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Old 05-28-2009, 01:24 PM   #1
feline1
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Default MIDI Editor can't display Polyphonic Pressure?

I'm running Reaper 3.0 on WinXP.

Am I right in thinking that the MIDI editor can't display or let me edit Polyphonic Pressure?

In the track lane, I can see a big swamp of "controller messages" under the notes, so I presume Reaper knows there's something down there...... but I can't see it in the main editor screen.

Poly pressure would be best displayed just the way note events are, with different colours of the pressure level.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:58 PM   #2
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I think you are right. But you can enter / edit Channel Pressure messages - would that help?

What are you using that responds to these messages?

[Polyphonic Pressure –- also known as Aftertouch information for every key in a MIDI keyboard. The MIDI message values are x"A0" to x"AF" depending on the MIDI channel, followed by Note and pressure values.]
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:03 PM   #3
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Polyphonic pressure is displayed (and can be created/edited) in Reaper's event list editor as "Poly Aftertouch".

Interesting thought, displaying poly pressure in the piano roll. Not sure if the color thing would work, but I could imagine having editable curves overlaying the notes when zoomed in far enough or something. Definitely a very good idea. Does any other app do that?

If I only had a keyboard capable of sending them... to be honest, I don't even know whether I have an instrument that would listen . But I would absolutely like to play around with poly pressure if it wasn't such a drag to edit the messages (not only in Reaper).
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:03 PM   #4
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Channel Pressure wouldn't really help, no.

I have recorded some takes of me playing a mellotron string section sample set on my Akai MPC4000, playing it from my Kurzweil Midiboard.

The Kurzweil is sending poly pressure, and on the MPC, poly pressure is mapped to phase shift..... so I get polyphonic phaseshifting on the mellotron.

Believe me, it's sounds psychedelic as f*ck! lol

I recorded the audio output and the MIDI, just in case I wanted to re-voice it all later.... then I discovered you can't seem to tweak the polypressure from inside Reaper.
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Polyphonic pressure is displayed (and can be created/edited) in Reaper's event list editor as "Poly Aftertouch".
.
As yes, sorry - it is indeed there.

Yeah, a PolyPressure event has a pitch and an intensity (but not a duration -
it just happens at a specified point).

So you are right, it wouldn't be exactly like the Note Events on the piano roll -
it would be more like drawing cc-event curves, only 127 lanes of them along the piano roll! (with some sort of resolution control to tell it when to actually spit out a new intensity value along the curve)

Polypressure is wonderful!

Last edited by feline1; 05-28-2009 at 03:40 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Polyphonic pressure is displayed (and can be created/edited) in Reaper's event list editor as "Poly Aftertouch".
So it is . Well spotted, gofer.

So you would need to see 1 or more poly Aftertouch events for each note. Hmmm. I like it.

Just an initial idea (revised):
[img]http://img32.**************/img32/7426/r300dspat01.png[/img]

Yes, I know, it'll need to deal with overlapping notes too.
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Last edited by DarkStar; 05-29-2009 at 01:55 AM. Reason: revised the pic
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:38 PM   #7
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Not bad, DS

Maybe if we continue thinking one lane, the bars could be faded for non selected notes while note selection would highlight the bunch of events tied to it, making only these events tied to the selected note(s) editable. Thinking about polyphonic and overlapping note material here, which could otherwise be confusing.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:44 PM   #8
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well I guess it depends how abstracted you want to allow it to be.

In the "real world", polyphonic pressure events will be generated from (the sadly few in number...) MIDI controller keyboards which support it, by humans pressing down keys with their fingers -
so there will always have to be a "Note On" event at the beginning of the Polyphonic Pressure data stream.

However if you simply concoct MIDI data in software (e.g. in a Reaper MIDI editor), without using a keyboard to play it in real time,
then you can make polypressure independent from Note Ons and Note Offs,
and in principle your software can route it to any time of control or modulation duty...
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:59 PM   #9
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Makes sense...

But in that case the polyphonic part of the message wouldn't be of any use or would it. I mean what would be the benefit of using these messages if not in conjunction with notes? You could rather use a simple cc if I am not overlooking something.
I should take some time to think it through, but it's tough with neither hard- nor software to play around with it.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:02 PM   #10
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Do bear in mind I'm just thinking out loud.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual Official MIDI Specification had something to say about the relationship between poly pressure and Note Ons.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:19 PM   #11
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Thinking out loud is what I do as well

I am going to try and do some mockup pics of the "curves/events on the notes pane" idea, as that smells like being fairly innovative. But not today, it's getting late over here.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:08 AM   #12
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I didnt understood. There is or there isnt a way for aftertouch editing/visualization in midi editor?
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:18 AM   #13
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You can only see Polyphonic Pressure events in the text-based list,
not in the graphical editor.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:35 AM   #14
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Ouch, painful editing!
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:15 AM   #15
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I have a neat idea for editing poly AT.

Since poly pressure is per note, each note has its own stream of PAT events. Then, since Reaper allows us to zoom into note rectangles to a very ridiculous size, why not use this size?

So, first we should have a button that says "Edit Poly AT", then, when zoom level is high enough, inside every rectangle there's a "Poly AT envelope", that's basically stream of PAT values for that note. And you get that for every note out there.

Opinions?
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I have a neat idea for editing poly AT.

Since poly pressure is per note, each note has its own stream of PAT events. Then, since Reaper allows us to zoom into note rectangles to a very ridiculous size, why not use this size?

So, first we should have a button that says "Edit Poly AT", then, when zoom level is high enough, inside every rectangle there's a "Poly AT envelope", that's basically stream of PAT values for that note. And you get that for every note out there.

Opinions?
I would love that.
Justin? Schwa? Please make a dream... true!
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:41 AM   #17
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I like that idea a lot
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself (post3)
I could imagine having editable curves overlaying the notes when zoomed in far enough or something. Definitely a very good idea. Does any other app do that?
Strictly speaking, PolyPressure is not restricted to notes by the MIDI standard, so for complete editing freedom, it would more be a per-pitch envelope rather than per note.

But of course it can only occur in practice while a key is pressed and only makes sense in combination with it's note, plus I like the idea of poly pressure automatically move and copy with the note.

Thanks for digging this up, I totally forget about this one
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:44 AM   #18
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Polyphonic Aftertouch is indeed the b*stard ginger stepchild of MIDI!
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:09 AM   #19
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Why not make a FR in the appropriate (votable) FeatureRequests section? At least we will see how many people wants it!
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Old 08-30-2009, 12:38 AM   #20
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Bump... I just got an AKai MPD controller and would love to be able to edit poly aftertouch way easier than the event editor.

I don't have any other DAWs, but the only one I seen that can actually record and edit poly pressure events is Macaw.. an open source host.

http://pacificv.prophp.us/music.htm

It's a lil clumsy, but this is a newer app that is just developing. The VSTS that are uncluded can also receive poly pressure as well & it can be mapped anywhere. In the host, poly presure can be mapped to any control of any VSTis that you use.
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Last edited by Saukar30; 08-30-2009 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 12:51 AM   #21
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http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1099

Vote your asses off
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:07 AM   #22
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Got my vote. *bump*
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:25 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saukar30 View Post
Bump... I just got an AKai MPD controller and would love to be able to edit poly aftertouch way easier than the event editor.

I don't have any other DAWs, but the only one I seen that can actually record and edit poly pressure events is Macaw.. an open source host.

http://pacificv.prophp.us/music.htm

It's a lil clumsy, but this is a newer app that is just developing. The VSTS that are uncluded can also receive poly pressure as well & it can be mapped anywhere. In the host, poly presure can be mapped to any control of any VSTis that you use.
I just discovered Macaw, too. It is supposed to be similar to FL Studio. Is this true? I really liked FL Studio but I am running a "borrowed" version of FL6 than one of my buddies let me install on my old computer which is dying. Is Macaw any good?
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:38 AM   #24
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My FR needs more love, people
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Do it again, peeps! Look!




That's how it should be done!

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-04-2014 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 03:38 AM   #26
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Ah, yeah, that's what I meant in post #3. Thanks for doing the nice mockup. I remember I said I'd do one, but errrmmm... forgot .

I'd like to take the opportunity and make a plug for Note-Off velocity. It can't even be displayed, let alone edited in any of Reaper's MIDI editors. Tracker link: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=213
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Old 08-13-2010, 03:40 AM   #27
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there's something very neat and conceptually elegant about the poly pressure data for a note being shown inside that note's own rectangle. I like it

(Although, to be picky - you've shown curves interpolated between the data points -
the interpolation would be up to the receiving device - probably best to keep it linear in this editor?)

Last edited by feline1; 08-13-2010 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 04:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feline1 View Post
(Although, to be picky - you've shown curves interpolated between the data points -
the interpolation would be up to the receiving device - probably best to keep it linear in this editor?)
I just drew the lines freehand ^^'

All the CC data should be shown continuously, Reaper should get rid of the damn blocks!


Pssst, Gofer!

[img]http://a.**************/img819/5023/noteofflane.png[/img]

Last edited by EvilDragon; 08-13-2010 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:35 AM   #29
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well each block is a byte - continuous controller data isn't really continuous at all!
But nonetheless it would look nicer interpolated, I agree!
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:49 AM   #30
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It is only a display thing. Reaper would still read normal MIDI data, but it would interpolate the display. See Cubase and FLS for that.

Of course, this wouldn't relate to velocity, which is a single value. But to other CCs (which are continuous, INCLUDING pitchbend, channel and poly aftertouch!) most definitely a continuous curve or envelope should be displayed!
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:49 PM   #31
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I don't like interpolated MIDI data. Maybe because I'm an old hog, but really, I do prefer discrete values. I hate to say it for some reason, but I'd like to see CC (and thus the on-note poly-pREAssure) like this:

[IMG]http://img339.**************/img339/9239/ccediting1.jpg[/IMG]

(pic shamelessly stolen from DarkStar's MIDI CC editing request http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=978)
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:51 PM   #32
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Gofer, FL uses interpolated data. :P
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:58 PM   #33
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I never used FL. I thought the events were just prolonged horizontally to the next event? If I have a value 127 at beat 1 and a value 0 at beat 2, 127 would be shown until the event at beat 2. I don't want a magic ramp or curve there if I don't insert the events needed.

If FL doesn't work like that, forget the FL pic .
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:59 PM   #34
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For velocity FL works like Reaper - blocks. For everything else, it's a continuous filled curve. And it's great that way. Although envelope might've been better.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:12 PM   #35
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Not for me, then.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:15 PM   #36
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It's what that CC editing FR is all about - showing continuous curve for CCs. THIS is the best reason for it:

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Old 08-13-2010, 02:46 PM   #37
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Phew That is what I'd like to see. No interpolation involved, as in curves or ramps between events which would imply values which don't exist.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:47 PM   #38
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I'd like to have it optionally.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:51 PM   #39
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Absolutely not against envelope style editing, but I insist on the possibility to switch to reality-check-discrete-event-display (with those prolonged event-bars) at any time during editing.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:29 AM   #40
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Bump for Poly AT in ME!
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