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Old 05-23-2023, 05:03 PM   #22641
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Is that a new thing? 'cos it feels kinda sluggish now. I can see the parameters map like a wave across the C4. It used to be instantaneous (after the first load of any particular plugin).
It's been around for at least 6 months, when did you see it start being sluggish ?
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:07 PM   #22642
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No luck with this when I tried it. It would seem to need the index from the |, I can't seem to specify it manually.

I was trying to get the instant load benefit of SelectedTrackFX with the versatility of the FX menu.

On a related note, is there any way the FX menu could remain active when a plugin is mapped? If it was possible, you would be able to move from plugin to plugin on the track without needing to GoHome (to get back to the FX menu) each time.
Ah, looked at the code a bit more closely, we would need a new Action -- GoNumberedFXSlot -- or something like that.

Lots of future work to do with FX Menu related stuff, good feature request.
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:22 PM   #22643
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No luck with this when I tried it. It would seem to need the index from the |, I can't seem to specify it manually.

I was trying to get the instant load benefit of SelectedTrackFX with the versatility of the FX menu.

On a related note, is there any way the FX menu could remain active when a plugin is mapped? If it was possible, you would be able to move from plugin to plugin on the track without needing to GoHome (to get back to the FX menu) each time.
Away from the studio right now, but I think that calling "GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackFXMenu" again was working for me...
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:23 PM   #22644
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It's been around for at least 6 months, when did you see it start being sluggish ?
It's been bugging me for ages, but it's confusing because the way it was before, the first map of any particular plugin would take a little longer, but subsequent maps were much faster.

So now I guess I'm missing the speed up after working on a project for a while (where every plugin map would have been loaded once)

It's not a shocking slowdown, but it is noticable. You would have thought that loading from NVMe discs in a Mac Studio would be much faster than the MIDI connection to the C4, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course I could be kidding myself about how fast it used to be or it's related to the change of computer (Intel Hackintosh to Mac Studio)
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:26 PM   #22645
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Computers have come a long way since CSI started almost 7 years ago

Wondering if Refresh All Surfaces is even necessary anymore.

Currently, CSI reads FX Zones from disk each time they are activated, wonder if we should do the same for Home, Buttons, Associated Zones, etc.

That would make Zone editing/customization fully real time, much less cumbersome.

Should we try it ?

[edit] Of course Refresh All Surfaces would still be needed for CSI.ini type edits, Surfaces, Pages, Surface Assignments, etc.
I believe it should be fine, let the OS do some caching
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:28 PM   #22646
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
It's been bugging me for ages, but it's confusing because the way it was before, the first map of any particular plugin would take a little longer, but subsequent maps were much faster.

So now I guess I'm missing the speed up after working on a project for a while (where every plugin map would have been loaded once)

It's not a shocking slowdown, but it is noticable. You would have thought that loading from NVMe discs in a Mac Studio would be much faster than the MIDI connection to the C4, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course I could be kidding myself about how fast it used to be or it's related to the change of computer (Intel Hackintosh to Mac Studio)
Ah yes, the C4 is still on good old slow MIDI

It could be that the reload causes a refresh of all parameters, hence the slowdown.

Will have a look.
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:29 PM   #22647
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Away from the studio right now, but I think that calling "GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackFXMenu" again was working for me...
That's still one more button push though.

I guess I'm trying to have the FXMenu stay active after GoFXSlot has mapped a plugin slot, so I could have the FXMenu on row A of the C4, say and the plugins map to rows B,C and D.

Last edited by MixMonkey; 05-23-2023 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:50 PM   #22648
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I guess I'm trying to have the FXMenu stay active after GoFXSlot has mapped a plugin slot, so I could have the FXMenu on row A of the C4, say and the plugins map to rows B,C and D.
Hmmm...

I don't see why that wouldn't work.

What do your Zone files look like ?

Are you using auto-mapping ?

If so, you would need to adjust the layout.
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Old 05-23-2023, 05:57 PM   #22649
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Hmmm...

I don't see why that wouldn't work.

What do your Zone files look like ?

Are you using auto-mapping ?

If so, you would need to adjust the layout.
No auto-mapping. I was actually trying to make this work for the BCR2000, with the FXMenu across one of its two rows of 8 buttons. Let me try this on the C4 and see if I fare better.

I was expecting the GoFXSlot buttons to remain active as long as the FX being mapped didn't overwrite them but that didn't seem to be the case. Will experiment more.
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Old 05-23-2023, 06:51 PM   #22650
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That's still one more button push though.

I guess I'm trying to have the FXMenu stay active after GoFXSlot has mapped a plugin slot, so I could have the FXMenu on row A of the C4, say and the plugins map to rows B,C and D.
Sounds very interesting. It would be great to be able to send other surfaces to some particular SubZone too
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Old 05-23-2023, 08:40 PM   #22651
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I was expecting the GoFXSlot buttons to remain active as long as the FX being mapped didn't overwrite them but that didn't seem to be the case. Will experiment more.
I'm using LeaveSubZone to go from my FX SubZones back to the SelectedTrackFXMenu, and something similar happened to me when trying to use this in the SelectedTrackFXMenu.zon
Code:
  Plugin                  LeaveSubZone
It wouldn't stay mapped after GoFXSlot, so I ended up adding the very same line to each FX SubZone and everything works as expected.
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Old 05-24-2023, 04:14 AM   #22652
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It wouldn't stay mapped after GoFXSlot, so I ended up adding the very same line to each FX SubZone and everything works as expected.
I just realised I had the same issue with my iPadMixer, which has the FXMenu permanently visible and solved it in much the same way:
Code:
Zone SelectedTrackFXMenu
        DisplayL|           FXMenuNameDisplay
        Shift+ButtonL|      ToggleFXBypass   
        Option+ButtonL|     ToggleFXOffline
        FXBypassL|          ToggleFXBypass   { #808080FF #1D521EFF }
        FXOfflineL|         ToggleFXOffline  { #AB120EFF #00000000 }
        Alt+ButtonL|        Reaper _S&M_SELFX| 
        Alt+ButtonL|        Reaper _S&M_TOGLFLOATFXEL
        Alt+ButtonL|        GoFXSlot
        ButtonL|            SendOSCMessage "/Pager 1"
        ButtonL|            GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackFXMenu 
        ButtonL|            GoFXSlot    
ZoneEnd
As you suggested, another call to GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackFXMenu, on the same button as GoFXSlot.
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Old 05-24-2023, 04:17 AM   #22653
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It would be great to be able to send other surfaces to some particular SubZone too
Would that be for the purposes of synchronising SubZones for a particular plugin across multiple surfaces?
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Old 05-24-2023, 11:25 AM   #22654
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Would that be for the purposes of synchronising SubZones for a particular plugin across multiple surfaces?
Yup... that would be great. As an Extender user myself, that would be the only way to have the Extender work as a proper extender of the main MCU/X-Touch.

Right now the extender is just another surface and I need to dedicate some of the extender track buttons to do SubZone navigation.

Suppose you want to map 16 EQ bands over the combined tracks. If you have the MCU goto, let's say Q-SubZone, Slope-SubZone, or whatever, the extender will remain in the main FX SubZone and to go there you need to map some track buttons (i.e. Mute1, Solo1) to get to the same SubZone on the Extender.

I believe it's the only downside I find nowadays with CSI, still being the best and most customizable Extension in Reaper for such purpuses.

Now, thinking out loud, that subzone "follow" behavior would have to be "switchable" since I can think of some scenarios where users may want to have different surfaces in different subzones.
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Old 05-24-2023, 12:06 PM   #22655
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Y
Now, thinking out loud, that subzone "follow" behavior would have to be "switchable" since I can think of some scenarios where users may want to have different surfaces in different subzones.
That would be me with two Mackie C4s Very often have different plugins on each or different SubZones of the same plugin.

Definitely needs to be switchable, as do all the broadcast/receive scenarios really. It's perfectly fine having everything Broadcast/Received as a default but it's essential to be able to break that link where necessary.
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:37 AM   #22656
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Geoff, is there a chance of developing a gentler reset routine when moving between Associated Zones?

Having 32 faders slam down to zero and back up to a new (or in many cases exactly the same) position is pretty brutal.
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:40 AM   #22657
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Geoff, is there a chance of developing a gentler reset routine when moving between Associated Zones?

Having 32 faders slam down to zero and back up to a new (or in many cases exactly the same) position is pretty brutal.
Folks have been bugging me for this for a while, I will see if it can be improved.
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:42 AM   #22658
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Folks have been bugging me for this for a while, I will see if it can be improved.
In an ideal world () the the routine would look at the old and new fader positions and move between them. If the position hasn't changed- no movement.
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:44 AM   #22659
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In an ideal world () the the routine would look at the old and new fader positions and move between them. If the position hasn't changed- no movement.
But in the real world what happens is, the first Zone deactivates, then the second one activates...

And if the second Zone was previously at a particular value, it would not resend the redundant value, leaving the Fader at the previous Zone value, and the whole surface would get out of synch

[edit] This would actually be a huge architecture change, but one that may be warranted
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:52 AM   #22660
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But in the real world what happens is, the first Zone deactivates, then the second one activates...
Don't deactivate the first Zone until the second zone has been analyzed for differences (and that's easy for me to say)

Actually, all we're really talking about here is the motorized faders. I'm pretty sure everything else would go un-noticed.
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:54 AM   #22661
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Have just come across a sort of bug. The channel start position you set in the prefs also affects the sends (and probably FX, receive etc, haven't checked)

I have my MCU start at channel 8 (there is an XT to its left) If I GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackSend, I only see sends starting at slot 8 for the selected track. Workaround is to also have the selected track sends appear on the XT to the left (which will show sends 1-8, as it starts at channel 0)
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:56 AM   #22662
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Don't deactivate the first Zone until the second zone has been analyzed for differences (and that's easy for me to say)

Actually, all we're really talking about here is the motorized faders. I'm pretty sure everything else would go un-noticed.
Well, it is more than just the Faders.

If implemented correctly, this would also stop those superfluous C4 updates you are getting.

You now have me intrigued

The old architecture wouldn't support this, but I'll do some pondering about how to implement this in the latest architecture...
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Old 05-25-2023, 11:57 AM   #22663
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Have just come across a sort of bug. The channel start position you set in the prefs also affects the sends (and probably FX, receive etc, haven't checked)

I have my MCU start at channel 8 (there is an XT to its left) If I GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackSend, I only see sends starting at slot 8 for the selected track. Workaround is to also have the selected track sends appear on the XT to the left (which will show sends 1-8, as it starts at channel 0)
Thanks, will check it out.
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Old 05-25-2023, 12:05 PM   #22664
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Is there a way of disabling the broadcast of GoAssociatedZone, so it remains local to the surface it was initiated from?

This isn't an issue with GoHome (which only seems to work locally, and, according to the Wiki has a global "AllSurfacesGoHome" Action).

I got my row A FX menu idea working, but by calling GoHome before each GoFXSlot (the FX menu on the C4s is an IncludedZone). The new setup is very nice, much better than having to GoHome manually each time to get back to the FX menu.

I need to convert a whole bunch of FX.zon to not use Row A so I can give it a proper test drive
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Old 05-25-2023, 12:44 PM   #22665
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Is there a way of disabling the broadcast of GoAssociatedZone, so it remains local to the surface it was initiated from?

This isn't an issue with GoHome (which only seems to work locally, and, according to the Wiki has a global "AllSurfacesGoHome" Action).

I got my row A FX menu idea working, but by calling GoHome before each GoFXSlot (the FX menu on the C4s is an IncludedZone). The new setup is very nice, much better than having to GoHome manually each time to get back to the FX menu.

I need to convert a whole bunch of FX.zon to not use Row A so I can give it a proper test drive
I think it's more a matter of a re-arch.

This has echoes from the dreaded stack problems we used to have.

To ensure this doesn't happen, CSI update takes a brute force approach.

It goes through the active Zones in priority order, FX first, then Associated, etc., until finally getting to Home.

It starts with the entire list of Widgets, and, if it finds that a Zone uses a Widget, it adds it to the used Widgets collection, which prevents any other Zone from updating it.

This is cumbersome and inefficient.

The reality in CSI is, a Widget is either "owned" by a particular Zone at any given moment, or it is completely "unowned" in CSI.

A re arch would enable a much more intuitive and efficient update mechanism.

CSI would just have to update all Widgets.

The Widgets would be "owned" by a particular Zone, or, if "unowned", would be zeroed.
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Old 05-25-2023, 01:23 PM   #22666
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I think it's more a matter of a re-arch.
That sounds like a fairly massive undertaking. Yikes!

Incidentally, regarding the sends bug I mention earlier. I did the workaround so that the XTs were included in SelectedTrackSend, so a selected track's sends map across 32 faders. Obviously, I don't have 32 sends on a track and when CSI 'runs out' of sends to map, rather than the fader being at zero (kinda what I was expecting) it retains control of the track volume.

This isn't a big deal- the displays for those tracks are blank, so there's no confusion, but it does play in to the widget assignment discussion, I think.
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Old 05-25-2023, 01:39 PM   #22667
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I got my row A FX menu idea working, but by calling GoHome before each GoFXSlot (the FX menu on the C4s is an IncludedZone).
Apologies for quoting myself, but I wanted to add the reason for calling GoHome instead of GoAssociated Zone was because calling GoAssociated Zone (the FXMenu) causes a reset across all the surfaces and also activates the FX menu on them.

Calling GoHome (on the C4) doesn't do this, it just reactivates the IncludedZones, all of which are instantly overwritten by the immediately following GoFXSlot Action, except for the FX menu on rowA.
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Old 05-25-2023, 02:04 PM   #22668
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Apologies for quoting myself, but I wanted to add the reason for calling GoHome instead of GoAssociated Zone was because calling GoAssociated Zone (the FXMenu) causes a reset across all the surfaces and also activates the FX menu on them.

Calling GoHome (on the C4) doesn't do this, it just reactivates the IncludedZones, all of which are instantly overwritten by the immediately following GoFXSlot Action, except for the FX menu on rowA.
Yeah, rethinking the re arch, the dreaded stack problems are far to close to the surface.

I do have something else in mind though, stay tuned...
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Old 05-25-2023, 02:53 PM   #22669
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New EXP build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Possible fix for jumping Faders.

This may have some bad side effects when deactivating Zones.

Please give it a thorough go, and report anything you find.
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Old 05-25-2023, 03:23 PM   #22670
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
New EXP build is up.
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip
Possible fix for jumping Faders.
This may have some bad side effects when deactivating Zones.
Please give it a thorough go, and report anything you find.
SMOOOOOOOOTH! Beautiful the way the faders just move from the track position to the send position when you enter the send Zone and back when you exit.

Currently only working on the MCU (the surface that initiated the send Zone). The faders don't move on the XT to it's left, though its displays and buttons change.

Even so, impressive!
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Old 05-25-2023, 03:36 PM   #22671
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SMOOOOOOOOTH! Beautiful the way the faders just move from the track position to the send position when you enter the send Zone and back when you exit.

Currently only working on the MCU (the surface that initiated the send Zone). The faders don't move on the XT to it's left, though its displays and buttons change.

Even so, impressive!
Cool, see next post for part 2.
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Old 05-25-2023, 03:39 PM   #22672
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New build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Added a new Action -- ClearZone

This deactivates and clears a Zone, great for returning to FX menu for instance.

usage:

Code:
Zone "VST: UAD Harrison 32C (Universal Audio, Inc.)" "Har32C"

    	Plugin      		ClearZone
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Old 05-25-2023, 04:02 PM   #22673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Added a new Action -- ClearZone
This deactivates and clears a Zone, great for returning to FX menu for instance.

usage:

Code:
Zone "VST: UAD Harrison 32C (Universal Audio, Inc.)" "Har32C"

    	Plugin      		ClearZone
A useful addition I'm sure, but it doesn't help if the FX menu is always present on the surface. Agreed, I can add this to an fx.zon file to "reactivate" the unresponsive FX menu, but that's one more button push before I can make a different selection from the FX menu. If I do this:
Code:
Zone SelectedTrackFXMenu
        DisplayUpperA|              FXMenuNameDisplay
        DisplayLowerA|              FXBypassDisplay
        RotaryPushA|                Reaper _S&M_TOGLFLOATFX|
        RotaryPushA|                GoHome
        RotaryPushA|                GoFXSlot
ZoneEnd
...I can switch directly between FX slots from the FX menu on row A.
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Old 05-25-2023, 04:36 PM   #22674
Geoff Waddington
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
A useful addition I'm sure, but it doesn't help if the FX menu is always present on the surface. Agreed, I can add this to an fx.zon file to "reactivate" the unresponsive FX menu, but that's one more button push before I can make a different selection from the FX menu. If I do this:
Code:
Zone SelectedTrackFXMenu
        DisplayUpperA|              FXMenuNameDisplay
        DisplayLowerA|              FXBypassDisplay
        RotaryPushA|                Reaper _S&M_TOGLFLOATFX|
        RotaryPushA|                GoHome
        RotaryPushA|                GoFXSlot
ZoneEnd
...I can switch directly between FX slots from the FX menu on row A.
Yup, for sure, it's more for an MCU, X Touch, etc., where the FX mapping clobbers the menu.

So, is everything working properly so far ?
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Old 05-25-2023, 04:39 PM   #22675
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Yup, for sure, it's more for an MCU, X Touch, etc., where the FX mapping clobbers the menu.

So, is everything working properly so far ?
Seems to be, except the faders don't switch to the send Zone on the XTs, only on the MCU.
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Old 05-25-2023, 04:53 PM   #22676
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Seems to be, except the faders don't switch to the send Zone on the XTs, only on the MCU.
Just the Sends ?

How about Receives, FX Menu, VCA, Folders etc.?
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Old 05-25-2023, 05:11 PM   #22677
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Just the Sends ?

How about Receives, FX Menu, VCA, Folders etc.?
Just Sends and Receives. VCA and Folders are normal. I'm afraid all my FX stuff is on the C4, so it's difficult to check the FXMenu quickly.
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Old 05-25-2023, 05:17 PM   #22678
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Just Sends and Receives. VCA and Folders are normal. I'm afraid all my FX stuff is on the C4, so it's difficult to check the FXMenu quickly.
And Sends and Receives were working prior to this change ?
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Old 05-25-2023, 05:39 PM   #22679
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And Sends and Receives were working prior to this change ?
Ignore me, I'm an imbecile It's all working fine. I made a mistake when I added SelectedTrackSend and Receive to the XT to workaround the channel offset bug.

Your smooth fader reset works great
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Old 05-25-2023, 05:52 PM   #22680
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Ignore me, I'm an imbecile It's all working fine. I made a mistake when I added SelectedTrackSend and Receive to the XT to workaround the channel offset bug.

Your smooth fader reset works great
That's a relief, I was nowhere near code that should have affected that

Please describe the offset bug in detail, I'll tackle that next.
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