Old 04-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #1
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I really want to apologize for posting it here, even though I clearly understand everything I am about to say dose not belong to the Pre-Release Discussion.

The reason I am doing so, so that people who care about Reaper could join the conversation and luckily our BOSS @Justin get the chance to see it before I got banned or this would be moved/removed.
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I discovered Reaper fairly recently in mid 2016 and since then there were lot's of love and hate moments.

The biggest advantage of Reaper that community can develop and modify functions that Reaper lacks off and that is absolutely fantastic!
But unfortunately some things community can't fix and those things can hold lots of people from using Reaper as their main DAW.

Now I will become more specific about issues that prevent new professional audio engineers and composers become a full time users. ref: OSX 10.10.5 but I've seen people that use Windows version experience the same issues.

1) Keyboard plug/unplug bug
If your Keyboard was unplugged (or in fact any device that sends MIDI) you have to restart your DAW in order to make your device send midi again.

2) Melodyne 4

Melodyne became an industry standard for tuning vocals.
Yes it's better to get a good singer but anyway, Melodyne is a must for tuning vocals and in a state that it is right now, it's impossible to work with it.
You can't use shortcuts if you use it as a plugin (any format) and there are tons of unexpected behavior.
On top of that nobody knows how to rewire properly Melodyne Studio so that you can transfer audio from the session.

People have been requesting proper support for Melodyne for quite a long time... all it takes to type in Google "melodyne reaper" and read first few links to understand that people are confused how to use it with Reaper.
//ARA support is something that everyone have been requesting.

3) Default Theme and shortcuts

While this is really subjective but every time I introduce Reaper to new people the first thing I hear "What is this new DP 8?", witch is a common joke among Berklee kids, that basically mean (ugly, laggy and not user-friendly Digital Performer)

Most audio engineers and producers spend at least 6-7 hours by looking/working in their DAW and if it dose not feel right they will switch pretty quickly.

I know that you already work with White Tie and I really encourage in future releases to make his Imperial Theme used by default.

The skin (feel) of the DAW brings more credibility for new users and makes them to pass that learning curve.

4) Some VSTs dose can't be used with sidechain function.

While most of my VSTs can be used with sidechain some of them still dose not work in Reaper.

I got two examples that I tested personally and side-chain didn't work.
1) Vocal Rider (Waves)
2) MCompressor (Meldaproduction)

but people claim that there is more: Waves C6, Metric Halo ChannelStrip, Wave Arts TrackPlug, BlueCat Dynamics.


____________

These are some major issues that Reaper have and I would be really happy if Justin can address some of them or briefly say why it is not a priority to fix them.

I totally understand that dominating all platforms would be extremely nice (talking about development for Linux platforms) but it would be reasonable when issues that prevent people from creating music would be resolved.

::side note::
If in Reaper 6 Cockos will reintroduce NINJAM it will blow people's mind.
Collaborating with people on the distance became a really huge topic and you guys already have a working solution!

Most people don't even know about NINJAM and that's a huge shame.
Plus installers for Windows/MAC servers are extremely old and dose not work properly for new OS systems.

Please revive that project and reintroduce it in new shell, I promise it would be a huge success and advantage for people.
::side note::



sincerely yours,
inari
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:39 PM   #2
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1) Keyboard plug/unplug bug
If your Keyboard was unplugged (or in fact any device that sends MIDI) you have to restart your DAW in order to make your device send midi again.
Run this action instead of restarting:


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Old 04-19-2017, 03:44 PM   #3
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2) MCompressor (Meldaproduction)
MCompressor doesn't have an external sidechain.

As for the other plugins, sidechaining is just a question of the plugin offering an extra set of channels for audio input. If a plugin's sidechain isn't working, I'm extremely confident that it's a plugin issue and not Reaper.

Regarding the theme, I find Imperial extremely pretty but 100% unuseable. Half of the buttons don't have labels on them, so you just have to know what everything does - I get that it's mimicking hardware, but that would be a TERRIBLE idea for your DAW's default theme. New users already can't find things, so let's take the labels off? No.

However, have you tried my Nitpicky mod of the v5 theme (see my signature)? It cleans up some of the more common user complaints.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:45 PM   #4
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You can't use shortcuts if you use it as a plugin (any format)
You can. Right-click the title bar of the plugin window and you have an option to send all keyboard input to the plugin there.


Also, Imperial will never be the default theme. Just forget it. It's tailored to a very specific workflow involving large monitors. Default theme should adapt to most any display format, and it cannot be too much fluff. You have plenty of other themes to choose from if the default is not to your liking, so...
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:17 PM   #5
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//ARA support is something that everyone have been requesting.
Not me

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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
3) Default Theme and shortcuts

While this is really subjective but every time I introduce Reaper to new people the first thing I hear "What is this new DP 8?", witch is a common joke among Berklee kids, that basically mean (ugly, laggy and not user-friendly Digital Performer)
I really like the default look of Reaper, I like a minimal and clean interface, I hate a cluttered interface. And Reaper's interface is certainly not "laggy".
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:23 PM   #6
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Not me


I really like the default look of Reaper, I like a minimal and clean interface, I hate a cluttered interface. And Reaper's interface is certainly not "laggy".
100% do not want ARA.

10%% do not want white tie imperial. It's pretty, but it's inefficient.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:38 PM   #7
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I for one and am 100% ARA "wanter" (just wanted to balance that out) but agree on the theme. Looks great but not essential for most people.

Glad some of your wants got answered but might want to post first in the help section and then in the many ARA and theme threads.

You won't get banned but everyone has things that are "must haves" and eventually they get done. Just needs time.

Also, I have used melodyne as an item plugin before with pretty good success. It kind of makes it a little bit more "ARA" like
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:38 PM   #8
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Pretty sure this shouldn't be in the prerelease forum

Sidechain works on every plugin that supports it, and significantly more flexibility is allowed when deciding which audio/midi is routed to/from the plugin than most daws offer

Imperial is amazing but I would never even consider using it while producing and it doesn't fit the bill for a default theme in any way, the layout of Rado would work well for that role imo, although the aesthetics they go for are not really my cup of tea
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:58 PM   #9
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Despise the default theme, hate not having ARA, recently tried a bunch of the other DAWs again, because nobody I work with can use Reaper, which means me teaching people again (I hate that nowadays too)
Problem is, all the other DAWs are total shit (excuse my French)
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:15 PM   #10
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Despise the default theme
well, I don't despise the default theme, I just really don't like it!
A modified Janne theme is what I use and it's functional and gorgeous.
Never had a problem working with Melodyne.
Love my Reaper.
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:13 PM   #11
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The biggest turn off for newcomers in my experience was the menus. Very poorly organised. View menu especially:

http://puu.sh/vq2Ky/fa5e1480ea.png

Imo ReaMenus should just come standard
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:46 PM   #12
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I love reaper... and I'm pretty sure I'll love the next 10 pre's even better...

...btw... what has been your experience with other DAW forums? How about their update timing?

..and last but certainly not least... how many themes or skins do you have for Logic, PT, Cubase, Sonar, etc.?

Ummm... have you bothered to customize YOUR menus to be the way YOU want them? Or YOUR toolbars? or mouse mods....

If ARA is a deal breaker for you ... say an ara ....

I'll just keep on keeping on... cuz over the last 10 years I've seen almost identical posts more than a few times....
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
prevent new professional audio engineers and composers
Tons of similar "killer" Feature Requests show that that the criterion to honor oneself as a "professional" is the inability to deviate from the workflow or viewing habits one at one point in time decided to be the only ones that are possible.

Happily Reaper is not "professional" in that sense but can move and evolve (of course also because of decent feature requests).

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Old 04-19-2017, 10:59 PM   #14
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The reason I am doing so, so that people who care about Reaper could join the conversation and luckily our BOSS @Justin get the chance to see it before I got banned.
Whatever makes you think you are about to be banned?
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:29 PM   #15
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...
On top of that nobody knows how to rewire properly Melodyne Studio so that you can transfer audio from the session.

...
Yeah, its the same problem with health care. Nobody knew it is so compilcated...

Sorry, but thats not a fault of Reaper but of the user. There is a manual. Reading helps.

And I am one of those who dont know what ARA really is. So I dont think I need it.

Reaper is ugly. Hm. Maybe. But... other themes blabla... you know what I say. iLogic is fantastic, Imperial looks impressive, but I dont like it, because it uses too much real estate on my screen. So... there is nothing more subjective AND changeable than the look of Reaper.

And because its all subjective its a moot discussion (again and again). I dont think Justin & Co. will rework the whole thing - because every other outcome will yield the same discussions (again and again).
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:53 AM   #16
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I'd move this to general discussion

1) user inexperience (see prev post for solution)
2) user inexperience about shortcut issue, for the rewire and other things yes I heard there have been some issue with Melodyne
4) all plugs you mentioned either don't have sidechain by themselves or they do work for me like a breeze, not a point

3) YES THIS IS THE KEY POINT

In general Reaper devs don't seem to care that much about attracting/converting new users. New users, by experience, get caught by:
a. appealing and intuitive interface
b. intuitive and recognizable (!and clearly documented!) initial workflow, including mouse mod, shortcuts, menu positions, etc... independently from the fact that down-the-road after few months they'll learn how to fully customize it... customization it's not the first 2 weeks affair
c. key functionalities and compatibility with key plugins GETTING BETTER EVERY RELEASE
d. stability YES WE HAVE IT

Points a and b there fall very short. Reaper has an incredible steep learning curve. Not even a 15 pages "immediate start" manual with reference to most common workflows.

Experienced users here (including me) cannot fully judge, as we are able to download tons of themes and some of us even to tweak them in Walter and we can fully customize our workflow even adopting the new Radial menu and alike. But this - believe me - for most new user who are musicians - it comes after 6 / 12 months of working on the DAW... way too long to get in love with Reaper.

I'm saying it because I tested it on at least half dozen of friends (producing or mixing music)


To be costructive what I think devs should do before or after
- build a really strong and intuitive interface, even using experienced UX designer and modern design techniques
- define the key INITIAL workflows they want to Reaper to use, compare it to competition in order to make it recognizable and as powerful as, adopt them for clean installation and document them very well in simple/short document
- close the usability gaps (there are many) even including some very good third party actions as standard in the base installation: for example half of item editing capabilities are in third parties actions (SWS or Reapack) and not connected directly to menues, shortcuts

It's less of a rush for the new functionality (which is what us experienced users want) and more of a intelligent 'repainting' I know. It could have a business case for devs though (and for us as Repaer could easily become the world standard for DAW)

g
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:58 AM   #17
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4) all plugs you mentioned either don't have sidechain by themselves or they do work for me like a breeze, not a point
But get this - even if a plugin does NOT have sidechain inputs, you can sidechain them using Reaper's parameter modulation. Not a lot of DAWs other than Reaper can do that (FL Studio, Bitwig, Live?)
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
1) Keyboard plug/unplug bug
2) Melodyne 4
3) Default Theme and shortcuts
4) Some VSTs dose can't be used with sidechain function.
None of these is particularly important to me, but I would add point:
5) Better overall UX and UI, those things which cannot be themed.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:36 AM   #19
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None of these is particularly important to me, but I would add point:
5) Better overall UX and UI, those things which cannot be themed.
+1 for this.
I am a newcomer to Reaper after 10 years of FL Studio and demo trials of almost all major market DAWs.
Reaper just blew my mind with all its features and workflow but please Cockos, let all the other wiindows inside you to be skinnable and let the Windows XP skin like to vanish.
All REAplugs are amazing but why let them look like this?
I know..functionality vs looks but I hope that on version 6 , devs will unlock this feature.

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Old 04-20-2017, 05:04 AM   #20
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inarisound, 1) simple key shortcut/button on toolbar solves a problem.
2) i agree about melodyne, but not a big problem, it's usable.
3) default theme is not fancy, but easy on eyes and very intuitive, and that is the most important thing.
4) never had a problem with side-chains, even if few plugins don't have it, not a problem, there is a ton of other variants.
No offense, but letter about nothing.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:57 AM   #21
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5) Better overall UX and UI, those things which cannot be themed.
Stating the exact issues in detail might help triggering some improvement.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:02 AM   #22
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I hate the 21st century.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:14 AM   #23
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:36 AM   #24
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+1 to some UI UX design consult.

In my experience teaching REAPER to people I've found that a lot of great features are not easily 'discoverable'.

cheap idea which would reduce questions in this forum by 4%: Have a first time startup popup that alerts people to the action window!
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:37 AM   #25
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If ARA is a deal breaker for you ... say an ara ....
Nice !!
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:35 AM   #26
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MCompressor doesn't have an external sidechain.
Au contraire: Enable [Sidechain Input] in the Sidechain panel (that's the VST2 edition, anyway)
>>> https://i.imgur.com/duS4IWK.png
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
1) Keyboard plug/unplug bug
If your Keyboard was unplugged (or in fact any device that sends MIDI) you have to restart your DAW in order to make your device send midi again.
Either use the midi reset action as cfillion pointed out, or simply open the preferences / midi devices page. If your keyboard shows up there, it's ready to be used.

Thanks for the tip on the midi reset btw. I didn't know that one.


Quote:
2) Melodyne 4
Not sure what priority ARA support is. Maybe it's harder to implement than we think. I hope that makes it in here. I'd like to use an inline version of Izotope RX in the future, if they'd support ARA. Izotope RX 6 is out btw. Gonna test the advanced version.

Quote:
3) Default Theme and shortcuts
Default has to be usable to most users, and it's easy to modify on an image-level.

Here's a shot of the very simple automation buttons I created for myself, because the default ones were not obvious enough to me in my mixing workflow(film/tv post production).



The reason I do not use most custom themes is that I need automation feedback on volume, pan and mute controls in the track control panels and mixer control panels. Most custom themes do not light their up those elements red when those parameters are actively writing.

Btw, you can modify any theme to your liking. It may take effort, but it's worth it.

The default theme is not just for you, and that's just the way it is. That shouldn't stop you from pointing out specific shortcomings though. Please do not hold back. Tell the theme folks in the THEME FORUM SECTION in what way the default theme is functioning badly. Leave your taste out of it as much as possible.


Quote:
4) Some VSTs dose can't be used with sidechain function.
They have to support extra channels as input. ReaComp and most other sidechain-capable plugins use channels 3/4 for that. Check the plugin pin matrix for this, and take a look in the manual for an example.

Quote:
I got two examples that I tested personally and side-chain didn't work.
1) Vocal Rider (Waves)
2) MCompressor (Meldaproduction)

but people claim that there is more: Waves C6, Metric Halo ChannelStrip, Wave Arts TrackPlug, BlueCat Dynamics.
The C6 only does sidechaning in its VST3 version(at least on Windows). If that doesn't work, that's worth pointing out to Waves as well. They support the VST3 versions in Reaper.

I do not use the other plugins. Feel free to post more shortcomings.

As you may have seen, nobody here knows everything .
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:07 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You can. Right-click the title bar of the plugin window and you have an option to send all keyboard input to the plugin there.
Someone recommended to right click everywhere. I thought I did.
Damn! there are so many context menues
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:14 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Au contraire: Enable [Sidechain Input] in the Sidechain panel (that's the VST2 edition, anyway)
>>> https://i.imgur.com/duS4IWK.png
My copy of MCompressor specifically says it's just an internal sidechain with a filter. Maybe they've updated it.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:24 PM   #30
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To be fair, at this point you just have to think "they will get to it eventually" RE ARA support, the fact that they did automation items recently shows this, just don't expect it to be what you would really want, it will just be functional ala said automation items.
And there is a possibility that they do that for a reason, Reaper still runs well enough on some really crap hardware, trust me, after testing a bunch recently, that is quite rare for DAW software.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:36 PM   #31
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Pretty much.

Reaper as a product is most likely successful way beyond anything the creator dreamed of when he first started working on it. The other stuff is mostly user projection, competitions they create to "dominate" this or "rule" that or "beat" some other thing and other such nonsense.

Given the truly AMAZING wide diversity of choices on the daw market these days it's puzzling why anyone anywhere is really unhappy when it comes to using a daw.

But yeah, I doubt if the Reaper guys need help to find "success". They've already done that.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:41 PM   #32
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They need zero help for success, having spoken to a few distributor friends and such recently, Reaper is seen as one of the big audio packages now, and it seriously annoys the crap out of some distributors because they get zero cut haha
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:44 PM   #33
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Reaper is far from the only daw not in music stores, being sold direct.

I know some people badly want to know how their literal sales (volume wise) compare to Cubase, Sonar and the like (and often make numbers up out thin air) but that's something they'll probably never know unless they can get WikiLeaks to rip Cockos tax returns.

The non-stop user created "contest" stuff is highly entertaining though.
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:44 PM   #34
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Thank you for all of your comments, I've read them all and see that you really care about this DAW as much as I do.

Unfortunately most of the replies nitpicking on one subject and continue jumping on the surface of the problem without getting a wide picture.


1) cfillion

Thank you very much for your suggestion, just like airon have mentioned I never knew about this function and I am relatively new user.


But here is the catch... arion was using reaper since 2006 and he still didn't know about that feature. Yes you might say that there is no problem with that, he was not interested in that functionality,

but that would be a false statement.

The problem is that by default when you plug and unplug keyboard/midi device this function "Reset Midi Devices" should already be triggered and dose not require user for any extra action or knowledge to do so.

That's how all applications work, and it's not a bad practice.

/// to make it even more clear, the problem is that expected behavior is not triggered, yes we do have a workaround but even experienced users don't know about that function what would you expect from someone who was just wondering to explore a new DAW //


2) I've seen lot's of people bashing me for bringing up Melodyne as one of the key points.

Fact stays the same, there are lot's of graphic/system bugs when you use it as a VST. And this tool is still mandatory for professional vocal editing.

Well if there is no problem with Melodyne 4 can somebody create a gif of how they transfer specific parts of the vocals.

Because when I try to do that I have to press play first then quickly jump into Melodyne and press "Transfer" otherwise if I press "Transfer" in Melodyne it will record only first 2 seconds and then stop transferring.

p.s

EvilDragon

I totally forgot about that checkbox... you are genius, thank you.

p.p.s

haervo

I am pretty experienced with routing still couldn't figure out and there is no manual how to rewire Melodyne with Reaper if you are not just a "big words" guy, help me out, show me how it's done.

3) Lokasenna thank you for your theme recommendation but unfortunately it's still not the one.

As I said before It's all matter of taste, but I am really glad that most of you agreed with that point UI and UX needs to be remastered.

The way it looks right now is something from Windows 1991 and lot's of functions are simply hidden or buried because of it.

It would be really great if Justin could get in touch with the guy who created UI for xFer Serum
http://pureav.deviantart.com/art/Ser...-GUI-483397829

, I think Reaper would instantly become #1 sexiest DAW of all times.

4) It's really fascinating how humans can give confident comments about issues they have no idea about.

Both of plugins I've mentioned support sidechain and work perfectly fine in all other DAWs (Ableton, PT, Logic and Cubase //the one that I tested//) but somehow only Reaper dose not support them.

Clearly it's not Reaper's bug it's a plugin fault, I would believe so only if it worked on PT and Logic and not in Ableton and Cubase.


Yes there are lot's and lots of other complimentary plugins that will work perfectly fine, but if you are actually buying your software and paying 70$ each, you would want them to work instead of searching other tools.

if anyone knows how to recreate sidechain for Vocal Rider specifically (cuz I have working glue compressor for my SC) I would really appreciate that, though I am convinced it's a bug within Reaper because Music knob in Vocal Rider is not adjustable.

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Thank you once again for your replies I really wish that Justin at least consider to look into 1) and 3) issues.

Last edited by inarisound; 04-20-2017 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:24 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inarisound View Post
if anyone knows how to recreate sidechain for Vocal Rider specifically (cuz I have working glue compressor for my SC) I would really appreciate that, though I am convinced it's a bug within Reaper because Music knob in Vocal Rider is not adjustable.
If a knob is not automatable, that is not Reaper's issue, it's a plugin issue because it's not reporting that knob as automatable to the host. Nothing Reaper can do about it.

Otherwise, for any automatable knob, you can just click it, click the Param button in Reaper's FX window header, and select "Parameter modulation". Then you can use parameter modulation's audio envelope follower to do sidechain on any parameter you want. You need to add two input channels in plugin's I/O pin matrix, and then route your sidechain signal to those channels. Voila!
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Reaper is far from the only daw not in music stores, being sold direct.

I know some people badly want to know how their literal sales (volume wise) compare to Cubase, Sonar and the like (and often make numbers up out thin air) but that's something they'll probably never know unless they can get WikiLeaks to rip Cockos tax returns.

The non-stop user created "contest" stuff is highly entertaining though.
Why are you stating any of this like you are replying to somebody ?
Nobody ever said it was the only DAW not in music stores, although it is by far the most popular non store DAW, that isn't guesswork, it is basic common sense.
And i really have no idea what user created "contest" stuff means ?
If you mean all the Reaper is gonna kill and pwn and any other load of shite that is typed, that happens on pretty much every forum for every package, so not sure why it is being mentioned here ?
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:14 AM   #37
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I have tried lots of themes, but I always end up going back to the default, because it is the most functional for me. I had to stop using imperial because I found the lack of folder indent on the tcp confusing, for example. I would like to see the default made prettier, particularly for large 4k screens, but not flashier, if that makes sense.

I also dabble with Bitwig, and am very impressed with their ui / ux design. So it would be cool to get closer to that in the future.
I think the plugin rack concept for generic ui which bitwig and ableton share is much more conducive to fx chain experimentation, and the modulation system is more visible and easier to get a grasp of than reaper's parameter modulation, even if the functionality is roughly the same.

Just my thoughts anyway
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
My copy of MCompressor specifically says it's just an internal sidechain with a filter. Maybe they've updated it.
Yep, it was added in v10.07
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:09 AM   #39
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every thing i found in reaper comapared to all DAW is fantastic except UI its bit not good looking even if i change the theme it still somehow not looking good
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:32 AM   #40
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quote 'The reason I am doing so, so that people who care about Reaper could join the conversation and luckily our BOSS @Justin get the chance to see it before I got banned or this would be moved/removed'

false news alert, false news alert
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