criteria for selecting, editing, and actions
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:25 AM   #2
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Ok things now work more predictable, thank you (and for boarder size update, was really hard to see before).

Is this happening because of the overlap detection?



Ok I understand that the bottom item is now included because of the that but why are the items next to it moving also since the moving criteria does not match here (I'm not selecting bottom item but the top one)?
(Unless the biggest item in selection is being used for that calculation)?

BTW I'm using most simple grouping here (and will probably use that forever) all tracks are lead

EDIT: After further testing I would really prefer this to be an option because this does not allow encapsulation by length in many cases.





EDIT2: Also deleting some stuff give unexpected results

EDIT3: Delete and cut have different outcome

Last edited by Sexan; 07-10-2022 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:42 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
EDIT: After further testing I would really prefer this to be an option because this does not allow encapsulation by length in many cases.

Just out of curiosity, in what situation wouldn't you want those items to be included?

Thanks for all the work on this, it's super useful.
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:52 AM   #4
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I made a a gif with little better context, removed bleed from some instrument and need to move it. But what happens here if I need to have a little longer fade (cymbals, room or something)?
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:01 PM   #5
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You also get this kind of weird behavior (item can be in multiple groups):



I'm not saying to remove it completely just to be an option since it has usage for other workflows. But in little more advanced drum editing where there will be a lot of splits, different fades lengths, holes from manual bleed removing, moving things around for timing fixes I think this will be a little distracting

Last edited by Sexan; 07-10-2022 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
You also get this kind of weird behavior (item can be in multiple groups):
Yeah I agree that's unwanted. Maybe it should be 50% from the end (to handle tails), but not from the beginning. Then again, that's not simple anymore.
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:37 PM   #7
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Agree. That's a corner case that would need a solution if we keep the 50/50 option. Not sure what the best solution is though. Maybe "leaning" it to one direction or the other as suggested would be a good starting place.


Please also consider devs to allow edges of shorter items to be "picked up" when a longer item's edge goes past it. That way we can shorten all items at once even if they don't have the same end position and not have to worry about first lining them up which is difficult without snapping on
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:54 PM   #8
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I know there's division on this but would love an option for hidden tracks to still be included in the group if possible.

I often hide tracks away to make a cleaner view of the project but would still like to edit them even when inivisible.

even if foldered and collapsed it still gets too busy.. Especially with ambisonic 7th order with 64 tracks but even just 16 tracks starts to fill up the arrange view with a few of them.

Maybe as a tick box in the grouping options? "include hidden tracks"
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:00 PM   #9
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I think hidden grouped tracks are still affected by edits, or at least that is the intention.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:02 PM   #10
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Yeah I can confirm that hidden grouped tracks are not affected by editing in this pre (was working on previous one since I've tested that for same reason he is mentioning)
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
why are the items next to it moving also since the moving criteria does not match here (I'm not selecting bottom item but the top one)?
(Unless the biggest item in selection is being used for that calculation)?

BTW I'm using most simple grouping here (and will probably use that forever) all tracks are lead
This is happening because "selecting item selects group" is enabled, and all tracks are lead. The click on the shorter item on track 1 causes the longer item on track 6 to be selected, and because the longer item on track 6 is selected when the edit starts, the last item on track 1 is grouped with it.

[edit to add] I think you would see the same behavior if using only old-style item grouping, with "selecting item selects" group enabled, if items 1&2 are grouped together, and items 2&3 are grouped together. Selecting item 1 would also select item 2 but not item 3, but then both items 1 and 2 would be selected, so moving them would also move item 3.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Yeah I can confirm that hidden grouped tracks are not affected by editing in this pre (was working on previous one since I've tested that for same reason he is mentioning)
Are you sure? Can you give an example project maybe?
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:11 PM   #13
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But it was working (at least as I've expected) pre before?



I've tested it once I saw his post, double checked. Yeah sure I can send you, which mail?

EDIT: To reproduce
1. "item select group" enable
2. deselect everything
3. Hide tracks
4. Split items on non hiden
5. Unhide
6. No edits on previously hidden ones



Edit: Attached example project, 5 tracks with empty midi, group all to lead. Reproduced with steps above
Attached Files
File Type: rpp 4_schwa.rpp (8.3 KB, 94 views)

Last edited by Sexan; 07-10-2022 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
But it was working (at least as I've expected) pre before?
Assuming that screencap is with the previous +dev build, the grouping criteria changed. Previously items were selected/edited only if the leader enclosed the follower, but actions would act on any overlapping item. The bottom grouped item would be affected by splits etc, but not moved with the top items.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:28 PM   #15
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Yeah I understand that its different now, but I assume if there is no 50-50% here then it won't be selected it would be exclusively enclosed items (which is what I'm getting at) ? (which is also how one unnamed app is behaving)

Last edited by Sexan; 07-10-2022 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
EDIT: To reproduce
1. "item select group" enable
2. deselect everything
3. Hide tracks
4. Split items on non hiden
5. Unhide
6. No edits on previously hidden ones
That recipe does split the hidden items here, using the action "split items at edit or play cursor" (S shortcut by default). What action or mouse modifier are you using to do the split, exactly?
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:32 PM   #17
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Splitting with this shortcut

EDIT: Make sure nothing is selected EVEN tracks. If one track is selected before doing this then it will split correctly, but if nothing is selected (no items and no tracks) before starting to split, hiddens are excluded

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Old 07-10-2022, 01:36 PM   #18
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We talked about use case with long fades in previous pre-.
Sexan pointed that 50% is not the best solution in some cases.
And I found, as I guess, this more clever way. Maybe it was too late.

It's very similar to that how human see grouped elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
So, I made a mock-up how tails could be addressed.

So any items overlapped with leader will grouped, but if there is leader candidate Reaper should look at biggest overlapped part to define the real leader for this follower.

Last edited by AZpercussion; 07-10-2022 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
We talked about use case with long fades in previous pre-.
Sexan pointed that 50% is not the best solution in some cases.
And I found, as I guess, this more clever way. Maybe it was too late.

It's very similar to that how human see grouped elements.
The problem I see with this proposal is that when you move the leader over 2 beats (pulling the follower with it), what happens then? Does the follower switch leaders? Actually I think it's then 50/50, so does it have two leaders?

A rule which prioritizes tails over heads would help here. But maybe it's less an argument for that solution, and more an argument for a dead-simple default rule which is never ambiguous, and some reasonable options for common use cases which might lead to stranger corner case behavior.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
[img]Make sure nothing is selected EVEN tracks.
Ah, ok, thanks, fixing!
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Are you sure? Can you give an example project maybe?
It's good to know it's meant to work thanks!

Just tried again to make sure and it seems that if you make 2 tracks with a single midi item on both (same length), hide one track..

Moving the visible item works but copying doesn't.
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Old 07-10-2022, 02:04 PM   #22
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Confirming this also, this does not matter is everything deselected. Copy does not work
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Old 07-10-2022, 02:10 PM   #23
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also. doesn't happen everytime but I've had it get "stuck" when trying to drag copy a grouped item and not noticed that before.

It's like it has to become selected itself and then make everything else selected and this can cause it to seem "sticky" when trying to drag it.

Not the end of the world stuff but just a thing I noticed
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Old 07-10-2022, 02:27 PM   #24
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Should multiple selections work?
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Old 07-10-2022, 02:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
The problem I see with this proposal is that when you move the leader over 2 beats (pulling the follower with it), what happens then? Does the follower switch leaders? Actually I think it's then 50/50, so does it have two leaders?

A rule which prioritizes tails over heads would help here. But maybe it's less an argument for that solution, and more an argument for a dead-simple default rule which is never ambiguous, and some reasonable options for common use cases which might lead to stranger corner case behavior.
Yes, the follower will switch leaders in such case. And it can be useful!
Anyway it's auto grouping and it can't behave exact way as static regular one.

It's rather obvious and logically consistent that tail stay a tail while it less than body. Else it becomes a body. So we should be careful with long tails or use regular grouping in addition to auto one.

The case with exact 50/50 is not so often, more over if grid is off. So probably there is no need for it's own behaviour (as two leaders at the same time) I guess.

I'm afraid that dead-simplified default rule will produce more corner cases in fact...

The switching leaders is more rare case than losing followers (or including excess followers) if we will have simple rule. So it's the less evil or maybe it's advantage
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Old 07-10-2022, 03:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Should multiple selections work?
Just gave this a go and I'm leaning towards all items needing to be selected to have contents moved around. Mainly because if you have shorter items you might not want that content moved around.

Basically, it would be nice to have options for both without having to turn off grouping.

Also. I found it currently to be inconsistent if you don't have all items the same size with some item contents not moving at all when expected.
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Old 07-10-2022, 03:36 PM   #27
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Sorry but I can't find that option "select one group item selects group" in the menus. I can see the action.
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Old 07-10-2022, 03:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
Just gave this a go and I'm leaning towards all items needing to be selected to have contents moved around. Mainly because if you have shorter items you might not want that content moved around.

Basically, it would be nice to have options for both without having to turn off grouping.

Also. I found it currently to be inconsistent if you don't have all items the same size with some item contents not moving at all when expected.
I think you are not getting me, selecting items does not select group thats what ai'm pointing at. Selecting items here in that gif should select every item group (all items should be selected)

Mercado right click on grouping icon in toolbar
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Old 07-10-2022, 03:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
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I think you are not getting me, selecting items does not select group thats what ai'm pointing at. Selecting items here in that gif should select every item group (all items should be selected)

Mercado right click on grouping icon in toolbar
Ah, getting late here sorry I saw the content moving and thought you meant that.

It should I think if the right click option for selecting one in group selects all is on yes
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Old 07-10-2022, 05:12 PM   #30
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Great groups of fire!

On top of the item selection mouse mod, I'm finding the mouse mod 'move item ignoring selection/grouping' really helpful. Ctrl+Alt+Left drag (my pref) an item to discretely adjust its position, tempo, lane, track, within an item group or track group without needing to access group parameters OR change the selection. Brilliant.
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Old 07-11-2022, 01:36 AM   #31
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Item that enters into existing group doesn't update to "green" if item selection doesn't change.
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Old 07-11-2022, 01:54 AM   #32
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Where can I download the latest build +dev, now there is rc
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Old 07-11-2022, 02:20 AM   #33
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Where can I download the latest build +dev, now there is rc
By the same link in the folder "old/".
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Old 07-11-2022, 04:00 AM   #34
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Would it be possible to retrieve group name via API (GetGroupMembership to return name also)?
Use case -> simplified group manager:
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Old 07-11-2022, 04:26 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Would it be possible to retrieve group name via API (GetGroupMembership to return name also)?
Use GetSetProjectInfo_String with TRACK_GROUP_NAME
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Old 07-11-2022, 04:29 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Use GetSetProjectInfo_String with TRACK_GROUP_NAME
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Old 07-11-2022, 08:25 AM   #37
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I just want to say I'm very much opposed to this "50 percent rule" in this pre. I realize this is an effort to cover multiple corner cases, but I don't think it is an effective solution and while "consistent" it is making me think in a very non-standard way about what is and isn't included in the group. I think the default should be "encapsulated + overlap (any)" and then work on corner cases from there - alternate modes/modifiers, etc. Arbitrarily setting 50 percent overlap to cover corner cases I don't think is the best way to solve this.

Also, I do agree with others here that consistency is really important. So, if items are splitting in the group, they should also be selecting and moving. Doing it any other way is just confusing. So Sexan's example in Post #2 is confusing not because they all move. I think they should all move. But it is confusing because they don't all select and "unselected" items are moving.
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Old 07-11-2022, 09:13 AM   #38
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I will just throw this in for discussion purposes.

(this is my edit group script which mimics the one that shall not be named).


To ME this is behavior I expect

The "lead" is calculated from selected item, so basically what item is selected that item is lead. So the whole thing works on enclosed by item that is selected.
This probably makes sense if you set all tracks to lead.

What will probably get discussed is item at the end:


In the end what will always happen here is possibility for item to be in 2 separate groups. So you move group on the left and and that item moves, then you need to tweak group and the right and now that item moves again.
But my biggest problem here is that if we have crossfades (which is overlap) then everything will move together you cannot move ANY segment individually any more (if default is encapsulated + overlap (any)). Even worse if you want to delete any segment now you delete everything.


I think the best approach here is to have 2 different modes in options "enclosed only", "enclosed + overlap" and some others if needed.

Again this post is only for discussion here!

Last edited by Sexan; 07-11-2022 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:03 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
I will just throw this in for discussion purposes.

What will probably get discussed is item at the end:
So here's a counter-question about that item -- why is that track in the track edit group to begin with?

Finding a rule to solve every potential editing situation with outliers is probably practically impossible, so the ability to quickly suspend and resume groups as an action is fantastic. But I recognize that there are already a few workflows presented here which have competing requirements.

I hope the simplest and most natural (dumbest) behavior wins, with more complex and "intelligent" options available to catch the corner cases.
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:30 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
So here's a counter-question about that item -- why is that track in the track edit group to begin with?
The thing is in my workflow (drum editing) this will never happen since everything is encapsulated and everything is same length (multi-mic recording). Its just there for "semi" example lets say to show some other use cases that were been showed here.

This is a little more better example for my workflow (that "weird" item is also there).

I've modified my script to include overlap edges:


While the "weird" item is now selected so we can assume that user case is "fixed" the rest of the behavior is not desired (at least to me). Now instead of single segment groups we now get MULTIPLE single groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
I hope the simplest and most natural (dumbest) behavior wins, with more complex and "intelligent" options available to catch the corner cases.
I agree with this 100%

I would also like to include this excellent writeup which was one time posted while we had some top features pool thingy
https://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=843

Was helpful when I was doing the script

Last edited by Sexan; 07-11-2022 at 10:46 AM.
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