Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Alls I know is what Geoff said about it once, "It uses the value from the controller as a delta and adds it to the current param value.

If the value is negative, that amounts to subtracting it from the current param value."

But I've never actually seen it used and still don't fully understand the use-case for it. I don't understand how the controller value becomes a delta. Like what if the current controller value is 7E. How does that become the delta? Or is it for encoders only? And do we still need it in that case when there's already all this custom delta stuff.

So yeah, would also love to get that better documented and see an example because I'm really clueless and the wiki reflects that.

FXParamRelative is indeed for encoders and probably redundant at his point.

Unless anyone complains, let's remove it.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Also, good thoughts on this. Maybe it's not worth the effort of doing natively when Reaper+custom actions can get there too.

The whole Group discussion came from a request to bring back Track Pinning.

We were exploring the possibility of leveraging Reaper's Group functionality to implement Pinning.

However, through the discussion it has become clear the Groups are not really Pinning, so, yeah, maybe leave Groups alone.

As MixMonkey said, Pinning really means freezing a Track on a particular Control Surface Channel, and allowing other Tracks to bank around it.

I don't really like that due to the programming complexity, but maybe a compromise would be a "Pinned" Zone that showed Pinned Tracks.

The maximum available Pinned Tracks could never, by definition, exceed the number of Control Surface Channels (aka no banking), but would have the Pinned Track feature of being able to Pin Tracks "out of order" compared to the Reaper Track layout.

The downside is that the other unpinned Tracks would not be simultaneously visible.

Don't know if that approach satisfies the use cases that caused Track Pinning to resurface.

Open to suggestions...

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Open to suggestions...

Whilst I don't have anything against a Pinned Zone showing Pinned tracks, this is really sort of an ad-hoc surface group, where you select tracks on the surface as you did previously to "Pin" them but now you access a "Pinned Zone" which displays just the pinned tracks.

My thinking was: if you were going to do this, why not leverage the Reaper Group system in the same way we do for VCAs. Personally, I sometimes create VCA groups for sole purpose of being able to isolate a bunch of tracks easily on the surface and I really love the drill down capability. I think if that were applied to groups generally, it would be a very powerful feature.

Could you do this with Reaper Actions? Of course, the Folder mode can be re-created using Reaper Actions, but Geoff's implementation is much more elegant and only affects the surface.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Whilst I don't have anything against a Pinned Zone showing Pinned tracks, this is really sort of an ad-hoc surface group, where you select tracks on the surface as you did previously to "Pin" them but now you access a "Pinned Zone" which displays just the pinned tracks.

My thinking was: if you were going to do this, why not leverage the Reaper Group system in the same way we do for VCAs. Personally, I sometimes create VCA groups for sole purpose of being able to isolate a bunch of tracks easily on the surface and I really love the drill down capability. I think if that were applied to groups generally, it would be a very powerful feature.

Could you do this with Reaper Actions? Of course, the Folder mode can be re-created using Reaper Actions, but Geoff's implementation is much more elegant and only affects the surface.

Thanks for the input, the only advantage I see to a true Pinned Tracks solution is the ability to Pin tracks in a different order than they appear in Reaper.

The recent request asked for this specific functionality.

[Geoff Waddington]

Just checked PayPal, donations so far this month -- $6.62, seriously ?

C'mon folks, you're better than that.

[UNdark]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Also, good thoughts on this. Maybe it's not worth the effort of doing natively when Reaper+custom actions can get there too.

I too use a named method natively in reaper, works perfectly and it's flexible ,so you have a few options of instrument names per button for different styles of music.
It's not hard to do and would hate to think Geoff is spending his precious time and talent on something that can be done by the user. I've made vids on this too. The action list in reaper method, can go a long way deep I detail ... using modifiers to isolate tracks/busses/ tracks with audio on/ midi, all per instrument - quick view stuff

[jacksoonbrowne]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Just checked PayPal, donations so far this month -- $6.62, seriously ?

C'mon folks, you're better than that.

Mucho Dinaro on its way from me to you soon Geoff

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

FXParamRelative is indeed for encoders and probably redundant at his point.

Unless anyone complains, let's remove it.

Could we have a FXPramaReverse that throws out [1-(encodervalue(0-1))] eg reverse function control, instead.
Encoder at 0 gives out a value of 1
Encoder at 1 gives out a value of 0
and all the inbetweens take care of themselves. lol
{ 0.2 on encoder results as 1-0.2=0.8
0.7654 on encoder results as 1-0.7654=0.2346 }


I've now come across a few FX that could utilise that to make it more intuitive.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

Could we have a FXPramaReverse that throws out [1-(encodervalue(0-1))] eg reverse function control, instead.
Encoder at 0 gives out a value of 1
Encoder at 1 gives out a value of 0
and all the inbetweens take care of themselves. lol
{ 0.2 on encoder results as 1-0.2=0.8
0.7654 on encoder results as 1-0.7654=0.2346 }


I've now come across a few FX that could utilise that to make it more intuitive.

We already have an "InvertFB" modifier, might be better to just add an "Invert" modifier.

[Freex]

I couldn't get the invertFB to do anything?

No what I expected/wanted anyway.


I've had a few FX that, for reason unknown to me or possible most of the world, visually move "backwards" as the value increases, so turning the encoder CW makes the UI move CCW, or a cab where mic placement moves left with CW movements and right with CCW.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

We already have an "InvertFB" modifier, might be better to just add an "Invert" modifier.

An Invert modifier is definitely an oft-requested feature and would be a great addition. Some plugin knobs are backwards, which creates a weird experience where your eyes are watching the knob go one way while you turn another.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

I couldn't get the invertFB to do anything?

InvertFB was designed for lights.

So, say you had a controller that had a light that would come on when the EQ section was engaged -- e.g. Softube Console 1.

This is backwards to Reaper's Bypassed checkbox.

That's the problem InvertFB originally solved.

So, we need to do 2 things:

Improve InvertFB to handle feedback for any control.

Implement Invert for any control.

Working on it...

[Geoff Waddington]

Update:

This will only work for continuous values.

For stepped values, there is no guarantee the mirroring is equivalent.

Likewise for JSFX.

[uksnowy]

Apologies if I missed the post and this thread is vast.

Should my V1 *.mst and *.zon files work with CSI V2?

I had to upgrade to WIN 10 over the weekend and after installing everything and upgrading CSI to V2, my previous mst and zon files are not working. If I use the stock MCU mst and zon everything works fine. One difference I have noticed is that the MCU zon files are split into many files, Is this how now has to work?

How do I get my V1 files working with CSI V2

[airon]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Just checked PayPal, donations so far this month -- $6.62, seriously ?

C'mon folks, you're better than that.

Yep. Sent. I look at this like a Patreon project. Worth it, since I work with CSI all day, and v3 brings the auto-fx-mapping to the table. Already a time saver, since I'll be customizing every generated map for even more effective use on my Faderport 16. Good to have that starting point, and I'm still learning how to use it well.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by uksnowy

Apologies if I missed the post and this thread is vast.

Should my V1 *.mst and *.zon files work with CSI V2?

I had to upgrade to WIN 10 over the weekend and after installing everything and upgrading CSI to V2, my previous mst and zon files are not working. If I use the stock MCU mst and zon everything works fine. One difference I have noticed is that the MCU zon files are split into many files, Is this how now has to work?

How do I get my V1 files working with CSI V2

There were significant changes to .zon file handling from v1 to v2. The biggest being one zone per .zon file.

Check the v2 Wiki link in my signature, go to the Change Log page, then start at the bottom and work your way up. Post in the CSI Device Setup thread if you need help.

I also HIGHLY RECOMMEND downloading the CSI Support Files and checking out the MCU/X-Touch zones for examples/reference.

[andyp24]

Hi Geoff

Any update on what's happening with development of the SCE24? There was talk of a new firmware to improve integration with CSI but it's all gone very quiet.

It's a lovely piece of hardware with tons of promise, but could definitely work better.

Thanks
Andy

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Hi Geoff

Any update on what's happening with development of the SCE24? There was talk of a new firmware to improve integration with CSI but it's all gone very quiet.

It's a lovely piece of hardware with tons of promise, but could definitely work better.

Thanks
Andy

Waiting on the new firmware from Luis.

[airon]

I've been using v3 for a little while. It seems stable for the Faderport 16, which FUnkybot helped a ton with. I'll try to tackle the Midi Fighter Twister next. End of April I'll have time to dive in deep, hopefully before bit by bit.

How is v3 in terms of feature completeness if you're even considering it right now ?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by airon

I've been using v3 for a little while. It seems stable for the Faderport 16, which FUnkybot helped a ton with. I'll try to tackle the Midi Fighter Twister next. End of April I'll have time to dive in deep, hopefully before bit by bit.

How is v3 in terms of feature completeness if you're even considering it right now ?

I don't anticipate major changes to existing features (famous last words ), more along the lines of tweaking/refinement.

Any new features won't affect existing features - more famous last words

[andyp24]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Waiting on the new firmware from Luis.

Any idea when? It's all gone very quiet.... Is it still actively being developed?

I appreciate this isn't your project, but I know you were working closely together on it. If you don't know what the state of affairs is, I'll try and contact Luis.

Thanks
Andy

[Cragster]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Just checked PayPal, donations so far this month -- $6.62, seriously ?

C'mon folks, you're better than that.

Sry Geoff . Just sent !!
Thank you for CSI.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Any idea when? It's all gone very quiet.... Is it still actively being developed?

I appreciate this isn't your project, but I know you were working closely together on it. If you don't know what the state of affairs is, I'll try and contact Luis.

Thanks
Andy

Yeah, getting the word straight from Luis is probably best, please report what you find, I'm anxious too

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

CSI Exp.zip

Added Invert and removed FXParamRelative.

Invert usage:

    Invert+InvertFB+Fader| TrackVolume

Invert causes upward fader movements on the Control Surface to result in downward fader movements in Reaper.

InvertFB causes upward Fader movements in Reaper (e.g. using the mouse) to result in downward fader movements on the Control Surface.

Note this is for any control, not just faders.

[airon]

Cool. Very flexible. I've run in to some of these parameters and hope to find them again .

Btw, in case anyone is wondering, the new version is here:
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

You can always find it by searching for "CSI" on https://stash.reaper.fm .

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

CSI Exp.zip

Added Invert and removed FXParamRelative.

Invert usage:

    Invert+InvertFB+Fader| TrackVolume

Invert causes upward fader movements on the Control Surface to result in downward fader movements in Reaper.

InvertFB causes upward Fader movements in Reaper (e.g. using the mouse) to result in downward fader movements on the Control Surface.

Note this is for any control, not just faders.

Just tried it on an encoder on the C4, just got a jitter back and forth, no real movement at all, nothing usable. (that might be what you were getting at earlier)

[Funkybot]

First, woohoo! New CSI build day with the long requested invert modifier. Thanks Geoff!

Originally Posted by Freex

Just tried it on an encoder on the C4, just got a jitter back and forth, no real movement at all, nothing usable. (that might be what you were getting at earlier)

Same result here. Using on my MFTwister.

Invert+InvertFB+RotaryB3 FXParam 0 [ (0.001,0.002,0.003,0.004,0.005,0.006,0.0075,0.01,0.02,0.035,0.05) ]

Tried various permutations and got the same result with each: 1) both Invert and InvertFB, 2) without InvertFB, 3) without the acceleration.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

First, woohoo! New CSI build day with the long requested invert modifier. Thanks Geoff!



Same result here. Using on my MFTwister.

Invert+InvertFB+RotaryB3 FXParam 0 [ (0.001,0.002,0.003,0.004,0.005,0.006,0.0075,0.01,0.02,0.035,0.05) ]

Tried various permutations and got the same result with each: 1) both Invert and InvertFB, 2) without InvertFB, 3) without the acceleration.

Wondering if there are stepped parameters.

Could you try it on a TrackVolume Fader and see what happens.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Wondering if there are stepped parameters.

Could you try it on a TrackVolume Fader and see what happens.

The first parameter did have steps, but I tried on a continuous control and got similar results.

Try this please: use a Rotary in your SurfaceFXLayout instead of Fader.

Zone SurfaceFXLayout MCUFXLayout
	Rotary FXParam
	DisplayUpper FixedTextDisplay
	DisplayLower FXParamValueDisplay
ZoneEnd

Then in the Auto-Generated FX Zone, add something like this to a continuous parameter...

	MCUFXLayout+Invert+InvertFB "" 4 FXParam 19 "Output Gain"

Then turn the encoder move that param when you load the zone.

Result: Invert does not work, just erratic jumping between two values.

Result when used on a Fader: Invert works.

Hope that helps.

[uksnowy]

Originally Posted by uksnowy

Apologies if I missed the post and this thread is vast.

Should my V1 *.mst and *.zon files work with CSI V2?

I had to upgrade to WIN 10 over the weekend and after installing everything and upgrading CSI to V2, my previous mst and zon files are not working. If I use the stock MCU mst and zon everything works fine. One difference I have noticed is that the MCU zon files are split into many files, Is this how now has to work?

How do I get my V1 files working with CSI V2

Bumping as my query slipped below another.
I have been exploring and I can't understand why my V1.x mst and zon files don't work. I can get the MCU.mst and MCU.zon from the support files working so I know I have everything installed correctly.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by uksnowy

Bumping as my query slipped below another.
I have been exploring and I can't understand why my V1.x mst and zon files don't work. I can get the MCU.mst and MCU.zon from the support files working so I know I have everything installed correctly.

Did you see my response to you? There were large changes between v1 and v2 zone files. Look for my reply.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

The first parameter did have steps, but I tried on a continuous control and got similar results.

Try this please: use a Rotary in your SurfaceFXLayout instead of Fader.

Zone SurfaceFXLayout MCUFXLayout
	Rotary FXParam
	DisplayUpper FixedTextDisplay
	DisplayLower FXParamValueDisplay
ZoneEnd

Then in the Auto-Generated FX Zone, add something like this to a continuous parameter...

	MCUFXLayout+Invert+InvertFB "" 4 FXParam 19 "Output Gain"

Then turn the encoder move that param when you load the zone.

Result: Invert does not work, just erratic jumping between two values.

Result when used on a Fader: Invert works.

Hope that helps.

Got it, investigating...

[uksnowy]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Did you see my response to you? There were large changes between v1 and v2 zone files. Look for my reply.

DOH! no I missed that one. Thank you. Now I know I am not going mad. I will take it from here and thanks again.

[andyp24]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yeah, getting the word straight from Luis is probably best, please report what you find, I'm anxious too

Hi Geoff and other SCE24 users

I've had a very prompt response from Luis. As you know, a simpler firmware with fewer screen options was designed in cooperation with Geoff, which should therefore be simpler for the user and more responsive.

The delay in delivering this has been from the firmware developer in China, who's been busy with other jobs and not prioritising Luis's work. However, Luis says that he's just heard that he may finally be finished with the new firmware (which was rewritten from scratch to optimise it) and he hopes to have something with us in the next week.

Good news
Andy

[Funkybot]

That is good news indeed. Thanks for the update Andy!

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Hi Geoff and other SCE24 users

I've had a very prompt response from Luis. As you know, a simpler firmware with fewer screen options was designed in cooperation with Geoff, which should therefore be simpler for the user and more responsive.

The delay in delivering this has been from the firmware developer in China, who's been busy with other jobs and not prioritising Luis's work. However, Luis says that he's just heard that he may finally be finished with the new firmware (which was rewritten from scratch to optimise it) and he hopes to have something with us in the next week.

Good news
Andy

Great news, thanks Andy (and Luis) !

[Tedsorvino]

Hi. I’m new in this thread.
I decided to try the csi extension since apparently it can really help me more than the other extension i used (klinke) in the way i ‘ve set my workflow.
So i would like to ask other Mackie Mcu Pro users if there are any configuration files and overlay templates for the csi extension? If there could you please provide related links?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Tedsorvino

Hi. I’m new in this thread.
I decided to try the csi extension since apparently it can really help me more than the other extension i used (klinke) in the way i ‘ve set my workflow.
So i would like to ask other Mackie Mcu Pro users if there are any configuration files and overlay templates for the csi extension? If there could you please provide related links?

Check out Geoff Waddington's signature in the post right above yours. You'll see a link to "Support Files". That's where you can find the MCU/X-Touch files. Post back in the CSI Device Setup thread if you run into trouble.

[Tedsorvino]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Check out Geoff Waddington's signature in the post right above yours. You'll see a link to "Support Files". That's where you can find the MCU/X-Touch files. Post back in the CSI Device Setup thread if you run into trouble.

Cheers Funkybot. I will check everything out and i’ll let you know

[Sweetfoot]

I'm building a simple dedicated MIDI controller for toggling snap, grouping and auto-crossfades.

I'd like to use toggle switches so I can feel if they're on without looking away from whatever I'm editing.

How do I setup my OST and ZON files to incorporate these toggles?

My OST includes definitions of both "on" and "off" messages from the toggles:

Widget snap
Press 9b 3c 63 8b 3c 63
WidgetEnd

Widget grouping
Press 9b 3d 63 8b 3d 63
WidgetEnd

Widget xfade
Press 9b 3e 63 8b 3e 63
WidgetEnd

and my ZON file is just triggering reaper actions:

Zone "Buttons"

snap Reaper "1157"
grouping Reaper "1156"
xfade Reaper "40041"

ZoneEnd

I know I'm approaching this wrong, but I can't figure out how to do it the right way