Old 01-19-2017, 10:23 AM   #41
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Yes but since they are tacked onto the current envelope system, they kinda do.
ok, so you agree with me. cool. (you said "yes" to my statement)
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Old 01-19-2017, 10:25 AM   #42
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Partially agree. It probably won't happen
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Old 01-19-2017, 10:37 AM   #43
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Partially agree. It probably won't happen
uhh, well one easy way to do it is that REAPER assumes there's always an edge point based on the first point and last point. REAPER can just add it behind the scenes.
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Old 01-19-2017, 10:56 AM   #44
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Not that easy. That would mean it'd need some way to denote that in RPP, which likely changes the chunk format, which can break all those nice SWS actions which rely on chunks...

Best not to assume, always to show what's the status of things, IMHO. Especially with fussy things like envelopes.
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:07 AM   #45
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Quote:
automation items to act like items and not need edge points
this is the crux of the issue. i think Arigoth's audio editing analogy works well. this feature would be better if the envelope only existed within the item bounds.

the current implementation is a useful set of Automation editing tools. it's like what i've been doing with dummy midi items for years, just better due to pooling, stretching, etc. i will use it to death, but i will always wish that the envelope was bypassed at the last value within the previous automation item if there is no a-item at play cursor.

use case: using CCs to modulate synthesizer melodies. you come up with a good one and record the necessary CCs in several automation lanes using existing automation entry modes. you encapsulate this automation data into an automation item. then, you move out of that item in the arrange view, and repeat. your CCs still actively control your vsti, because you are outside of the automation item and the envelope is effectively bypassed.

all this is possible already if you're using the midi editor to record the CCs and sending them in turn to the VSTi. but REAPER's automation system -- particularly now, with a-items, is much much better than its CC editing capabilities.
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:44 AM   #46
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When we import automation item, is it possible to add option to stretch automatically him for recover his original proportion in relation with the measure ?

Exemple : If, i save automation item which mesaures 1 measure, if i import this automation item in an another track with an another tempo, i want this automation mesaures one measure


(good behaviour)

and not less or more...


(bad behaviour)

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Old 01-19-2017, 11:49 AM   #47
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Could be an useful option, but not how it should work by default IMHO. Or have a checkbox for default behaviour.
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:40 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
When we import automation item, is it possible to add option to stretch automatically him for recover his original proportion in relation with the measure ?

Exemple : If, i save automation item which mesaures 1 measure, if i import this automation item in an another track with an another tempo, i want this automation mesaures one measure


(good behaviour)

and not less or more...


(bad behaviour)
You can stretch it anyways, can't you? Is it not the same?
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:41 PM   #49
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Yes, i can, but it will take more time than automatic stretch...
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:43 PM   #50
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Hmmm... automation items, the smoothest integration I can think of:

They'll contain information of points inside, not needing to have end points. The points contained will smoothly interpolate with previous and next points where ever they may be. Edges of the items could be adjustable as well as stretchable (mouse modifier). I can picture them acting as fluid as a selection of points currently is (i.e. adjustments of selection region and effecting ponts contained, without creating edge points). Pretty much like selections with the added ability of labeling and saving them.

Shucks, maybe later having stretch markers as well.

I know that it maybe simpler to have edge points created, but not absolutely necessary. The primary bits of data stored, I'm guessing, is the placement and length of the item and the relative positioning of its constituent points (and ther values, of course).

That information alone should be enough for smooth interpolation without end points.


Pretty much, end points could be optional when creating and/or adjusting automation items.
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
When we import automation item, is it possible to add option to stretch automatically him for recover his original proportion in relation with the measure ?

Exemple : If, i save automation item which mesaures 1 measure, if i import this automation item in an another track with an another tempo, i want this automation mesaures one measure


(good behaviour)

and not less or more...


(bad behaviour)

I think that would be a great idea, maybe an item dialog for automation items, like there are for audio items, maybe just context menu options for things like looping and bpm or grid placement (good for grid based scaling and offset position)
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:50 PM   #52
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Automation items, Awesome !
AI should have the flexibility to route everything everywhere, in the typical reaper witchcraft
Some ideas :


A.I. should have their own lane and act as real independant items over the original envelope. Automation Item Lines could be attached to any track (like in visual exemple) or maybe independant
This lane should have any multiple targets in any tracks (fx,vol, pan,etc), for magic sidechaining options or pilot multiples fx parameters.
(in a similar way Send to track could be per AI via item menu)


Targets would appear as ghosts on targeted tracks, with options (icons, actions, mousewheel, what you want) to change the way they mix with the target env.. As we may want these items to interact in different ways for different fxs. The ghost only show the final result.
Options should be plus/substract/replace (or operators I'm too dumb to think ) , a % to apply to original target envelope. Absolute (based on zero) or relative (based on values of the targeted envelope)
Always sucked at maths, so visual and terms (like absolute/relative) may not be accurate, but I hope you've got the idea

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Old 01-19-2017, 01:57 PM   #53
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I'm thinking the paradigm introduced in this prerelease won't change, so there won't be separate lanes just for automation items. Live with it
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Old 01-19-2017, 05:10 PM   #54
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The problem with a separate lane for automation items (as much as I want it for readability) is that the envelopes still need a value in the sections where there's no automation item. Let's say you have an item that's a quick fade up -- once it hits its final value and the item ends -- Is it zero, is it maximum, half-way? Would it default to the regular automation lane -- and if so, is it a smooth curve or a hard jump? Combining them (as it is now) solves this problem, because it's always obvious what the value is.

Can't wait for overlapping automation items behaving like audio (cross-fade/interpolation of points)...going to be amazing.

...essentially Automation Items are just Reaper's version of being able to select/copy/paste areas of automation like in other daws lol and I'm not complaining, it's going to be great.
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Old 01-19-2017, 05:18 PM   #55
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Default Bug (Automation Items in Regions)

Automation Items currently don't copy when duplicating regions, but the points do. The items actually stay where they were in the timeline and destroy whatever automation was supposed to be there.

Last edited by ferropop; 01-19-2017 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 01-19-2017, 05:55 PM   #56
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*let's assume that there's an "as option" tag to everything i say in regards to automation items.

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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
envelopes still need a value in the sections where there's no automation item.
i agree differently. i think they need a one-off value at automation point end, not a static value that is applied in between automation items. compare to the existing REAPER feature - item automation envelopes for item fx, vs track automation envelopes for track fx. in the former, there is no envelope activity whatsoever in between items - but the parameter is left at last position and stays there until snapping instantly to next active envelope point.

i'm advocating for is a workflow that would be more like "item automation envelopes for track fx."

i hope REAPER will bypass the envelope when there is no automation item. yes, this will mean that all automation will have to be contained in items - i don't see a disadvantage here and will likely figure out a workflow to automatically contain any automation i write in an item, and resize the items accordingly.

furthermore, this would hopefully allow midi cc assignments to be useful during sections where there are no automation items.
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Old 01-19-2017, 06:51 PM   #57
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*let's assume that there's an "as option" tag to everything i say in regards to automation items.



i agree differently. i think they need a one-off value at automation point end, not a static value that is applied in between automation items. compare to the existing REAPER feature - item automation envelopes for item fx, vs track automation envelopes for track fx. in the former, there is no envelope activity whatsoever in between items - but the parameter is left at last position and stays there until snapping instantly to next active envelope point.

i'm advocating for is a workflow that would be more like "item automation envelopes for track fx."

i hope REAPER will bypass the envelope when there is no automation item. yes, this will mean that all automation will have to be contained in items - i don't see a disadvantage here and will likely figure out a workflow to automatically contain any automation i write in an item, and resize the items accordingly.

furthermore, this would hopefully allow midi cc assignments to be useful during sections where there are no automation items.
I can agree to some of what you say. The thing is, I think the whole point of automation items is for when you use an automation shape so often that it'd be useful to copy/paste it all over the place, across tracks etc.

Your example of Item FX Automation doesn't quite make sense here -- because the parameter being automated only exists on the item itself so it doesn't matter what's happening around it. With track effects, the parameter is active during the entire track, so it needs to know its value at all times.

...think of automating a lowpass filter to suddenly go from minimum to maximum...you'd draw a curve up and then leave the automation at maximum for the rest of the song (for example). Should that entire gigantic section after the curve be enclosed in an item? To me it doesn't make sense.
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Old 01-19-2017, 07:12 PM   #58
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...think of automating a lowpass filter to suddenly go from minimum to maximum...you'd draw a curve up and then leave the automation at maximum for the rest of the song (for example). Should that entire gigantic section after the curve be enclosed in an item? To me it doesn't make sense.
no, that is not what i described.
in your example, the curve is contained within the item. at the end of the item, the automation is at maximum. having received the info from the curve, the filter stays at maximum, until instructed otherwise by another automation item or a midi cc assigned to that parameter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Your example of Item FX Automation doesn't quite make sense here -- because the parameter being automated only exists on the item itself so it doesn't matter what's happening around it
yes, you'll need to imagine the behavior of item FX automation being applied to the track FX, and bypassing the envelope when it's not within the item.

Quote:
. With track effects, the parameter is active during the entire track, so it needs to know its value at all times.
it shouldn't be active during the entire track. that is the central point i am making.
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Old 01-20-2017, 06:52 AM   #59
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I'm thinking the paradigm introduced in this prerelease won't change, so there won't be separate lanes just for automation items. Live with it
You were this kid at school who told other Santa doesn't exist

That would be so sad, copy/pasting, sure it elimitates workaround process with "envelope points move with media items" and other actions, like lfo, but nothing we already have then. Such waste of flexibity compared to the whole reaper way of doing, yeah sad. But already know people will choose the 3 mouse click they will gain in their work instead of creative value, that's understandable
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Old 01-20-2017, 08:07 AM   #60
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Thanks for all of the excellent feedback so far. We are reworking the implementation, not total redesign but some significant changes.

The major thing we are changing is making the automation items more item-like, so that they can be layered over existing automation or other automation items, for example to place a fade-in item over an LFO item. There will probably be a lot of other behavior changes as a result.

While working on it, we will pull the automation items feature out of the ongoing prerelease builds. I would guess it will be about a week before it reappears.
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Old 01-20-2017, 08:32 AM   #61
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love it. thank you for tackling this, schwa. this is going to be very important for electronica composers and others.

this probably won't happen, but expanding the existing item fx automation to control track fx would do the trick for me. i know it's likely that you'll stick with the dedicated "item in envelope lane" approach, but consider a lateral example of playing to existing strengths: Heda's marker-and-region-from-items. REAPER's ability to manipulate, move, split, stretch, and effect items is already really well fleshed out. Heda used it to improve upon REAPER's native manipulation of markers and regions.
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Old 01-20-2017, 08:37 AM   #62
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so that they can be layered over existing automation or other automation items, for example to place a fade-in item over an LFO item.
While thinking about it, remember that to combine values, there are other mathematical operations besides addition and multiplication, the results of which can also depend on the order of the operands... (In other words, it would be interesting to allow for example for subtraction between automation items where the result would depend on the Y or Z GUI order or such of the items...)

Also you might want to keep in mind Reaper also has Eel and Lua scripting, so why not allow making some use of it for this too...
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Old 01-20-2017, 09:14 AM   #63
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The major thing we are changing is making the automation items more item-like, so that they can be layered over existing automation or other automation items, for example to place a fade-in item over an LFO item. There will probably be a lot of other behavior changes as a result.
Sounds amazing. Can they be visible in lanes when overlapping? I predict the confusion of two completely overlapping automation-items (just like regular items), and the beauty of hitting Ctrl-L to immediately see the items in lanes.

(also I'd drink the tears of gypsies for horizontal-tint/crosshairs in the track panel <3 ... figuring out what track your item belongs to on a 4k monitor is crazy and is becoming more and more common...if there was the option to tint horizontally whatever track the mouse is over, my life would be complete)
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Old 01-20-2017, 09:27 AM   #64
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Hmmm... automation items, the smoothest integration I can think of:

They'll contain information of points inside, not needing to have end points. The points contained will smoothly interpolate with previous and next points where ever they may be. Edges of the items could be adjustable as well as stretchable (mouse modifier). I can picture them acting as fluid as a selection of points currently is (i.e. adjustments of selection region and effecting ponts contained, without creating edge points). Pretty much like selections with the added ability of labeling and saving them.

Shucks, maybe later having stretch markers as well.

I know that it maybe simpler to have edge points created, but not absolutely necessary. The primary bits of data stored, I'm guessing, is the placement and length of the item and the relative positioning of its constituent points (and ther values, of course).

That information alone should be enough for smooth interpolation without end points.


Pretty much, end points could be optional when creating and/or adjusting automation items.


Wow,... I just gave it a real shot, and it pretty much already acts like this! Awesome!

Will be nice to see how the layering is implemented. Having Automation clips that control multiple parameters will be a dream come true.
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:08 AM   #65
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Are you guys planning to develop item AUX sends? I hope this is the right place to ask this question.
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Old 01-20-2017, 11:58 AM   #66
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Dude, you do know you can edit your posts instead of multiposting like crazy? :/
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Old 01-20-2017, 12:11 PM   #67
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Dude, you do know you can edit your posts instead of multiposting like crazy? :/
You could also stop multiposting your responses like crazy. I posted only two messages on this subject. Is that crazy in your universe? Chill... your policing skills could be used in better places.
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Old 01-20-2017, 12:21 PM   #68
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Sorry, I was posting to wrong thread. Oops


EDIT: No wait, I was responding to TonE since he had like 7 posts in a row, but all his posts are now gone...
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Old 01-20-2017, 12:41 PM   #69
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Sorry, I was posting to wrong thread. Oops


EDIT: No wait, I was responding to TonE since he had like 7 posts in a row, but all his posts are now gone...
No problem!
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:53 PM   #70
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How about an option in 'Prefs > Appearance' to specify the automation item
height in pixels? This would resolve the text cropping I experience using a
larger media item font size.
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Old 01-20-2017, 02:44 PM   #71
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would like to see a lane for automation items and some way to drag & drop track and plugin controls to the lane or item to determine the linkage.

one item controlling multiple parameters in an easy drag & drop workflow would be amazing!
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Old 01-20-2017, 03:25 PM   #72
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What if automation-items handled just like audio items in this way:

- An automation item has "invisible endpoints" which will instantly overtake whatever is on the normal envelope lane. No interpolation between points.
- Automation items has a fade in/fade out, which will interpolate the item points with the envelope lane points.

Just a method to consider.
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Old 01-20-2017, 03:38 PM   #73
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Just wanted to drop in to say I'm very excited about this. Cheers schwa and all!

Wish I had more time to make a useful contribution to the discussion.

(As always, I'll keep my eyes open for the more grievous bugs during day-to-day use, and try to helpfully report them. Though I barely notice any these days, which is probably a credit to the devs.

But for now I'll just say that the idea of automation items being in some way "universal", layerable (with different "blend" modes), etc., has a lot of potential. I think.

So thanks again!
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Old 01-21-2017, 09:20 AM   #74
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Quote:
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Thanks for all of the excellent feedback so far. We are reworking the implementation, not total redesign but some significant changes.

The major thing we are changing is making the automation items more item-like, so that they can be layered over existing automation or other automation items, for example to place a fade-in item over an LFO item. There will probably be a lot of other behavior changes as a result.

While working on it, we will pull the automation items feature out of the ongoing prerelease builds. I would guess it will be about a week before it reappears.
Brilliant, hopefully we can get item editing like normal items at some point too, exciting times !!
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Old 01-21-2017, 11:46 AM   #75
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Another small but important item feature request. I'd like to be able to type in volume levels next to the volume slider. Now, it seems I can only change it by dragging the slider.
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Old 01-21-2017, 11:49 AM   #76
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You can double-click on a point and enter value directly, though?
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Old 01-21-2017, 12:37 PM   #77
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Quote:
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How about an option in 'Prefs > Appearance' to specify the automation item
height in pixels?
Did you read Schwa's post? They are working on reimplementation, so it can be something different.
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Old 01-21-2017, 02:28 PM   #78
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Hi Developers

Please, while your at it, could you please allow time section or loop ends, snap to items edges while dragging to make a time selection with a mouse?

Mouse Modifiers> Ruler> Left Drag. Maybe an option there could work.

It snaps to grid lines, but not on items edge without the grid.

Something like this.
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=82

Edit: Maybe for auto items too?
Please disregard if I posted in the wrong thread.

Thanks
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:13 AM   #79
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Default ReaEQ Metaphor for Automation

For parameters with continuous functions within some bounded range, I would like to interact with automation the same way that I interact with ReaEQ. I would like to be able to create a delimiter, and then adjust the value of that delimiter, but then also define the "Q" around that parameter according to a type of curve shape I've selected for that point (as I'm able to do in ReaEQ, Wavelab, etc.) Having defined the point, the type of its shape, and its "Q" (I'm using the term "Q" metaphorically), I would like to interactively customize the shape to the left or right of the point, the same way I interactively grab and position a fade in a Reaper audio track clip. I would like to be able to define an editable region between any two points, perhaps through "time selection", and interact with that region without causing changes to any value outside that region, or the points that delimit the region.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:37 AM   #80
memyselfandus
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This is awesome!
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