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Old 11-14-2009, 05:03 PM   #1
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Default Entirely (un)dockable UI - discussion

Link to the FR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Every part of Reaper's UI should be undockable and then again dockable to each other freely, depending on user's wishes and wanted workflow. For example, if the user wants Performance meter docked to the left of TCP instead of in the Docker, he should be able to do it.

Currently, there are some parts of Reaper UI that are fixed and aren't going anywhere. This should be changed in the future. Those parts are:

* Track Control Panel
* Main toolbar (currently linked to TCP, but this should definitely change!)
* Arrangement area (Main view)
* Info bar (currently fixed below TCP)
* Transport is currently available docked only to Main view, but this should also definitely change!
* Program toolbar and title bar are also fixed, and all other parts are connected to them (Main view, main toolbar and TCP).

In essence, freely customizable interface.

* MIDI Editor is currently dockable only in Docker. This should change, it should be dockable to any other GUI part/window
* Ditto FX chain window
* Video window isn't dockable in any way currently, this should of course change
* Newly introduced floating toolbars aren't dockable anywhere too, and this is going to be changed, as schwa said in one post

Last edited by EvilDragon; 11-14-2009 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:06 AM   #2
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Well, to enhance workflow I would prefer toggle on/of parts like TCP instead of lots of dockable floating windows.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:23 AM   #3
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Of course you could deactivate the parts you don't need. But in essence, think of it as LEGO. You can use a block, or you don't have to. You can merge several blocks however you like.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:09 AM   #4
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Yes, I understand your points and it might be an improvement. On the other hand, I have the feeling that more floating windows together with the allready overcramped menus are just a good recipe for clutter.

For real workflow improvement probably a well-thought overhaul is advisable? Perhaps then you won't even need dockable windows?
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:05 PM   #5
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No, dockable windows are ALWAYS a plus. You can put everything where YOU think it belongs. Menus can already be sorted out, for the biggest part.

Try to think out of the box on this one - there will be no clutter, only what you need. "Dockable" doesn't mean "introduce clutter".
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:40 PM   #6
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I am thinking out of lots of boxes; including the floating dockable ones...

Anyone joining this dicussion?
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Old 11-15-2009, 03:25 PM   #7
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graphic?
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Old 11-15-2009, 03:26 PM   #8
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Hard to do for me at the moment...

Just imagine you could detach TCP from arrangement view (where all the items are), and place it wherever you see fit.

Or imagine you could detach Performance meter from the Docker and dock it above Transport, or to the right of Transport. Or whatever.

Imagine you could detach the main toolbar from TCP and dock it below the main menu bar (File, Edit, View...)

Stuff like that.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 11-15-2009 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:58 PM   #9
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I strongly agree with this!

If you want an example, check out any recent version of Visual Studio... or any other programming IDE.
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:45 AM   #10
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I have no idea what Frankvg is talking about here
I think he doesn't get the idea at all

How is it even possible to have a slicker design than an interface where people can put anything they want anywhere and that is floating or non floating

????

NAS
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAS View Post
I think he doesn't get the idea at all

How is it even possible to have a slicker design than an interface where people can put anything they want anywhere and that is floating or non floating ????
You have to understand I come from Tracktion where there is only one window and there is simply no need to move all sorts of floating windows around (although you can toggle on/off lots of items such as browser or properties panel) because it functions in a logical way workflow-wise.

So I do understand and really appreciate the idea of 'putting everything where you want it' but on the other hand could argue that with a more logical and functional gui to start with, perhaps there would be less necessity to....
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:10 AM   #12
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I'm with Frankvg. having the user put anything anywhere is not a "slick design" - it is no design at all. Elements need to fit in their spaces and be accessible - their contents need to be scaled to make sense in the situation they are displayed in. If elements may find themselves vertical or horizontal then designers can't make a sensible layout of their contents.

Tracktion was a model of design - things appeared in expected places and went away when not needed - one was able to work effectively in quite a small space without switching windows etc. Live is also nice. REAPER does not have a great UI design as of now - but having to accommodate "everything must go everywhere" would be a step in the wrong direction.
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:21 AM   #13
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Are you saying that Word 2003 (for example) doesn't have effective solved toolbars? All are dockable exactly where you want it and there are no restrictions which ones should go where.

This is what my intention was. The most obvious one is main toolbar linked and unseparatable from TCP. This HAS to be changed. Then the info bar should be also undockable and freely assignable location-wise. Etc.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:10 AM   #14
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the main toolbar was set up to include a bunch of visual feedback that you absolutely need to get when working in the TCP - I'm thinking of ripple state, lock, Envelope following, X-fade. Other buttons that don't communicate don't need to be there sure - but its elegant for a given window to tell you what you need to know about its contents - you don't need to know the ripple state when looking at the mixer or FX window etc.

So having that corner of the TCP for "buttons which indicate" is not so bad. Might there be a better place to put it? maybe. Might there be a better use for that space? maybe a dedicated master fader or something? sure, could be. Are there other indicating buttons that might be useful to have there (loop state record state maybe) sure. Do I want to have to spend a lot of time solving these design issues on my system. No thanks.

re Word - actually I really don't like it. That said, its a much simpler task - text flows - doesn't need horizontal and vertical zooming - routing and levels don't need visualizing - running plugs are not being hosted - littering it with baffling little buttons doesn't totally screw up the experience I suppose. DAW's of course are another matter - much more tweaking takes place imo and design is more important.

REAPER is already a little clumsy and crowded - cleaning and refining needs to happen rather than exponentially increasing visual complexity.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:34 AM   #15
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I think the fact that you don't want this or that , and somebody else wants this or that
Kind of proves the entire point of this FR doesn't it hahahaha

So you saying you don't like the idea beacuse the UI should be layed out this or that way kind of reinforces the fact that it is needed

NAS

PS by the way i came from Tracktion aswell but dissed it as soon as Mackie got hold of it (That one was so frikkin obvious what was gonna happen)
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:43 PM   #16
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+1
Anyone who doubts the usefulness of this should check out Adobe Audition.
It would also resolve wasted space in the docker.
To not get messy, it would require some sort of "locking" mode once you've set things up the way you like, otherwise all the handles can get in the way.
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAS View Post

So you saying you don't like the idea beacuse the UI should be layed out this or that way kind of reinforces the fact that it is needed

NAS
Great point, NAS.

I like the idea. If fact I miss this feature.

Voted.




-Data
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:16 PM   #18
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This would be incredibly useful! I miss this from my Audition days.

You have my vote, sir!
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
No, dockable windows are ALWAYS a plus. You can put everything where YOU think it belongs. Menus can already be sorted out, for the biggest part.

Try to think out of the box on this one - there will be no clutter, only what you need. "Dockable" doesn't mean "introduce clutter".
TOTALLY AGREE!!!
The more you can shape the interface to your own workflow the better.

I also think you should be able to create your own toolbars (apart from the main one) with your own custom actions and dock them where you want to as well.
Because sometimes you end up having to memorize too many keystrokes...this can be a problem when you are using several apps...you sometimes accidentally hit the keystrokes that are meant for another app.

Another cool thing would be a simple keystroke that brings a copy of the main toolbar to the mouse cursor for real speed of workflow,then you have twenty or so actions selectable right there at the mouse cursor.
Plus if you could create a couple more custom toolbars (dockable anywhere)...all you need to do is remember 2 or 3 keystrokes to also bring those to the cursor and you have instant access to a wide range of actions.
Apart from the ones you already have assigned to keystrokes.
IMHO this would reduce the need for even looking at the menus and nested menus.
Cheers
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post

I also think you should be able to create your own toolbars (apart from the main one) with your own custom actions and dock them where you want to as well.
In version 3.141 they are there; 4 of them, although not dockable right now. I've already set up some things for item- and envelope-manipulation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post
Because sometimes you end up having to memorize too many keystrokes...this can be a problem when you are using several apps...you sometimes accidentally hit the keystrokes that are meant for another app.
To me this can't be a problem - it is a problem, hence don't use them very often. I'm happy, if I can remember the spacebar to start and stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post
Another cool thing would be a simple keystroke that brings a copy of the main toolbar to the mouse cursor for real speed of workflow,then you have twenty or so actions selectable right there at the mouse cursor.
Plus if you could create a couple more custom toolbars (dockable anywhere)...all you need to do is remember 2 or 3 keystrokes to also bring those to the cursor and you have instant access to a wide range of actions.
Apart from the ones you already have assigned to keystrokes.
IMHO this would reduce the need for even looking at the menus and nested menus.
Cheers
I'd rather go for making it possible - now, that the menus are configurable that nicely - to have icons instead of plain text in the (or as) context menus, so if you right-click, you have the toolbar right where you need it. Seems to me to be just a little step from what is possible right now.




-Data
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo View Post
I strongly agree with this!

If you want an example, check out any recent version of Visual Studio... or any other programming IDE.
If that dockable would have the auto hide/auto open as in VC
and
If they could be undockable of course

it's an idea I've asked for, a long long time ago.<-Click.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:24 AM   #22
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Other related thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=41269, interesting discussions/ideas...
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
I'd rather go for making it possible - now, that the menus are configurable that nicely - to have icons instead of plain text in the (or as) context menus, so if you right-click, you have the toolbar right where you need it. Seems to me to be just a little step from what is possible right now.




-Data
I prefer Astro's line of thought. I wouldn't want to sacrifice my cool full blown context menus, but would kill for toolbars to appear at the mousecursor. The "toolbar at mousecursor" would be the place for 4 to six main weapons each here.
For example in the arrange pane I'd like to open a toolbar with actions that make sense to be armed to the mousebutton.
I'd really like to use that "arm an action" feature, but travelling to the toolbar each time (also to unarm the action again? Is there a better way that I miss?) is taking the fun out of that idea for me. Toolbars @ mousecursor could make that feature shine.
And if Reaper could open them context sensitive (give me a different toolbar on the ruler than over an item) without me memorizing different shortcuts for them, I'd cry some happy tears .
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
(also to unarm the action again? Is there a better way that I miss?)
Pressing Esc after arming a toolbar button unarms the button
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
In version 3.141 they are there; 4 of them, although not dockable right now. I've already set up some things for item- and envelope-manipulation.
-Data
Yes WOW!! I love them...what a great addition...I downloaded the new version after I made that last post.
I love it!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
To me this can't be a problem - it is a problem, hence don't use them very often. I'm happy, if I can remember the spacebar to start and stop.
-Data
Ha ha yeah true...I end up hitting keystrokes that are for 3d apps and think "why the F&&%%" doesn't this thing render? LOL!!
Anyway most of my reaper keystrokes are now the same as Logic...so I have had a few years to remember those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
I'd rather go for making it possible - now, that the menus are configurable that nicely - to have icons instead of plain text in the (or as) context menus, so if you right-click, you have the toolbar right where you need it. Seems to me to be just a little step from what is possible right now.
-Data
I think this is good...but some people have their right click menus set up how they like, and therefore a small command (like esc in Logic) is all you need to have instant access to the floating tabbed bar...again I have to say its really really encouraging to see that new tabbed toolbar in the latest version...fantastic!!
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post


Ha ha yeah true...I end up hitting keystrokes that are for 3d apps and think "why the F&&%%" doesn't this thing render? LOL!!
Anyway most of my reaper keystrokes are now the same as Logic...so I have had a few years to remember those.
It's especially annoying, if these programs don't allow to change the shortcuts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post
I think this is good...but some people have their right click menus set up how they like, and therefore a small command (like esc in Logic) is all you need to have instant access to the floating tabbed bar...again I have to say its really really encouraging to see that new tabbed toolbar in the latest version...fantastic!!
Well, I think I used the wrong words in saying "I'd rather go...".

I like all these ideas.

I also like the "arm"-function of the toolbar, it works like a charm. In knowing how to deactivate it EvilDragon was one step ahead again.





-Data
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:18 PM   #27
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owwww yessss

+1
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:30 PM   #28
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+1

sometimes i don't need the tcp, and i could use more horizontal space for items.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:21 AM   #29
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yesss! +1

if i could for instance undock the stupid 'mixer' SINGLE menu item from the mixer and the close it forever... its a single totally unneccesary redundant menu that takes up a whole 5mm row across the top of the mixer... (get rid of that thing).

transport however, is undockable. (right click, uncheck 'dock transport in main window'.
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Old 12-09-2009, 07:25 PM   #30
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+1000

This would be great. I hate being restricted in software by GUI's that don't work the way I want them too.

Custom actions, menus & toolbars are already implemented. Dockable/redockable/lockable GUI sections is the final step towards a completely customisable workspace, especially when combined with custom themes.

------------------------------------

Toolbar @ mouse cursor action is a great idea. How would one set it up?

Pat
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:41 AM   #31
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May I make one of my earliest posts a +1 for this? If nothing else, I'd also like to be able to toggle the TCP on and off to get more horizontal room. Speaking of toggling - I'm not a shortcuts "power user" - I like the toggle-in-docker button on the Midi window. I'd like that on ALL dockable windows - at least on the mixer.

Personally, I don't see the point of being against total dockerizarion of all parts - surely it's a feature you can just ignore if you're you're happy with any default layout!
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:12 AM   #32
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I also want to dock floating windows to each other
[IMG]http://img6.**************/img6/8210/dockingexample.th.png[/IMG]
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much appreciated.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:36 PM   #33
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From Issue Tracker:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffos
Voted yes on the assumption we're talking about removing the docker and replace it with "docking" as it is known in the GUI glossary. One important aspect of docking that has not been mentioned here are "tabs", this would be very usefull in REPAER's context (e.g. the user would be able to create tabs of MIDI editors, tabs of FXs, etc..).

(Existing) docking framework example:
- been able to dock (place) any window anywhere via drag'n'drop on another view's border (a *very* small handle is needed for the drag, btw)
- been able to undock views, recursively (unattach a view as an independent window, where other views form the parent/child windows can be drag'n'droped)
- been able to create "tabs" via drag'n'drop of a view in another one
- been able to change the tabs order via drag'n'drop of a tabs
- been able to unattach "tabs" via drag'n'drop of a tab to .. somewhere else
- been able to close, minimize, maximize any view (buttons are needed, like the windows ones but for reaper's views and smaller!)
- almost like the current "screen sets": been able to load/save a layout (opened views/windows with positions, max, min.. states) + related actions
-etc..
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:42 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffos
- been able to create "tabs" via drag'n'drop of a view in another one
This would work like in Photoshop CS! Very good and welcome idea!
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Old 02-03-2010, 06:27 PM   #35
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Quote:

to have icons instead of plain text in the (or as) context menus, so if you right-click, you have the toolbar right where you need it. Seems to me to be just a little step from what is possible right now.

-Data
I would like that too.

Vote for my FR : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=50586

DanXIV
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Old 02-03-2010, 06:30 PM   #36
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Yes yes yes
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:15 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
From Issue Tracker:
ok, sorry 'bout that.. I understand there's of course more important stuff..
(ha ha! I'm sorry but since I discovered the API and since v3.22, I have no more -real- issues/FRs. Apart from the JS performance FR, I have to end with cosmetic ones or "nice to have" comments what a shame! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
This would work like in Photoshop CS! Very good and welcome idea!
Glad you like it, ED!
Yes, I think this is an important feature of "docking" (as I know it). Perharps it worths a very slight edit of the FR ?
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Old 02-04-2010, 07:32 AM   #38
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Didn't read the whole thread, but yeah definitely agree with the FR.

And if I may add:

1) Hide-able (folded) panels. (e.g. like in newer Photoshop CS)
2) Re-arrangeable components (e.g. transport bar controls)
3) Snappy UI redraws consistently (e.g. currently the mixer redraws and flickers on certain operations)
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:32 PM   #39
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it could be nice to attach plugins and move them as one object to my other screen and keep their alignment instead of moving them 1 by 1...

[img]http://img22.**************/img22/6615/attachd.png[/img]
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:38 PM   #40
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bump!
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.
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