v6.73+dev0120 - January 20 2023

[ferropop]

I'm not sure I follow (not being argumentative, I just actually don't understand haha!)

Like, in item-based comping in Reaper the tuning edits were persistent. You could tune Take 1, record a bunch more overtop it, and if you switched back to Take 1 as active it would remember your tuning edits.

It seems here that simply auditioning other sections of a "tuned" area result in lost edits, which was not the case in item-based comping.

[schwa]

Comping in lanes is not auditioning, it's assembling. When you move a comp area or change the source lane for a comp, the comping lane is updated with a copy of the source material. It's not an audition or ghost copy or some kind of virtual representation, it's an actual copy of the source material.

So for any edit, whether it's melodyne or item volume or take envelopes or crossfades or anything, you have to intentionally choose to edit either the source material, or the comped copies. If you edit the source material and update the comp, your edits will be copied to the comping lane. If you edit the comping lane, your edits will not affect the source material.

This is by design. If there are edits you want to make to the source material that you want to affect all comped output that uses that source material, then edit the source lanes. If there are edits you want to make the the comped result that will not affect the source material, and will not affect other comped variations using the same source material, then edit the comping lane.

As a practical matter, if you are comping and you hear something you want to pitch correct, solo that source lane and pitch correct it, then update the comp to copy your edits to the comping lane.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I'm not sure I follow (not being argumentative, I just actually don't understand haha!)

Like, in item-based comping in Reaper the tuning edits were persistent. You could tune Take 1, record a bunch more overtop it, and if you switched back to Take 1 as active it would remember your tuning edits.

It seems here that simply auditioning other sections of a "tuned" area result in lost edits, which was not the case in item-based comping.

To be clear, in lane-based comping, you can tune lane 6, then separately tune lane 7, and those tuning edits should then affect any comps you make that use lane 6 or lane 7.

What you don't want to do is make a comp that uses lane 6, pitch correct the comp rather than pitch correcting lane 6, then switch the comp to use lane 7 instead.

Repeating this so it doesn't get lost:

Originally Posted by schwa

Melodyne edits are applied to the soloed lane

[ferropop]

Understood, I guess I'm making the point that this was incredibly fluid :

[ferropop]

Because what you're proposing now means we have to seek out the source, solo that lane, make the edits, re-commit, re-fix the crossfades, when none of that was necessary before. You literally just clicked the take.

With love, just...putting this out there.

[schwa]

The old system isn't going away

[ferropop]

Here it is, working as expected in Cubase.

https://youtu.be/XV4it5iQbk4?t=51

I'm downloading Logic as we speak, I suspect it also works the expected way.

[ovnis]

Originally Posted by schwa

Melodyne edits are applied to the soloed lane

It seems great. I don't understand the issue!

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by ovnis

It seems great. I don't understand the issue!

Ovnis have you tried it?

[mattn]

I have been testing the new comp system a little, and I must say it feels great. As usually with reaper: it is just so well thought out and lovingly crafted. Thank you!

One or two questions though:
Is there a way to "collapse" all lanes and show only the soloed lane, or the current "comp into" lane?
Otherwise the arranger will be very full with lanes, especially with grouped multitrack recordings.

If I turn off track - fixed item lanes, I see all lanes overlapping. That does not seem very uselful, or am I missing something?

Also, I don't see a way to go on editing the items after comping - what is the intended way of working here?

Thanks for clarifying!

[ferropop]

Just want the best version of this and cannot stress how unbelievable it has been to see comping come together in Reaper so quickly! Your efforts are appreciated immensely, so this is all said with sensitivity.

Not gonna lie, Melodyne working in this way basically makes the new comping system unusable. I can't be the only one, and suspect in a month or two this is going to rear its ugly head as mass adoption begins.



Example : this is a typical vocal comp :



The next step would be to Melodyne the comp. Absolutely standard, typical workflow.

In every DAW (including Reaper with the old system) you just go ahead and tune the track. Great! Want to hear alternate takes? Just activate them, move on. Everything is saved.


Currently in Reaper : if I were to do literally anything to this comp (cycle takes, etc) we lose all the tuning information! Even returning to the original take, the tuning is lost. Someone could literally left-click a take (thereby committing it), and byebye forever to those edits.


The proposed fix here is to do the tuning on the source by soloing the source.

This would involve individually soloing 12 different lanes, having no context because you're soloing the lane not the comp, having to fix crossfades 12 times, etc etc etc.
Also, you don't have to do this in any other DAW.


This is a single vocal track! There are stacks, harmonies, adlibs.

[ferropop]

I'm only squeaky wheeling here because I tried so so so hard in every dev release to be like "hi! please please please ensure this plays nice with Melodyne", to the point of probably annoying everyone. And here we are

And worse, it works as expected in Cubase and Logic (the only 2 I've tried so far), so it's objectively weird. When you switch takes in Cubase/Logic it just remembers your edits, as it did with Reaper item-based comping. No having to solo anything, no fear of losing a ton of work with a single left-click, it just works.

[benmiller]

Originally Posted by mattn

Is there a way to "collapse" all lanes and show only the soloed lane, or the current "comp into" lane?

This feature is not there (yet?), but we are all expecting to see it arrive at some point

Originally Posted by mattn

Also, I don't see a way to go on editing the items after comping - what is the intended way of working here?

Thanks for clarifying!

double click the comp lane header button to turn off comping. Then you can just do regular edits in that lane. But when moving/triming/fading items you will then loose the reference to the source lane if you go back to comping mode.

[mschnell]

I suppose ARA can't work on the target lane, as ARA works directly on the Media file content and AFAIU, the target lane does not feature a file. But OTOH, Reaper might enhance the working of ARA by having it access the comped information, if desired.

-Michael

[schwa]

Originally Posted by ferropop

basically makes the new comping system unusable

I don't know, man, I'd say don't worry so much. We can usually figure out a way to get things where they need to be eventually. It's not like you're standing at a fork in the road watching a car going the wrong direction.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

I don't know, man, I'd say don't worry so much. We can usually figure out a way to get things where they need to be eventually. It's not like you're standing at a fork in the road watching a car going the wrong direction.

I hope there was value in all the other sentences I'm so carefully trying to put together to help guide this, as one of many people "in the trenches" using this stuff for 12 hours a day.

[ferropop]

And I do trust in the process, it's just hard watching a Tesla be put together and be told to "Flinstones foot-pedal on the freeway when there's more than one car on the road", because the navigation system shuts off when you change lanes.

[ferropop]

Anyways, hopefully others can chime in if they feel the same. Just want the best for all this! Just want to feel that this point is being heard.

[benmiller]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I'm only squeaky wheeling here because I tried so so so hard in every dev release to be like "hi! please please please ensure this plays nice with Melodyne", to the point of probably annoying everyone. And here we are

And worse, it works as expected in Cubase and Logic (the only 2 I've tried so far), so it's objectively weird. When you switch takes in Cubase/Logic it just remembers your edits, as it did with Reaper item-based comping. No having to solo anything, no fear of losing a ton of work with a single left-click, it just works.

I guess this is one of the limitations of the "real copy of items" design. You would have similar issues in protools for example, where comping there is also just copy pasting items.

One possible workflow is to tune your comp lane, and if you want to recomp, then do a copy of your tuned comp lane, tunning will stick there and you can use it as a source lane for your new comp if you want to revert to your first tunned version. I'm not saying this is ideal, nor disregarding the importance of the issue, just a suggestion.

in cubase and logic the comp if just a virtual reference to the source material, that's why tuning on the comp also applies to the source material.

the current reaper comping system is trying to put together the best of 2 worlds. hard copies vs virtual references. which will have it's own limitations... Logic's solution to this was to more or less implement both version (swipe comping/folder takes and track alternatives).

My hope is that this fixed lane comping is not going to get overly complicated with a million options and will allow for a good "versioning" of tracks (logic alternatives/PT playlists). And that a seperate feature will implement the "virtual references" a la Cubase/logic concept, which might involve some kind of new container comp item, and would allow what you are asking for.

Curious to see what will come out of all of this

[benmiller]

Originally Posted by schwa

I don't know, man, I'd say don't worry so much. We can usually figure out a way to get things where they need to be eventually. It's not like you're standing at a fork in the road watching a car going the wrong direction.

so much suspens about what we'll get in the end

[bolgwrad]

Originally Posted by schwa

I don't know, man, I'd say don't worry so much. We can usually figure out a way to get things where they need to be eventually. It's not like you're standing at a fork in the road watching a car going the wrong direction.

That's how I feel when I use Melodyne

[pentecost]

since melodyne apparently works to satisfaction with the old takes system (going off the comment pool, not a melodyne power user here) would it not be helpful to hybridize?
the ability to append fixed lane content to the target comp lane as consolidated 2nd, 3rd... nth takes seems to me like it would allow the "adjust directly in the comp lane" preference, abides by familiar rules, and omits all the microsplitting drawbacks of the original takes system.

[Daodan]

Originally Posted by ferropop

about Melodyne

Well explained. +1 to all.

[sockmonkey72]

Originally Posted by sockmonkey72

Last +dev writes an extra 'm' to the reaper-mouse.ini file when changing things in the Mouse Modifiers prefs pane, a la

[MM_CTX_ITEM]
mm_0=62 m
mm_1=63 m

Is this intentional, and if so, does it have a meaning?

I am pretty sure that this got buried under 100 tons of Melodyne. Apologies for the repost.

[Pink Wool]

Just had a test with the pre. Things are looking mighty fine! Great job Justin and Schwa! One thing I noticed (again most likely I missed something); when comping to a lane is activated and you record to a new lane, it autocomps the latest recording over everything (in the comp lane). I'm assuming this can be turned off in some settings?

[Triode]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Anyways, hopefully others can chime in if they feel the same. Just want the best for all this! Just want to feel that this point is being heard.

Isn’t there an action to copy comp edits back to the source?

[schwa]

Originally Posted by sockmonkey72

I am pretty sure that this got buried under 100 tons of Melodyne. Apologies for the repost.

That's intentional, fixing a (somewhat rare) bug where sections with a lot of built-in mouse modifiers defined could get ID numbers that are high enough that they would collide with low-numbered regular action IDs.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by Pink Wool

Just had a test with the pre. Things are looking mighty fine! Great job Justin and Schwa! One thing I noticed (again most likely I missed something); when comping to a lane is activated and you record to a new lane, it autocomps the latest recording over everything (in the comp lane). I'm assuming this can be turned off in some settings?

Options menu, new recording that overlaps existing media items, after recording into a fixed lane, promote the new recording.

[sockmonkey72]

Originally Posted by schwa

That's intentional, fixing a (somewhat rare) bug where sections with a lot of built-in mouse modifiers defined could get ID numbers that are high enough that they would collide with low-numbered regular action IDs.

Thanks. What else can that 'm' be, and/or how should I interpret the value based on its presence or absence?

Background is that I am parsing that file to generate MM presets. Until now, I was able to just get the context, the index and the command id and feel confident that I had all the data required to save/restore the state, now I'm unsure.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

EDIT: I see that you updated the docs:

Note: the action string may have a space and 'c' or 'm' appended to it to specify command ID vs mouse modifier ID.

Got it, thanks!

[ovnis]

I realized that I completely failed in my demonstration on this problem of notes that we do not want to see in the midi editor (notes that belong to the midi items that are above or below the selected item inside a track with fixed lanes).

In fact, we must replace the term "One MIDI editor per track" by "Open all midi on the same track".

So, when I have chosen this option "Open all midi on the same track", I only one to see notes whcih are inside the clicked item.

If I had wanted to see the notes that are in the top or bottom items, I would have chosen "Open all midi in the project"

Adding this option would be great : "Open all midi on the same track and on the same lane"

I don't want to use One MIDI editor per media item because it lags with heavy project. So My option is "One MIDI editor per project". And it's more clean (only one tab).

[sockmonkey72]

Originally Posted by schwa

That's intentional, fixing a (somewhat rare) bug where sections with a lot of built-in mouse modifiers defined could get ID numbers that are high enough that they would collide with low-numbered regular action IDs.

Looks like something broke when setting custom actions:

reaper.SetMouseModifier('MM_CTX_ITEM_DBLCLK', 3, '_SWS_LOOPITEMSECTION')

used to work correctly, now it doesn't. In the latest +dev, I need to call NamedCommandLookup() to get a numerical command ID.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by schwa

That's intentional, fixing a (somewhat rare) bug where sections with a lot of built-in mouse modifiers defined could get ID numbers that are high enough that they would collide with low-numbered regular action IDs.

Do we have to append the m when setting mouse modifiers via API now, or is that handled by Reaper?

(asking because of my SWS Eraser tool.)

[Justin]

Originally Posted by sockmonkey72

Looks like something broke when setting custom actions:

reaper.SetMouseModifier('MM_CTX_ITEM_DBLCLK', 3, '_SWS_LOOPITEMSECTION')

used to work correctly, now it doesn't. In the latest +dev, I need to call NamedCommandLookup() to get a numerical command ID.

thx, fixing

[Justin]

Originally Posted by nofish

Do we have to append the m when setting mouse modifiers via API now, or is that handled by Reaper?

(asking because of my SWS Eraser tool.)

You only have to append an "m" if the mouse modifier ID is >= 1000 (which doesn't currently exist). But you can append an "m" as good practice if you like

(and for named commands, e.g. _SWS_COMMAND_ID* etc you shouldn't append anything)

[sockmonkey72]

Originally Posted by Justin

thx, fixing

While you're in there, any chance of an optional AddRemoveReaScript()-like commit flag to prevent performance-sucking file access on every call to SetMouseModifier()?

xoxoxo

[maxdembo]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Just want the best version of this and cannot stress how unbelievable it has been to see comping come together in Reaper so quickly! Your efforts are appreciated immensely, so this is all said with sensitivity.

Not gonna lie, Melodyne working in this way basically makes the new comping system unusable. I can't be the only one, and suspect in a month or two this is going to rear its ugly head as mass adoption begins.



Example : this is a typical vocal comp :



The next step would be to Melodyne the comp. Absolutely standard, typical workflow.

In every DAW (including Reaper with the old system) you just go ahead and tune the track. Great! Want to hear alternate takes? Just activate them, move on. Everything is saved.


Currently in Reaper : if I were to do literally anything to this comp (cycle takes, etc) we lose all the tuning information! Even returning to the original take, the tuning is lost. Someone could literally left-click a take (thereby committing it), and byebye forever to those edits.


The proposed fix here is to do the tuning on the source by soloing the source.

This would involve individually soloing 12 different lanes, having no context because you're soloing the lane not the comp, having to fix crossfades 12 times, etc etc etc.
Also, you don't have to do this in any other DAW.


This is a single vocal track! There are stacks, harmonies, adlibs.

I'm with ya!

[nofish]

Originally Posted by Justin

You only have to append an "m" if the mouse modifier ID is >= 1000 (which doesn't currently exist). But you can append an "m" as good practice if you like

(and for named commands, e.g. _SWS_COMMAND_ID* etc you shouldn't append anything)

Got it, thanks.

[DerTonmeister]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Anyways, hopefully others can chime in if they feel the same. Just want the best for all this! Just want to feel that this point is being heard.

I definitly do (as I often do single-miced pop-choir recordings with 20-40 tracks that need to be melodyned)!

[bwsd]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Anyways, hopefully others can chime in if they feel the same. Just want the best for all this! Just want to feel that this point is being heard.

+1

[ferropop]

Just as a datapoint (as sad as it might be), in modern pop music (or any commercial genre) every single note gets touched by Melodyne. It's not a one-off thing you engage when needed - it's as central to the sound as a compressor. From James Hetfield to Adele.

Please consider this going forwards ❤️