Old 05-19-2010, 03:02 AM   #1
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Default Consolidated timeline FRs

Below are some of my suggestions regarding the timeline. I am coming from a musician/composer standpoint, and hopefully the suggestions below will appeal to you too if you are one. Please vote in the tracker for the features you find useful (there are several FRs to vote, not just one, and the list may expand over time). And do comment with your own suggestions. Thanks!



(1) Grid numbering sub-optimal for compositional use.



Reaper timeline format: xx.1.00 at all times, independent of zoom level.
Zoomed out view = sparse measure numbering + wasted space.




Different host. Good implementation. All measures are numbered. No redundant digits. No wasted space.

PS. While this has been partially implemented (dropping the extra digits), the numbers still behave as if they are long (i.e. they hide way too soon when zooming out).

Vote in the tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=169

----------------------------------------------------------------



(2) Make beginning of measures (more) obvious.

A side-effect to the previous issue: measures and beats all look the same numerically, more clarity needed.



Reaper timeline: measures and beats numbering is the same. No strong visual indication of the beginning of measures.



Another host: The beginning of each measure is clearly marked. Subdivisions are marked in a more subtle way.

Another example...
Reaper 3 MIDI Editor grid lines VS suggested thicker grid lines for beginning of measures:



----------------------------------------------------------------



(3) Auto-adjust timeline height depending on the information shown

The default timeline shows: Measures.Beats(M:S secondary)
This uses 2 rows of numbers (=increased lane height)

When you choose to view only Measures.Beats, the Minutes:Seconds disappear, but not the extra space they occupied.



A solution would be to have multiple independent timelines (switchable).

----------------------------------------------------------------



(4) Fixed grid spacing. Independent of tempo

Currently the grid spacing is affected by the tempo at any given moment. Low tempo, the grid lines stretch apart, high tempo and the grid lines are condensed together.

This has a disadvantage that the grid is changing while moving tempo markers (or the tempo envelope points).
Example: http://screencast.com/t/MGQxNzdlY
Quite confusing.

There can be an alternative mode where the grid spacing is always the same. Instead: it's the playback cursor speed that changes, depending on the current tempo.

Image examples by Banned...
...a measure at 240 BPM would be the same size on the display as a measure at 120 BPM:



For comparison, this is how it currently looks:



(Thanks to miche for the illustrations.)


Suggestion by EricM: I suggest implementing Steinberg's terms: Linear Grid vs. current Linear Time mode.


Vote in the tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2502

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(5) Zoom with click+drag vertically (timeline)

Cubase example: http://screencast.com/t/NzllYzY0
Ableton Live Example (better): http://screencast.com/t/YTczODZlNDkt

Vote in the tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1723

----------------------------------------------------------------



(6) The grid numbering (and the transport) should also have an option to show 'ticks' (as set in preferences), not 100ths of beats. (by Banned)

Vote in the tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4408

----------------------------------------------------------------



(7) The grid should be able to display e.g. samples and (musical) time simultaneously. Why do we have only *one* option to combine two display modes? (by Banned)

----------------------------------------------------------------



(8) Time-based rulers need sensible value displays based on time intervals, not Bars and Beat intervals. (by airon)

I'd like to add an item to this request that deals with what the timeline displays for absolute time.

Reapers timeline is like an analog clock that highlights irregular time intervals instead of regular, and changes what it highlights depending on the zoom, highlighting other irregular times.

Who the fuck wants to know when it's 8:17, 9:11 and 9:52 when zoomed in a certain way, and then 8:11, 9:36 and 9:57 when zoomed in another way.

It was a bad idea to lock the absolute time display to the Bars and Beats grid, and that idea has to fucking die, because it's screwing up the time ruler even when Bars and Beats are not part of the time ruler. It's inferior, it's useless and it has to go.

Time-based rulers need sensible value displays based on time intervals, not Bars and Beat intervals.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Evan; 11-03-2012 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:26 AM   #2
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Transferred from the Tracker:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM
I suggest implementing Steinberg's terms: Linear Grid vs. current Linear Time mode.
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Old 05-21-2010, 03:12 AM   #3
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Evan
Perhaps, you will take something from my offer:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=56901
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:06 AM   #4
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+1: Pics above are rather convincing, i support this req.
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Old 05-22-2010, 11:35 AM   #5
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Yes, good idea. Let us unite, add to your request here(?).
In Ardour:

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:30 AM   #6
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+1 for the fixed grid space
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:54 AM   #7
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+1 for optional fixed-grid.

I disagree with the look stuff. The numbers should be above the tick marks. Just change the font.

It would be cool if the tick marks were colored the same as the Measure/Beat/Sub-Beat lines though.
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues View Post
I disagree with the look stuff. The numbers should be above the tick marks. Just change the font.
That's not what the FR is about. I like the numbers above the tick marks too. Changing the font doesn't make any difference, regarding that FR.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
That's not what the FR is about. I like the numbers above the tick marks too. Changing the font doesn't make any difference, regarding that FR.
Sorry, I thought that part of your solution to clarity was to switch the position of the numbers. Let me be more specific:

1&2)I think cleaner and more obvious measures/beats is definitely a good thing, as long as we don't lose any information. Remember that sometimes, markers do not fall on the beats and you would want to see the most specific info available. Perhaps the easiest way to achieve 1) and 2) would be like you suggested that measures are only #, beats #.#, and more specific divisions #.#.#?

3)The auto-adjust based on the information shown is a good idea, but the problem, I think, is that people use different fonts up there, and Reaper's current gui doesn't seem to be able to respond that way. It is a good idea, but I (personally) don't see this as essential. But then, I always have a second measurement for hours:minutes, so my ruler is always filled.

4)Fixed-Width is great during certain activities. A toggle will be awesome.

5)This zoom gets in the way of loop-making and would be hit accidentally when redirecting the play cursor. That's why it can't work as presented. But then, you do have a scroll mouse, right? If you set (in preferences) horizontal scroll to focus on the mouse cursor, you get the same exact effect as you see in the video.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post

(1) Grid numbering sub-optimal for compositional use.



Reaper timeline format: xx.1.00 at all times, independent of zoom level.
Zoomed out view = sparse measure numbering + wasted space.




Different host. Good implementation. All measures are numbered. No redundant digits. No wasted space.

Vote in the tracker: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=169




(2) Make beginning of measures more obvious.

A side-effect to the previous issue: measures and beats all look the same numerically, more clarity needed.



Reaper timeline: measures and beats numbering is the same. No strong visual indication of the beginning of measures.



Another host: The beginning of each measure is clearly marked. Subdivisions are marked in a more subtle way.
super agree.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:01 AM   #11
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Thank you for the detailed comments Mike.

The timeline needs to be flexible, because it means different things to different people.

For traditional composition, Measures is everything. Minutes:seconds are a distraction.
For mixing/mastering, Minutes:seconds can be very important.
And you need other types of metering for video work. And so on.



I am asking for flexibility and not compromise.

For points (1) and (2), I am looking for a mode that shows grid values (measures:beats) dependent on the zoom level. If you're zoomed out and each grid line = start of measure, there's not point having all these 'xx.1.00' digits, just 'xx' will do. If you zoom in, more digits can appear as they become relevant. These specific suggestions are coming from a composer's perspective.

What are the goals?
- Find measures easily. "I want to see measure 56, oh wait, there's measure 53 showing and then it's 64. I guess I'll count the inbetween bars myself."
- Each measure being a distinct entity, not just another grid line. Measure starts are more dominant than sub-divisions. There's a hierarchy. Like there's in music theory. Like counting 4/4... it's ΟΝΕ, two, three, four.



Regarding the zoom feature (5)

There are many ways to make it work. You're saying that it's not useful for you and I say make it optional. Problem solved. Other than that, I don't understand how it would get in the way like you said. I set the edit/play cursor from the arrangement view. I can set time selection from the timeline by left/right dragging, and that's just one of the multiple ways to set the time selection. In the worst case scenario, the devs set a specific area in the timeline for mouse-drag zooming. I don't get it.

Last edited by Evan; 05-25-2010 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Regarding the zoom feature (5)

There are many ways to make it work. You're saying that it's not useful for you and I say make it optional. Problem solved. Other than that, I don't understand how it would get in the way like you said. I set the edit/play cursor from the arrangement view. I can set time selection from the timeline by left/right dragging, and that's just one of the multiple ways to set the time selection. In the worst case scenario, the devs set a specific area in the timeline for mouse-drag zooming. I don't get it.
This is the only feature that I fully disagreed with, and though one reason is that it gets in the way of using the timeline, the other is that we already have a better feature. Maybe you didn't realize that instead of having to go up to the timeline to do it, just point your mouse at what you want to zoom scroll your mousewheel anywhere (with horizontal zoom set like this)?

[IMG]http://img63.**************/img63/8503/mousezoom.jpg[/IMG]

It's groovy because you don't have to move you mouse away from what you're already doing. Does the drag-timeline method work in much the same way?
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Old 05-29-2010, 09:16 AM   #13
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Mike,

Zooming using the mouse cursor as a vertical center fails miserably for me in many cases. This happens with big zoom changes:

1) Place the cursor at a point over an item
2) mousewheel to zoom in, the item moves far away from the mouse pointer as the arrangement view expands
3) you're at a very wrong place

For me, using the mousewheel to zoom is not comfortable. This is why I often use the scrollbars to zoom in/out. It just doesn't work for me this way.

Timeline zooming is:

- vastly superior for me
- an additional feature, not a replacement for the other methods!

Also: wheel does not beat the speed+accuracy of moving a mouse. Much higher resolution, much better control. This also includes parameter editing. How often do you drag knobs and sliders with the mouse, versus mousewheeling on them? I know I do the first much more often.
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Old 05-30-2010, 06:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Mike,

Zooming using the mouse cursor as a vertical center fails miserably for me in many cases. This happens with big zoom changes:

1) Place the cursor at a point over an item
2) mousewheel to zoom in, the item moves far away from the mouse pointer as the arrangement view expands
3) you're at a very wrong place

For me, using the mousewheel to zoom is not comfortable. This is why I often use the scrollbars to zoom in/out. It just doesn't work for me this way.

Timeline zooming is:

- vastly superior for me
- an additional feature, not a replacement for the other methods!

Also: wheel does not beat the speed+accuracy of moving a mouse. Much higher resolution, much better control. This also includes parameter editing. How often do you drag knobs and sliders with the mouse, versus mousewheeling on them? I know I do the first much more often.
I see your point. In the vein of additional features, you gave me an idea.

Currently, when you drag the middle mouse button, it scrolls around the view on both the X- and Y-axis. What if with an alt+drag, it zoomed instead? So up-down was just like the timeline scroll and left-right zooms the tracks. You can customize the middle mouse button actions, so you could even switch which is the default.

I make this suggestion because I acknowledge the usefulness of your FR, but I think in order for it to be useful to enough people, it couldn't be in the same place where loop points, markers, time signatures, and regions already are.
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:12 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues View Post
I make this suggestion because I acknowledge the usefulness of your FR, but I think in order for it to be useful to enough people, it couldn't be in the same place where loop points, markers, time signatures, and regions already are.
I agree. It could be done with a modifier like CTRL+Click on the timeline or whatever is available. The timeline has enough vertical space to be split in half, one half allowing mouse zoom with a simple left-click. Optionally if you prefer. And a change in the mouse pointer would make it easy to see what you're doing.

I don't like the middle mouse button (mousewheel button) either. Also, laptop trackpads don't have a middle button. I was planning to post another FR to allow binding the hand-scroll to a modifier (currently middle-button+drag in arrangement view).

I just did a quick example in Ableton Live.
I don't use or know Ableton, but this is very fast workflow: http://screencast.com/t/YTczODZlNDkt

Last edited by Evan; 05-31-2010 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
I don't like the middle mouse button (mousewheel button) either. Also, laptop trackpads don't have a middle button.
Sure they do. You can use one finger to click both buttons and it acts as a middle click. You'd be hard pressed to find a trackpad that doesn't have that feature enabled or that you can't enable from the settings.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues View Post
Sure they do. You can use one finger to click both buttons and it acts as a middle click.
That's the 2nd big thing I've learned in a day. Thank you!

(and it actually works on my laptop)
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
That's the 2nd big thing I've learned in a day. Thank you!

(and it actually works on my laptop)
Cool. It took me ages myself.

And for the record, I think timeline drag is a good option. I just worry that with limited developer time, they can't implement everything here, only the stuff that makes the most sense.
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Old 08-07-2010, 12:45 PM   #19
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+++1 more musical...
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:07 AM   #20
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bump...
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Old 08-25-2010, 08:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
bump...
Bump + actual grid lines other than only bars and beats.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:58 PM   #22
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bumpeeee... addition of FR for 'thicker grid lines for beginning of measures' in the original post (see point 2)
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:30 AM   #23
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bump for some votes?
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:52 PM   #24
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Would you be so kind to add the "Grid Edit Mode" to the consolidated FRs ?

In the GEM, you move grid lines (instead of items).

Snapping -> lines snap to items' start or end points.

You can also automatically "groove quantize" the lines (using selection to extract the groove pattern from midi or audio), so anything you move to that area is automatically and non-destructively adjusted/timestretched to fit that groove.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:44 AM   #25
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Bump. These are good FRs.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:27 AM   #26
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+1 on all of them.

+ The grid numbering (and the transport) should also have an option to show 'ticks' (as set in preferences), not 100ths of beats. [EDIT: added FR in the tracker, please vote! ]

+ The grid should be able to display e.g. samples and (musical) time simultaneously. Why do we have only *one* option to combine two display modes?
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:22 PM   #27
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I would also prefer dashes or a slashes (instead of dots) to better differentiate musical scale from time scale.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:19 PM   #28
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[Copied from this (accidental) duplicate FR, describing exactly the same FR as this one in different terms, perhaps making it easier to find:]

As has been extensively discussed in the v4.23pre9 - May 9 2012 pre-release thread, there should be an option to make the timeline use musical time instead of absolute time. This would mean that measures, beats etc. would be shown at the same (horizontal) size (in pixels), regardless of tempo changes, and that adjusting the project tempo would *not* cause resizing/(un)zooming. (The latter makes this a graphics optimisation as well as a new feature.)

For example, a measure at 240 BPM would be the same size on the display as a measure at 120 BPM:



For comparison, this is how it currently looks:



(Thanks to miche for the illustrations.)
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebas777 View Post
Would you be so kind to add the "Grid Edit Mode" to the consolidated FRs ?
I can't believe I missed this... sorry Sebas!

Could you give more information, or better, an issue tracker link so I can refer to? Thanks.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:01 PM   #30
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Bump. Number 1 is one of my biggest niggles.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:17 AM   #31
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I'd like to add an item to this request that deals with what the timeline displays for absolute time.
Reapers timeline is like an analog clock that highlights irregular time intervals instead of regular, and changes what it highlights depending on the zoom, highlighting other irregular times.
Who the fuck wants to know when it's 8:17, 9:11 and 9:52 when zoomed in a certain way, and then 8:11, 9:36 and 9:57 when zoomed in another way.

It was a bad idea to lock the absolute time display to the Bars and Beats grid, and that idea has to fucking die, because it's screwing up the time ruler even when Bars and Beats are not part of the time ruler. It's inferior, it's useless and it has to go.

Time-based rulers need sensible value displays based on time intervals, not Bars and Beat intervals.

Thank you.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:07 AM   #32
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done airon, and thanks (ps it may help if there was an issue tracker entry?)
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:21 AM   #33
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Bumping from
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=148184
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Old 01-16-2015, 06:47 PM   #34
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Damn it, I bumped this already? Bumping again hoping maybe it's not too complicated an edition for v5, while Justin is on the case with tempo issues.
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Old 01-16-2015, 08:45 PM   #35
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A lot of this is already in the pre-releases of v5, which anyone can verify and test in the Pre-Release forum section.

I thought anyone interested in this subject would appreciate some good news .
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:11 PM   #36
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By far the biggest thing for me is there needs to be consistency between the main timeline and the MIDI editor timeline (which is more advanced).

Swing support is BADLY needed and audio item quantize should closer in functionality to MIDI quantize (i.e. "strength" setting for more natural sounding time correction).
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Old 01-16-2015, 10:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
By far the biggest thing for me is there needs to be consistency between the main timeline and the MIDI editor timeline (which is more advanced).
Ya, it seems like a fundamental, but there's a really blasé attitude about it for some reason. Not just the devs but few really give a shit. Not sure why.

Seriously though, what's the point of having a universally misunderstood feature like "timebase" if it's not even going to work correctly?? People barely understand the concept as it is and cockos gives us an incomplete mindfuck interpretation where it only works right half the time.

An obvious solution (to me) is to create a high resolution third timeline which coordinates the current timelines.
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