v6.75+dev0219 - February 19 2023

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

To get the same result you have with takes, you'd want to slip-edit the source media, not the comp lane.

[edit] like that ^^

schwa if you slip edit the item in the Comp Lane, what is the advantage of the comp area disappearing? Like what benefit is that adding?

I'd argue it's only a disadvantage. If the comp area just stayed put, it'd be much more useful because you never have to redraw the area. I'm honestly baffled at why, if you have drawn boundaries, would you want to lose those boundaries? What is gained?

If it stayed put, you retain the ability to audition the other lanes instantly - you keep the crossfades - you keep the boundaries - it's only better.


...like, you drew an area for a reason. It represents a phrase, or a word. Why throw that away?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Because if you edit the item in comp lane then it becomes different than the item in comp area that it was previously selected in lanes, so it should unsync. If they were synced, each edit in comp lane would apply to the item in comp area in lanes too, in order to preserve edits in comp lane, but there was some cycles with this behavior that was removed.

But I think the thing crossfade is still in development and probably there will be improvements.



I know read the above comments

If it's desynched anyways then you might as well keep the benefits of the boundary/crossfades no? Why throw it all out? It can remain desynched but still keep the comp area boundaries/crossfades so you can easily keep auditioning.

The boundaries are useful! Just because you slip edited doesn't mean suddenly that wasn't a meaningful swipe, you're simply adjusting the specific timing of that slice. But you drew that comp area for a reason -- because it represented something useful, like a word or phrase.

[schwa]

Currently a comp area represents a relationship between a particular source lane and the comp lane. If you edit the comp lane directly, something has to happen.

In the current implementation, when you edit the comp lane, the comp area usually goes out of sync, showing that, for example, the comp lane used to be a copy of lane 3, but it's not any more because it was edited.

It seems like you are asking for the comp lane to remain somehow, like maybe it could be displayed only on the comp lane, indicating that there used to be a relationship with a particular source lane, but there isn't any more. But then what happens as soon as you switch to a different source lane for that comp area? The comp lane that you slip-edited gets overwritten and it's gone.

AFAICT the only way for that edit to make sense is if you either do it on the comp lane and the comp area goes out of sync so your edit can't immediately be overwritten, or to do the edit directly in the source lane instead.

Note that you can currently force an unsynced comp lane to overwrite your comp lane edits by ctrl+alt+clicking on the unsynced comp area.

[AZpercussion]

Originally Posted by ferropop

If it's desynched anyways then you might as well keep the benefits of the boundary/crossfades no? Why throw it all out? It can remain desynched but still keep the comp area boundaries/crossfades so you can easily keep auditioning.

As I said above:
I think we should have ability to switch comp area through lanes even this area is unsynced, so it will not felt broken.
It will solve the problem, isn't it?

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by ferropop

If it's desynched anyways then you might as well keep the benefits of the boundary/crossfades no? Why throw it all out? It can remain desynched but still keep the comp area boundaries/crossfades so you can easily keep auditioning.

That's actually a cool idea

The area could unsync except its boundaries/sides to retain crossfades with rest areas. (something like mixing the crossfades of an item with a comp area, hmm)

[schwa]

Originally Posted by ferropop

If it stayed put, you retain the ability to audition the other lanes instantly - you keep the crossfades - you keep the boundaries - it's only better

If you promote another lane, your comp lane edits would get overwritten, because they don't exist anywhere other than the comp lane.

The whole concept here is that the comp lane is a real, editable copy of your untouched source lanes. If you have edits that make sense in the source lanes, like timing adjustments, then do those edits in the source lanes. If you have edits that only make sense in the comp lane, because you don't want to touch the source lanes, then those items in the comp lane no longer represent copies of any source media.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

Currently a comp area represents a relationship between a particular source lane and the comp lane. If you edit the comp lane directly, something has to happen.

Currently the comp area usually goes out of sync, showing that, for example, the comp lane used to be a copy of lane 3, but it's not any more because it was edited.

It seems like you are asking for the comp lane to remain somehow, like maybe it could be displayed only on the comp lane, indicating that there used to be a relationship with a particular source lane, but there isn't any more. But then what happens as soon as you switch to a different source lane for that comp area? The comp lane that you slip-edited gets overwritten and it's gone.

AFAICT the only way for that edit to make sense is if you either do it on the comp lane and the comp area goes out of sync so your edit can't immediately be overwritten, or to do the edit directly in the source lane instead.

Could it not go out of sync, show the original sync media, and also remain a comp area though? Having to redraw the unsynched area causes so much extra work, when it could just stay-put.

[AZpercussion]

Originally Posted by schwa

But then what happens as soon as you switch to a different source lane for that comp area? The comp lane that you slip-edited gets overwritten and it's gone.

Yes, it can be even gone as a simple solution.
If user want to save edits he can just copy them to an empty lane.

As an advansed solution these edits could be saved related to that unsynced area and restored when that area will chosen.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Could it not go out of sync, show the original sync media, and also remain a comp area though? Having to redraw the unsynched area causes so much extra work, when it could just stay-put.

Instead of redrawing it, ctrl+alt+click it and it will re-sync.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

If you promote another lane, your comp lane edits would get overwritten, because they don't exist anywhere other than the comp lane.

The whole concept here is that the comp lane is a real, editable copy of your untouched source lanes. If you have edits that make sense in the source lanes, like timing adjustments, then do those edits in the source lanes. If you have edits that only make sense in the comp lane, because you don't want to touch the source lanes, then those items in the comp lane no longer represent copies of any source media.

The edits only make sense in the context of a comp though, which is why I struggle to understand why anyone is doing edits in the source lanes at all.

If you edit in the source lane, then go back and decide to use more of that phrase from the source - there's a weird edit that now makes no sense in the context of the source lane.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by schwa

Instead of redrawing it, ctrl+alt+click it and it will re-sync.

I thin re-sync should be added in double click context too

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by ferropop

The edits only make sense in the context of a comp though, which is why I struggle to understand why anyone is doing edits in the source lanes at all.

Why? because nothing breaks and everything stay always in sync, even during playback with any edit or change. If you want you can always make copies of your edits and add to lane add area or a new lane, nothing gets removed and is super flexible for the arrangement. And remember that you can comp different elements too (audio or midi) and then rearrange them, instead of just similar sources.

[ferropop]

Anyways, if the solution here is to Ctrl-Alt-click resync I can live with that. It just breaks the flow of viewing the comp lane as being made up of sequential zones, when you have to go hunt for the unsynched item to restore the boundaries.

[schwa]

I feel like this whole back and forth just boils down to how easy it should be to overwrite edits on the comp lane? Currently you have to ctrl+alt+click. We've already added a double-click modifier for the next build. Doesn't that address the issue?

[AZpercussion]

Originally Posted by schwa

I feel like this whole back and forth just boils down to how easy it should be to overwrite edits on the comp lane? Currently you have to ctrl+alt+click. We've already added a double-click modifier for the next build. Doesn't that address the issue?

For now we need to drag mouse to that unsynced rectangle through all lanes. It's not very convenient.
Also what about immediately copy edited comp area to a free space in lanes and sync the comp lane to it?
As a one action.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

I feel like this whole back and forth just boils down to how easy it should be to overwrite edits on the comp lane? Currently you have to ctrl+alt+click. We've already added a double-click modifier for the next build. Doesn't that address the issue?

It's also stuff like this :



Now there are 3 behaviours for crossfades in the comp lane because there's a Comp-Area-touching-unsynched-area behaviour, a Unsynched Area behaviour, and a Comp-Area-touching-Comp-Area behaviour, all just for crossfades.

If the comp area just stayed put, it's one consistent behaviour. If something is in the Comp Lane, it should behave like a comp.

I guess I just see the selection of crossfades/boundaries as a track-level thing...given that in the end you are producing a single audible cohesive track.

(fully aware you are pulling your hair out)

[Vagelis]

^^ Yeah it would be nice to move together the edge of a comp area with the edge of the item next to it while is unsynced and also blend their crossfades.

[Triode]

Originally Posted by schwa

But in your screencap showing how it works with takes, you are editing the source items.

I think that's only because with the take system that's the only way to do it.
I'm hoping that when working with lanes we'll get the choice to edit the comp lane and leave the source lanes unaffected.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by schwa

But in your screencap showing how it works with takes, you are editing the source items.

The only thing i was trying to illustrate when using Takes was the persistence of the crossfades and edges. Everything else is better in the current Lanes stuff. It was my only way to demonstrate how fast it was in comparison.

[Edgemeal]

Take: Explode takes on selected tracks to fixed lanes and create comp areas from active takes

EDIT Never mind

[Thonex]

Hello, awesome devs!!

I've been testing out the new Comp feature from a multi-mic perspective and I have some observations.

First, I'd like to thank you for all the hard work you have put into this so far. I think it's very promising. It took me a little while to get up to speed, but after turning ON Razor All Tracks, keeping the multiple tracks synchronized worked nicely. Also, SWS/BR: Toggle preview take under mouse (start from mouse position) is a must for auditioning takes (unless I'm missing something).

So as to better itemize my issues/bugs, I'll create a separate post for each of my findings.

But great job so far!!

Cheers,

Andrew K

[Thonex]

[EDIT] OK... after further testing, I think I can live with assigning a left-click to move the cursor to the mouse position. that's a useful and innocuous solution to the "dangerous assign emptiness to a comp by clicking in an empty space" problem. I wouldn't have thought of that without your input.

Thanks, Edgemeal!!!

----------------------------------------------

Dangerous:

I find it pretty dangerous to be able to inadvertently click on any lane's empty space and have it alter the comp (as seen below). I think it would be prudent to limit the new Comp Pen Tool to only being able to click on an actual take, or at the very least have to add a modifier to create an empty space.

Imagine working on a large drum or orchestral comp and needing to navigate around... and conceivably anywhere you click could mess up your comp.



Cheers,

Andrew K

[Thonex]

Setting Up New Comp Can be Tedious:

When you create a new Comp, I'm trying to think of a real-world use case where you wouldn't want the latest takes to be automatically selected for the comp as a starting point. When you recorded multiple punch-ins, usually you move on after you have the "good" take. The earlier takes are usually the ones you want to replace. Think about punching-in multiple drum fixes.

It would seem sensible and efficient to me to automatically assign the last takes to a new comp. Or at least have the option "New Comp using last takes". Look how long it takes me to do a simple starting point below:




Cheers,

Andrew K

[Thonex]

Possible Empty Take Bug:

After you finish your comp and you "commit" by leaving Fixed Lanes and Turning Off Comping, Emtpy Takes are created (I'm not sure if this is always). This creates havoc with certain actions/scripts where you will get nil errors on empty takes. The way to fix this is to use a script "Remove All Empty Takes" (or similar)... but this feels like a bug.

Maybe upon closing Comps, any empty Takes should be reconciled (i.e., deleted)? The empty items are to the right... I had to massively zoom in or I would have missed it. After I deleted the empty takes, the crossfade script worked.



Cheers,

Andrew K

[Edgemeal]

Originally Posted by Thonex

Dangerous:

I find it pretty dangerous to be able to inadvertently click on any lane's empty space and have it alter the comp (as seen below).

Change the fixed lane mouse modifier, single click, to no action or something else.

[MonkeyBars]

Originally Posted by Thonex

It would seem sensible and efficient to me to automatically assign the last takes to a new comp.

+1 Agree strongly with at least having an option for this behavior to be default. I recommend it be enabled by default for new installs

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by Edgemeal

Change the fixed lane mouse modifier, single click, to no action or something else.

I don't think that solves the issue. Because then I wouldn't even be able to simply select a take when I deliberately left-click on a take. When comping, one is typically choosing between different takes. I think the default behavior of comping emptiness is an exception, not a norm.

[EDIT] Maybe a solution would be to add a Fixed Lane Mouse Modifier... something like this: Left Click: Move Take to Comp Area to Lane under the mouse if NOT EMPTY.

[EDIT 2] OK... after further testing, I think I can live with assigning a left-click to move the cursor to the mouse position. that's a useful and innocuous solution. I wouldn't have thought of that without your input.

Thanks, Edgemeal!!!

[Sexan]

There are multiple options to start comp:
1.Comp into empty lane
2.Comp into copy of this lane
3.Comp into this lane

For your setting up comp post is the option 2 you are looking for?

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by Sexan

There are multiple options to start comp:
1.Comp into empty lane
2.Comp into copy of this lane
3.Comp into this lane

For your setting up comp post is the option 2 you are looking for?

Hi Sexan,

Thanks for chiming in. I did try all the comp options. None of them work from the starting point of just having created a new comp. Once you have created your first comp, from scratch and already added the takes you need, then you can use those other options to populate new lanes. But there's no way (that I know of) to have the comp function (created for the first time) automatically assign the most recent takes to a new comp. I hope this makes sense.

Cheers,

Andrew K

[Sexan]

Yeah I get it, I just thought it will maybe have similar result. Yeah that option would be nice

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by Edgemeal

Change the fixed lane mouse modifier, single click, to no action or something else.

OK... after further testing, I think I can live with assigning a left-click to move the cursor to the mouse position. that's a useful and innocuous solution to the "dangerous assign emptiness to a comp by clicking in an empty space" problem. I wouldn't have thought of that without your input.

Thanks, Edgemeal!!!

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by Thonex

Setting Up New Comp Can be Tedious:

When you create a new Comp, I'm trying to think of a real-world use case where you wouldn't want the latest takes to be automatically selected for the comp as a starting point. When you recorded multiple punch-ins, usually you move on after you have the "good" take. The earlier takes are usually the ones you want to replace. Think about punching-in multiple drum fixes.

It would seem sensible and efficient to me to automatically assign the last takes to a new comp. Or at least have the option "New Comp using last takes". Look how long it takes me to do a simple starting point below:

Exactly fully agreed, suggested the same recently too.

After recording it could set comping on, show the comping lane and set a comp area at the size of time selection to the last lane.
It would look like this:

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Thonex

OK... after further testing, I think I can live with assigning a left-click to move the cursor to the mouse position. that's a useful and innocuous solution to the "dangerous assign emptiness to a comp by clicking in an empty space" problem. I wouldn't have thought of that without your input.

Thanks, Edgemeal!!!

Left-drag however remains as a "draw comp area" when in Comp Mode, and there's no context to disable it.

[ferropop]

This is what happens if you record new passes while in comp mode:



Basically the old Splits behaviour, with comp area boundaries at every single edge.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by ferropop

This is what happens if you record new passes while in comp mode:
...

Basically the old Splits behaviour, with comp area boundaries at every single edge.

Interesting. I would think that is desired and expected behavior. I hadn't tried to record while in Comp mode yet. I'm not so bold .... yet.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by ferropop

Left-drag however remains as a "draw comp area" when in Comp Mode, and there's no context to disable it.

I think that's incorrect unless I'm misunderstanding you. You can assign the Left-Drag to "no Action" if you want:

[Mercado_Negro]

+ macOS: allow numpad enter to close modeless windows etc [t=276154]

Now the numpad enter key doesn't work on plug-ins.

Since you're working on this area, could you please take a look at this problem with the enter key please?

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=257570

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Thonex

Interesting. I would think that is desired and expected behavior. I hadn't tried to record while in Comp mode yet. I'm not so bold .... yet.

I would expect the recording pass to be a single contiguous comp area, not split across every single other area it crosses. It's literally the fatal flaw of the old comping system, reborn.

You hit record once, so you should get one comp area.

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by Thonex

I think that's incorrect unless I'm misunderstanding you. You can assign the Left-Drag to "no Action" if you want:

Try dragging outside a fixed-lane comp area. These areas are not part of the FLCA context, yet they default to drawing comp areas with left-drag, and there's no way to disable it.

Maybe that's good, I'm not sure? My gut tells me anything "destructive" should require a modifier.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by ferropop

I would expect the recording pass to be a single contiguous comp area, not split across every single other area it crosses. It's literally the fatal flaw of the old comping system, reborn.

You hit record once, so you should get one comp area.

I see what you are saying. I'm so used to their Take system that comping orchestral edits (tons of them), I've actually grown to appreciate the splitting because they are 100% transparent and offer me a REALLY fast way to zip through takes without needing to chop stuff. That said, I do see your point.

My guess is the devs may have that capability. They already have the Collapse into Takes feature as demonstrated by Sexan. Maybe that is an approach? From what I glean they want to get basic functionality down first I guess:

Originally Posted by Sexan

: