Old 07-27-2021, 02:58 AM   #1
Geoff Waddington
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Default New EuCon project

[Edit] Here's the link -- https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42522/EuCon%20Exp.zip


CSI and EuCon don't really get along that well, to be honest

I finally realized it's because EuCon is itself a control system integrator.

It's like trying to bolt 2 suns together

We will now carve the EuCon support out of CSI and make it standalone.

We will also make it much more EuCon like, true to the EuCon design intent.

Mostly that means less customization/flexibilty than CSI, but more consistency.

EuCon and CSI can be run simultaneously in Reaper, so the 2 systems can be used together.

Really looking forward to any and all ideas, bring it on folks !
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:42 AM   #2
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This all sounds good to me. I'm hoping that this can be faster than the old-school Eucon beta, and can also include some kind of FX mapping support for folks who truly want the Eucon-like experience there on Reaper. For my own use-cases, CSI is handling the FX mapping though so that's not a high priority.

Definitely looking forward to seeing when you're cooking up for Eucon.
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Old 07-27-2021, 05:34 PM   #3
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Thinking about file structure.

Propose we follow the CSI lead and have a EuCon folder with a EuCon.ini and an FX folder for FX maps (aka Zones) -- I think modern EuCon has improved a lot in the FX mapping department.

We will build a GUI later but until we figure out what the GUI should look like, let's just use the .ini file for experimentation.

Thinking it should contain:

Max number of Channels

Max number of Sends

Max number of FX

Anything else ?
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:27 PM   #4
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The above sounds perfectly reasonable for me. Will the FX.zon syntax look like the CSI-Eucon syntax or something different altogether?
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:29 PM   #5
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Glad you haven't given up on Eucon just yet Geoff! I was pleasantly surprised when Eucon became part of CSI, but started losing interest when it became clear that Eucon and CSI were probably not gonna mesh well with each other. Looking forward to seeing what you can do with Eucon as a standalone project again, though keeping my expectations tempered as I realize the user base for this does not run too deep.


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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Really looking forward to any and all ideas, bring it on folks !
To me the biggest things Eucon has over most MIDI/OSC surfaces are the high amount of visual feedback it can give (this is much more apparent if you're using the newer surfaces and/or the tablet app) and the navigation/organization features(layouts, VCA/Folder Spill, the tracks navigator in the app). Once the fundemental stuff like volume, pan, sends, and fx are working, it'd be great to take a look at getting some of these more "advanced" eucon features going in Reaper.

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...and can also include some kind of FX mapping support for folks who truly want the Eucon-like experience there on Reaper. For my own use-cases, CSI is handling the FX mapping though so that's not a high priority.
Two things worth noting about fx mapping:
  1. The lastest version of eucon includes fx mapping as a native feature (only took them like 15 years to add this!). It's a little limited in what it can do (no way to alias parameter names for instance, or change the thermometer styles), but I believe this means that if we can just have eucon read a list of plugin parameters from Reaper, we'll be able to map them from within the eucon app without any extra work on Geoff's part. I actually just tested and can confirm that eucon's new mapping feature works with the old eucon beta in reaper.
  2. Geoff's original eucon plugin from way back when included an fx mapping tool, that despite having a not so friendly ui, worked really well and was very powerful. Frankly it blows Avid's implementation out of the water as it allows you to do a lot of stuff that's not currently possible with the native eucon mapping tool. Hoping that old mapping tool can make it back into this new eucon project.
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:32 PM   #6
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Thinking about file structure.

Propose we follow the CSI lead and have a EuCon folder with a EuCon.ini and an FX folder for FX maps (aka Zones) -- I think modern EuCon has improved a lot in the FX mapping department.

We will build a GUI later but until we figure out what the GUI should look like, let's just use the .ini file for experimentation.

Thinking it should contain:

Max number of Channels

Max number of Sends

Max number of FX

Anything else ?
Will this be able to handle changing channel counts for metering purposes? From what I've been able to glean using the old Beta and the CSI eucon, it seems like changing channel counts requires eucon to reload the track, which I know you're trying to avoid with this approach
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:48 PM   #7
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The above sounds perfectly reasonable for me. Will the FX.zon syntax look like the CSI-Eucon syntax or something different altogether?
No idea at this point
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by RobinGShore View Post
Glad you haven't given up on Eucon just yet Geoff! I was pleasantly surprised when Eucon became part of CSI, but started losing interest when it became clear that Eucon and CSI were probably not gonna mesh well with each other. Looking forward to seeing what you can do with Eucon as a standalone project again, though keeping my expectations tempered as I realize the user base for this does not run too deep.


To me the biggest things Eucon has over most MIDI/OSC surfaces are the high amount of visual feedback it can give (this is much more apparent if you're using the newer surfaces and/or the tablet app) and the navigation/organization features(layouts, VCA/Folder Spill, the tracks navigator in the app). Once the fundemental stuff like volume, pan, sends, and fx are working, it'd be great to take a look at getting some of these more "advanced" eucon features going in Reaper.
Yeah, that's what got me thinking, mea culpa, hadn't been keeping up with EuCon developments, they have really added a lot we can leverage

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Originally Posted by RobinGShore View Post
Two things worth noting about fx mapping:
  1. The lastest version of eucon includes fx mapping as a native feature (only took them like 15 years to add this!). It's a little limited in what it can do (no way to alias parameter names for instance, or change the thermometer styles), but I believe this means that if we can just have eucon read a list of plugin parameters from Reaper, we'll be able to map them from within the eucon app without any extra work on Geoff's part. I actually just tested and can confirm that eucon's new mapping feature works with the old eucon beta in reaper.
  2. Geoff's original eucon plugin from way back when included an fx mapping tool, that despite having a not so friendly ui, worked really well and was very powerful. Frankly it blows Avid's implementation out of the water as it allows you to do a lot of stuff that's not currently possible with the native eucon mapping tool. Hoping that old mapping tool can make it back into this new eucon project.
Cool don't have clue where mapping will end up, but we'll do the best we can
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Old 07-27-2021, 06:52 PM   #9
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Will this be able to handle changing channel counts for metering purposes? From what I've been able to glean using the old Beta and the CSI eucon, it seems like changing channel counts requires eucon to reload the track, which I know you're trying to avoid with this approach
Don't know, will have to see.
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Old 07-29-2021, 03:13 AM   #10
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New build is up.

EuCon Exp.zip

VERY preliminary first cut of standalone EuCon support, make SURE you install the EuCon folder too, it's the same drill as CSI.
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Old 07-29-2021, 07:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
New build is up.

EuCon Exp.zip

VERY preliminary first cut of standalone EuCon support, make SURE you install the EuCon folder too, it's the same drill as CSI.
I won't be able to extensively test until much later but it passed the 3 minute test. Got it installed and setup with no issues. Loaded two projects. They all worked (16 channels will need to be updated in the .ini later). Deleted and added a track. Performance was acceptable. Flipped faders, that worked. So far so good!

Thanks!
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:26 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
I won't be able to extensively test until much later but it passed the 3 minute test. Got it installed and setup with no issues. Loaded two projects. They all worked (16 channels will need to be updated in the .ini later). Deleted and added a track. Performance was acceptable. Flipped faders, that worked. So far so good!

Thanks!
Great to hear, thanks !!

Probably obvious, but the params in the .ini file are:

NumChannels
NumSends
NumFXSlots
FollowMCP - 1 or 0
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Great to hear, thanks !!

Probably obvious, but the params in the .ini file are:

NumChannels
NumSends
NumFXSlots
FollowMCP - 1 or 0
Number of channels being the number of channels on the physical surface (like CSI for MCU)? Or the maximum number of channels we want to have in our Eucon projects (like how CSI handled Eucon)? I'm assuming the latter, so I'd pick 48 or 64, even though I only have an 8 channel Artist Mix.
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Old 07-29-2021, 10:09 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
Number of channels being the number of channels on the physical surface (like CSI for MCU)? Or the maximum number of channels we want to have in our Eucon projects (like how CSI handled Eucon)? I'm assuming the latter, so I'd pick 48 or 64, even though I only have an 8 channel Artist Mix.
Yup, and watch the load times rise as you increase the Channel count.

That's exactly the same as insert/delete in the old beta, both a symptom of the same thing, I'll be working on that next
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Old 07-29-2021, 02:35 PM   #15
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New build is up.

EuCon Exp.zip

Vastly improved load time with higher Channel counts.

Within CSI we could never build a EuCon surface larger than about 500 Tracks, and it took 10's of minutes not seconds.

Just now built a EuCon surface with 2000 Channels -- took about a minute
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Old 07-29-2021, 04:13 PM   #16
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I don't run huge projects but just loaded up a 41 channel project and it seems very snappy indeed.

Question: is it actually using the .zon file. Plugin control didn't seem to pick up my UAD LA-2A Silver, but then again, I'm probably putting the cart before the horse.
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Old 07-29-2021, 05:24 PM   #17
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Did get a crash to desktop after a while. Was looping the project and adjusting the mix. The Windows event viewer is pointing to the Bonjour Service and Eucon. Not sure if any of this is helpful but it was the only type of log information I could find on the crash.

There were a bunch more identical messages for each of these types.
Code:
Bad service type in ._EuDOF-DESKTOPMV3J562._tcp.local. Application protocol name must be underscore plus 1-15 characters. See <http://www.dns-sd.org/ServiceTypes.html>

Bad service type in EUCON_Node_Observer 2C-24-D7-64-00-00._EuDOF-DESKTOPMV3J562._tcp.local. Application protocol name must be underscore plus 1-15 characters. See <http://www.dns-sd.org/ServiceTypes.html>

Bad service type in EUCON_Node_Browser 2C-24-D7-64-00-00 148960._EuDOF-DESKTOPMV3J562._tcp.local. Application protocol name must be underscore plus 1-15 characters. See <http://www.dns-sd.org/ServiceTypes.html>
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Old 07-29-2021, 05:39 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
I don't run huge projects but just loaded up a 41 channel project and it seems very snappy indeed.

Question: is it actually using the .zon file. Plugin control didn't seem to pick up my UAD LA-2A Silver, but then again, I'm probably putting the cart before the horse.
Cool, yeah, anything that works beyond the basics is bound to be sketchy
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Old 07-29-2021, 05:40 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
Did get a crash to desktop after a while. Was looping the project and adjusting the mix. The Windows event viewer is pointing to the Bonjour Service and Eucon. Not sure if any of this is helpful but it was the only type of log information I could find on the crash.

There were a bunch more identical messages for each of these types.
Code:
Bad service type in ._EuDOF-DESKTOPMV3J562._tcp.local. Application protocol name must be underscore plus 1-15 characters. See <http://www.dns-sd.org/ServiceTypes.html>

Bad service type in EUCON_Node_Observer 2C-24-D7-64-00-00._EuDOF-DESKTOPMV3J562._tcp.local. Application protocol name must be underscore plus 1-15 characters. See <http://www.dns-sd.org/ServiceTypes.html>

Bad service type in EUCON_Node_Browser 2C-24-D7-64-00-00 148960._EuDOF-DESKTOPMV3J562._tcp.local. Application protocol name must be underscore plus 1-15 characters. See <http://www.dns-sd.org/ServiceTypes.html>
The aforementioned sketchiness

Would not worry about any of that yet, just glad it loads in Windows
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Old 07-29-2021, 05:46 PM   #20
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OK, so we basically ripped the EuCon code from CSI and plunked it into the native EuCon plugin, so it still has all of the Zones, etc., for now -- it was just the quickest, cheapest(time wise), way.

Wondering if the new EuCon should have any Zones aside from FX Zones -- at least from a user perspective ?

I think, in order to be true to EuCon guidelines/principles, most everything should be hardwired, with the exception of FX Zones.

Makes sense ?

Any/all thoughts/suggestions more than welcomed.
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Old 07-29-2021, 06:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
OK, so we basically ripped the EuCon code from CSI and plunked it into the native EuCon plugin, so it still has all of the Zones, etc., for now -- it was just the quickest, cheapest(time wise), way.

Wondering if the new EuCon should have any Zones aside from FX Zones -- at least from a user perspective ?

I think, in order to be true to EuCon guidelines/principles, most everything should be hardwired, with the exception of FX Zones.

Makes sense ?

Any/all thoughts/suggestions more than welcomed.
Will it be possible to integrate VCA Spill by hardwiring it in versus the zone approach?
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Old 07-29-2021, 07:00 PM   #22
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Will it be possible to integrate VCA Spill by hardwiring it in versus the zone approach?
Not sure yet which way is better, will be reading EuCon docs for a bit here, catching up on the more modern EuCon stuff, like the Control App.
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Old 07-29-2021, 08:53 PM   #23
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Just took it for a test drive. Stuff that seems to be working well already
  • Volume
  • Pan
  • Solo
  • Mute
  • Track Names
  • Track Selection
  • Automation Mode Switching and display
  • Soft Key Assignments

Things I would consider to be part of "the basics" that are not currently working:
  • Sends
  • Meters
  • FX

Quote:
Wondering if the new EuCon should have any Zones aside from FX Zones -- at least from a user perspective ?

I think, in order to be true to EuCon guidelines/principles, most everything should be hardwired, with the exception of FX Zones.
I never quite wrapped my head around how zones worked in CSI so I don't totally understand what you're asking, but if by hardwired, you mean let Eucon determine how things are laid out, and what the buttons, knobs, and faders do, then I think yes, that would be the right approach. Especially if you want it to be "much more EuCon like, true to the EuCon design intent." as you said in the initial post.

Quote:
Will it be possible to integrate VCA Spill by hardwiring it in versus the zone approach?
Going off of what I just wrote, I think it would be great if Eucon's built in VCA spill feature could be used (i.e hardwiring), so that it would respect all the spill settings in the Eucontrol preferences.
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:00 PM   #24
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Uh-oh, I increased the channel count in the ini to 300, and it makes Reaper really unresponsive. Takes several seconds for Reaper to register a mouse click or keyboard input. Goes back to normal as soon as I turn off Eucon.
Edit: Forgot to mention, I'm using a Mac running Mojave (10.14.6)

Last edited by RobinGShore; 07-29-2021 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Added OS details
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:16 PM   #25
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Uh-oh, I increased the channel count in the ini to 300, and it makes Reaper really unresponsive. Takes several seconds for Reaper to register a mouse click or keyboard input. Goes back to normal as soon as I turn off Eucon.
Were you using the second file posted today? Geoff seems to have gotten much better performance. If you were, you on Windows or Mac?

Also, on that subject, what's your maximum real-world track count going to be around? I'm just making my own music as a hobby and hardly exceed the 30's. But if you're going 100+, you'd be a great for covering the performance aspects of this that I'd probably never touch upon.
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:17 PM   #26
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Not sure yet which way is better, will be reading EuCon docs for a bit here, catching up on the more modern EuCon stuff, like the Control App.
I was probably pushing you to make it less-Eucon-y in CSI, but it being split back out, I think it makes sense to try to stay as close to a true integration as Reaper reasonably allows for.
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
Were you using the second file posted today? Geoff seems to have gotten much better performance.
Yep, I'm using the latest version. To be clear the performance problem wasn't with the time it took Eucon to load like was mentioned in Geoff's earlier post (it loaded very fast, much faster than it ever did in CSI or the old beta), but with Reaper's performance after Eucon was loaded.

Quote:
Also, on that subject, what's your maximum real-world track count going to be around? I'm just making my own music as a hobby and hardly exceed the 30's. But if you're going 100+, you'd be a great for covering the performance aspects of this that I'd probably never touch upon.
I typically use around 200 tracks, though sometimes it can be more.
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Old 07-30-2021, 01:40 AM   #28
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Yep, I'm using the latest version. To be clear the performance problem wasn't with the time it took Eucon to load like was mentioned in Geoff's earlier post (it loaded very fast, much faster than it ever did in CSI or the old beta), but with Reaper's performance after Eucon was loaded.


I typically use around 200 tracks, though sometimes it can be more.
Thank for your test drive report.

Yeah, I didn't expect it to work well, just work, at this point

I agree with you and @Funkybot, this project will be as true to EuCon as possible.

That actually means we have a lot of tricks we can use for performance improvement.

It all has to do with the hardwiring, if we do the opposite of CSI (which likes dumb controllers), and take a smart controller approach, it directly implies that EuCon dictates what CSI_EuCon needs to supply, thus we can hardwire to its spec.

Judging from your 300 Track experience, I think I'll tackle getting great fader and automation response next -- basically redesigning the whole control path using the new hardwired approach.

Once that is functioning smoothly, those lessons will be applied to the rest of the Channel functions, and on from there.
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Old 07-30-2021, 02:43 AM   #29
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I typically use around 200 tracks, though sometimes it can be more.
You might want to chip in on this bug report thread.

On sessions of around 7000+ plugin envelopes, over 8000 items over 15 hours and almost 600.000 envelope points, I get massive 'pauses' for intiating playback. Reaper seems to slog massively past that threshold. I'm not the only one this happens to, but it's probably only a problem for mixing and sound design users.

Please take a look and corroborate the finding if possible.
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Old 07-30-2021, 12:30 PM   #30
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You might want to chip in on this bug report thread.

On sessions of around 7000+ plugin envelopes, over 8000 items over 15 hours and almost 600.000 envelope points, I get massive 'pauses' for intiating playback. Reaper seems to slog massively past that threshold. I'm not the only one this happens to, but it's probably only a problem for mixing and sound design users.

Please take a look and corroborate the finding if possible.
Good to know about, and I've definitely experienced similar in big sessions with lots of automation, but in this case I was using a fresh Reaper session with only a few empty tracks (I increased Eucon's track count to 300 in the eucon ini file, but didn't actually add 300 tracks in Reaper), so this was definitely an issue with Eucon and not the size of the Reaper project.
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Old 07-31-2021, 11:02 AM   #31
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New build is up.

EuCon Exp.zip

Performance with higher Channel counts should be much improved.

Also, there are no "usual suspect" Zone files -- e.g. Home, Buttons, Channel, etc.

Just a space to put whatever we come up with for FX.

This build represents a whole new architecture departure specific to EuCon, only the basics work currently -- Faders, Pan, Mute, Solo, RecArm, Select, Stop, Play, etc.

Hopefully what works is reasonably snappy and stable though
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Old 07-31-2021, 01:49 PM   #32
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New version is working well with higher channel counts. I increased the channel count to 300 in the ini again and I'm not getting any unresponsiveness in Reaper now. I loaded up a project with around 200 tracks and everything loaded into Eucon just fine.

Some stuff that was working in the previous version is now broken (automation, time display), but I know that's to be expected given that you're redoing the whole architecture.

Quote:
only the basics work currently -- Faders, Pan, Mute, Solo, RecArm, Select, Stop, Play, etc.
Of the stuff you said should be working currently, faders, mute, solo, and recarm are all working well. Pan is a little bit broken. Eucon is transmitting pan data to Reaper, but reaper is not sending it back to eucon. So, if I move the eucon pan pot it will change the pan in reaper, but if I adjust the panning from the reaper gui, the pan in eucon doesn't update. Similar thing happening with play and stop. Eucon is sending the transport commands to Reaper, but Reaper is not sending it's transport status back to eucon. If I hit play or stop on eucon, it will make Reaper play/stop, but if I hit play/stop from within Reaper, the transport indicator lights in eucon don't update.
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Old 07-31-2021, 02:27 PM   #33
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On Windows, I'm seeing a few initialization errors:

1. On project load, any tracks with the Reaper fader set to 0.0db will have the Eucon fader at minimum value. Moving the fader in Reaper, or just hiding and re-showing the track in the MCP will bring the fader back to life.

2. Centered pans are similarly not getting picked up on initialization. The pan value in Reaper is dead center, it gets displayed on the surface as hard left until you move it in Reaper.
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Old 07-31-2021, 02:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinGShore View Post
New version is working well with higher channel counts. I increased the channel count to 300 in the ini again and I'm not getting any unresponsiveness in Reaper now. I loaded up a project with around 200 tracks and everything loaded into Eucon just fine.

Some stuff that was working in the previous version is now broken (automation, time display), but I know that's to be expected given that you're redoing the whole architecture.


Of the stuff you said should be working currently, faders, mute, solo, and recarm are all working well. Pan is a little bit broken. Eucon is transmitting pan data to Reaper, but reaper is not sending it back to eucon. So, if I move the eucon pan pot it will change the pan in reaper, but if I adjust the panning from the reaper gui, the pan in eucon doesn't update. Similar thing happening with play and stop. Eucon is sending the transport commands to Reaper, but Reaper is not sending it's transport status back to eucon. If I hit play or stop on eucon, it will make Reaper play/stop, but if I hit play/stop from within Reaper, the transport indicator lights in eucon don't update.
Thanks for testing, yeah, a lot of little things not working, but the new EuCon architecture seems to be the right way to go, will continue to fill in the holes.
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Old 07-31-2021, 02:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
On Windows, I'm seeing a few initialization errors:

1. On project load, any tracks with the Reaper fader set to 0.0db will have the Eucon fader at minimum value. Moving the fader in Reaper, or just hiding and re-showing the track in the MCP will bring the fader back to life.

2. Centered pans are similarly not getting picked up on initialization. The pan value in Reaper is dead center, it gets displayed on the surface as hard left until you move it in Reaper.
Thanks for testing, yeah, that's a bit of cleanup needed due to the new fast loading, will get to it
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Old 07-31-2021, 02:48 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Thanks for testing, yeah, that's a bit of cleanup needed due to the new fast loading, will get to it
I have faith. I recall these similar issues with the older CSI-Eucon builds too. They got fixed.
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Old 08-01-2021, 04:28 AM   #37
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New build is up.

EuCon Exp.zip

Hopefully cleaned up the outstanding issues mentioned, please have a look and report back on what I (inevitably) missed
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Old 08-01-2021, 07:21 AM   #38
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OK, Sends.

Would like to make them as "EuConny" as possible.

Presume PT is the standard, what do they do there ?

Are they like the CSI/EuCon Sends, which use the Page buttons to Navigate from Send1 to Send2, etc. ?
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Old 08-01-2021, 08:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
OK, Sends.

Would like to make them as "EuConny" as possible.

Presume PT is the standard, what do they do there ?

Are they like the CSI/EuCon Sends, which use the Page buttons to Navigate from Send1 to Send2, etc. ?
I'm going to use some CSI terms here, so apologies to anyone following this thread that isn't familiar with CSI. In ProTools there are equivalents for both TrackSendSlot (the default) and SelectedTrackSendNavigator.

This video shows an Artist Mix in Pro Tools. The video is short and well done. Worth a watch. Start around the 2:00 minute mark if you're interested in Sends:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu2s56asC4g&t=291s

If you just hit the Aux button, you're seeing the TrackSendSlot version. First send slot for each track. The page buttons bank the send slots.

If you press both page buttons in Aux mode, it jumps into the SelectedTrackSend version where, using Pro Tools or Cubase, you can even create new send assignments using the Artist mix. You select the slot, then the Artist Mix will display some potential destinations, you select the destination, then press both page buttons to exit and you've even created a send.

The latter is certainly more advanced Eucon functionality though. Probably makes sense to get the basic send implementation working.

Last edited by Funkybot; 08-01-2021 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 08-01-2021, 08:50 AM   #40
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Geoff, might be a good idea to post the direct link to the Stash Page with the new Eucon Exp builds in the first post. I mean, I know where to get it, but I could see folks wondering where it actually is. Plus, it would save me a few clicks, which is the real reason I ask.
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