Old 01-23-2017, 08:32 AM   #81
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Default great tool

wow, lot's of ideas

If I can add my reccomendations though, keep it simple and intuitive before stuffing it with tons of options.

My take would be that minimum needs are
- summing with existing envelopes (as Schwa says in his example)
- merge of automation item with automation envelope (with deletion of item afterwards)
- few operation on item itself: normal stretching, trimming, splitting, edge snapping or snap on points inside (both contemporary should be fine), overall "gain" increase / decrease
- the various LFO scripts out there should work also for the envelope included within an automation item (they're more than enough)
- duplication and movement within the track horizontally, across automation envelopes and across tracks
- massive vertical item duplication on all envelopes for all selected track(s)
- possibility to move automation items with sound items or not according to option chosen
- locking

that would make it a powerful editing tool which is the first need for automation env

The rest would be becoming a creative tool. Which is good but comes after in my opinion.

g
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Old 01-23-2017, 02:32 PM   #82
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FR: How about adding a formula parser?
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Old 01-25-2017, 10:49 AM   #83
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I'm gonna say it again. The way to accomplish this is to make the "automation items" be nothing but audio items.

Give us a few more tools for drawing audio.

Give us sample accurate Parameter Modulation (!!!)

Give us a mode for following audio input that is not rectified, gated above 0, and curvy, and we're done.

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Old 01-25-2017, 11:53 AM   #84
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Give us sample accurate Parameter Modulation (!!!)
That doesn't work with the majority of 3rd party plugins. (For example the VST3 standard only allows that to happen, but the plugins can completely ignore implementing it properly.)
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:41 PM   #85
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That doesn't work with the majority of 3rd party plugins. (For example the VST3 standard only allows that to happen, but the plugins can completely ignore implementing it properly.)
But that's true of automation via envelopes too, no?
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:43 PM   #86
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But that's true of automation via envelopes too, no?
Of course, plugins have no concept of making a difference between host implemented automation envelopes or parameter modulation.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:47 PM   #87
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Of course, plugins have no concept of making a difference between host implemented automation envelopes or parameter modulation.
So then what's you're point?!?

I don't meant to be harsh, but every time I bring this up, this is the only argument anybody gives, and it makes no sense to me whatsoever. Nobody put this forward as an argument against sample-accurate envelopes, so WTF?
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:50 PM   #88
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So then what's you're point?!?

I don't meant to be harsh, but every time I bring this up, this is the only argument anybody gives, and it makes no sense to me whatsoever. Nobody put this forward as an argument against sample-accurate envelopes, so WTF?
If the parameter modulation in Reaper doesn't currently work sample accurately with the tiny tiny number of plugins that actually support it, sure, then it's a defect/bug in Reaper and the developers should look at it. Even though it will be practically nearly useless because so few plugins support the sample accurate parameter changes anyway.

Regarding adding the sample accurate automation envelopes (and VST3 hosting) to begin with, I have no idea why people demanded that. I have known since VST3 came out that both the host and the plugin need to implement it. It has turned out that most VST3 plugins don't implement it. I guess people at large haven't read the VST3 documentation...
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:53 PM   #89
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I'd like that too.

VST2 and most other plugins don't do sample accurate automation. They do it on the edges of your sample buffer. Many plugins interpolate very well(Audiodamage for example).

The only sample accurate envelopes are volume and pan, as well as all the envelopes for Reaper plugins, which includes JS plugins. I don't know of the JS author has to do something special, so it may not be all JS plugins. The AAX plugins for Protools are sample accurate, though I do not know if it's a requirement or optional. Not that Protools is a great option to begin with for most folks though.

So, there are plenty of plugins that CAN do it, but most 3rd party plugins require experimentation to get the most out of. Just the way it is.

If you're ok with things that way, which I myself am, I say bring on parameter modulation accuracy and other clever stuff.

I'm curious to see what automation item stuff is going to happen with the next releases.
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:01 PM   #90
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envelopes for Reaper plugins, which includes JS plugins. I don't know of the JS author has to do something special, so it may not be all JS plugins. The AAX plugins for Protools are sample accurate, though I do not know if it's a requirement or optional.
I think the included ReaPlugs (ReaEQ, ReaPitch etc) are still VST2 plugins. (That only work in Reaper, though.) They still might support sample accurate automation via special hacks but I don't think they currently do that. Anybody care to test?

JesuSonic plugins need to add new code to support the sample accurate automation.

AAX plugins probably don't have a requirement to support the sample accurate automation since IPlug and JUCE can be used to build AAX plugins and they omit implementing the sample accurate automation.
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:53 PM   #91
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It'd actually be great to have a list of ALL plugins out there that support sample-accurate automation...
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:12 PM   #92
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It'd actually be great to have a list of ALL plugins out there that support sample-accurate automation...
Yes. (And if such a list is produced and the number of plugins in that is not "tiny", I am willing to concede I was wrong about it... Plugins that accept MIDI messages to be used as automation don't count though, that's a known limited hack that has been available for VST2 plugins and hosts to use for a very long time.)
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:26 PM   #93
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AFAIK, JS and ReaPlugs respond to sample-accurate automation. Honestly, that's about all I need anyway, but be that as it may I completely don't understand why there is that difference between modulation and automation. (!?!) If it's all the same at the plugin end, then why is it different on Reaper's side? Let the fucking chips fall where they may as far as which plugs can actually keep up! Theoretically, at least, more will implement it in the future and eventually it's going to be just plain standard, so why not take that step?

Either way, though, the Control Voltage/Audio as Envelope idea is by far the most useful and functional way to make this happen. Route them wherever you want, mix them and mess with them, pretty much everything that is on anybody's wish list for Automation Items falls together quick and easy and without rebuilding the whole damn thing. In fact, leave the envelopes as they are*, give us better PM, and let us pick and swap. Then you could have envelopes that control audio which modulates parameters. It all falls into place.



* Actually, some attention to how envelopes are drawn and manipulated would be nice anyway, things are pretty wonky as things stand. :/
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:58 PM   #94
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If it's all the same at the plugin end, then why is it different on Reaper's side?
Because maybe the Reaper developers for whatever reason have omitted implementing the parameter modulation in the same way as the automation envelopes. (It might appear it doesn't make sense they would have done things like that, but sometimes things simply go a certain way in software development.)

edit : OK, confirmed that at least with the JS Volume_pan_sample_accurate_auto, the parameter modulation doesn't appear to produce sample accurate results. Maybe needs a bit more testing, though...
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:03 PM   #95
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In any case, I recall the parameter modulation does in fact work sample accurately, but for the millionth time : the plugin also has to have a proper implementation for that to work correctly.
It doesn't. JS plugs will follow sample accurate envelopes, but use PM to modulate the same parameter, and it's stair-stepped. Pretty sure Justin has confirmed this in some thread somewhere, though he didn't explain why, and his only argument against implementing it was the same you've given, which to me is completely invalid and super frustrating.
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:08 PM   #96
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It doesn't. JS plugs will follow sample accurate envelopes, but use PM to modulate the same parameter, and it's stair-stepped. Pretty sure Justin has confirmed this in some thread somewhere, though he didn't explain why, and his only argument against implementing it was the same you've given, which to me is completely invalid and super frustrating.
I fixed my reply above.
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:34 PM   #97
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Great song.
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:35 PM   #98
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Great song.
Merci beaucoup!
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Old 01-26-2017, 02:41 AM   #99
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Kako si?
Very fine thank you very much ! Shame the origin of your language is unknown. I see now and then you post something in Japanese so I'm not sure is it google translate or native
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Old 01-27-2017, 04:52 AM   #100
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Would it be possible to have the track automation scale the item automation, giving us something similar to bitwigs multilayered automation? This allows you to create a complex modulation and then sweep that modulation with another envelope.

I'm not suggesting this be default behaviour. But it's a really useful feature
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Old 01-27-2017, 09:00 AM   #101
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Would it be possible to have the track automation scale the item automation, giving us something similar to bitwigs multilayered automation? This allows you to create a complex modulation and then sweep that modulation with another envelope.

I'm not suggesting this be default behaviour. But it's a really useful feature
I think that's one of the things Schwa mentioned as a reason to redo it. to allow things like that
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Old 01-28-2017, 07:47 AM   #102
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Cool
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:25 PM   #103
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Xenaxios - I want to thank you for your reply in the other thread:
Quote:
BTW, sample accurate automation does not mean sending automation for every sample, because that would peg the CPU. It means sending the plugin the exact timing for any change in automation -- informing the plugin exactly when envelope points occur. In the LFO case, it means sending the exact time when the LFO changes direction. The rest of the curve is smoothed the same way it always was, as are curved lines between envelope points.
This is at least a bit of a hint toward the actual practically of my request, and the closest I've seen to an explanation as I've seen yet. Like I said, it usually gets caught up in the whole "why would you want to" argument, and never gets to the details of how or why we can't. So, yeah, thanks!

It does raise the question, and excuse me if this is like a "remedial reading" type thing: Is this a limitation in Reaper's implementation of automation, or is it somehow baked into the way that plugins expect to interact with the host?

My thing is this: I can write a JS plugin that does...
@sample
spl0 = spl0 * spl1;
...and it works fine.

I can do...
@sample
slider1 = spl1;
spl0 = spl0 * slider1;
...and it works fine, and the output will be identical to the first.

But if I use PM to make slider1 follow the right side audio channel, and my plugin does...
@sample
spl0 = spl0 * slider1;
...it ends up stair-stepped, and you seem to be saying that if we tried to make it actually follow on a sample-for-sample basis, it would "peg the CPU".

That freaks me out.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:48 PM   #104
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Trying to insert A.ITEM at tempo envelope. Crash
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:02 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Gianfini View Post
wow, lot's of ideas

If I can add my reccomendations though, keep it simple and intuitive before stuffing it with tons of options.

My take would be that minimum needs are
- summing with existing envelopes (as Schwa says in his example)
- merge of automation item with automation envelope (with deletion of item afterwards)
- few operation on item itself: normal stretching, trimming, splitting, edge snapping or snap on points inside (both contemporary should be fine), overall "gain" increase / decrease
- the various LFO scripts out there should work also for the envelope included within an automation item (they're more than enough)
- duplication and movement within the track horizontally, across automation envelopes and across tracks
- massive vertical item duplication on all envelopes for all selected track(s)
- possibility to move automation items with sound items or not according to option chosen
- locking

that would make it a powerful editing tool which is the first need for automation env

The rest would be becoming a creative tool. Which is good but comes after in my opinion.

g
Exactly, not 10 0000 options that dont work right way its not prductive, but more intuitive workflow with new features..
Reaper is allready too technical and takes lots of work to run propely with all of the customizeable actions. Complexity is not always the best
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:12 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Xenaxios - I want to thank you for your reply in the other thread:
But if I use PM to make slider1 follow the right side audio channel, and my plugin does...
@sample
spl0 = spl0 * slider1;
...it ends up stair-stepped, and you seem to be saying that if we tried to make it actually follow on a sample-for-sample basis, it would "peg the CPU".

That freaks me out.
It was actually Schwa who wrote that reply, but I'll reply to this anyway...

The sample accurate automation data is delivered to the plugin from the host as a list/array of automation events that are heavier data structures than audio samples. It totally makes sense for the host to not deliver those events into the plugin at the sample rate since in most cases. (Because the automation envelope of the host can be expressed exactly or with a pretty good accuracy as line segments.) The "sample accurate" thing comes from the ability to schedule those automation events inside the current audio processing buffer which was not possible in VST2. That only allowed changing a parameter value just before processing the audio buffer. "Sample accurate" does not mean audio rate control signals as such are involved in any of this. (The VST3 automation system could be abused to do that but it would be a suspicious idea.)

Your JesuSonic example may have additional issues that might not exist with VST3 plugins. (The parameters may be connected with the audio processing in a different way, the GUI thread may be involved in it etc...)

This is a bit complicated to explain verbally, some pictures would explain it much better, but I can't do those at the moment.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:01 AM   #107
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Bug?

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Old 02-14-2017, 02:16 PM   #108
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Default Automation items. Reverse option at some point? :)

hmm.. Reversing Automation items at some point as a right click option?
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:12 PM   #109
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:42 PM   #110
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Some stuff I would like to see added to AI:

1) The ability to mute & solo with associated actions in action list.
2) Formula parser.
3) The ability to combine AIs so as to create a new item with various options such as:
a) create new item and mute others
b) create new item and delete others

The reason for creating new items is for better visualization, the way it is now with stacked items you have to watch how the knob/slider is reacting. With complex waveforms or more than 2 items it can be quite hard to know if the result is the intended one.

There could be an input box where the user could type stuff like:
Itm1 + Itm2
Itm1 + Itm2 * Itm3
Itm1 + Itm2(50) <---This number would be a blend percentage.

4) Ability to drag&drop saved AIs from within file explorer, and maybe change the current 'load list' to a 'favorites list' because the way it is now I can see that list easily becoming over-crowded.

5) Perhaps the ability to create thumbnails of AIs so when browsing in file explorer it's easier to find what you're looking for.

...anyway, just some ideas. Thank you for listening.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:07 AM   #111
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Could we please have an action to select all the points inside current AI, perhaps by double-clicking on its handle/edge?

AI Properties dialog inserts an item, but Undo history doesn't register it:


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Old 02-15-2017, 07:33 AM   #112
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AI's points at loop points are almost invisible.


It would be great to have it like on Take FX envelopes.

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Old 02-15-2017, 01:29 PM   #113
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Is it possible to have automation items on the master track for tempo and time signature?
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:33 PM   #114
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Nope.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:39 PM   #115
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It's built in and non-customizable.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:33 AM   #116
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Automation Item Properties dialog doesn't remember its position. Not cool
And some other windows too...
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:55 AM   #117
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Default Moving AIs bug

I can hide them
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:37 AM   #118
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In reaper540pre2 64 bit windows 10:

If you delete an automation item by getting rid of all of its points, when you undo, it comes back as an empty automation item of incorrect loop length.

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Old 02-18-2017, 10:41 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkamist View Post
If you delete an automation item by getting rid of all of its points, when you undo, it comes back as an empty automation item
Fixing, thanks.
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:50 AM   #120
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I asked in a different thread but I'll ask here since this thread seems to be more permanent.

Does anyone know if there is a way to change the baseline automation item color? As you can see from my LICEcap above, my theme's background is roughly the same color as them so they are hard to see when not selected. I would rather change the baseline color of automation items than change my background color.
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