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Old 10-04-2022, 10:19 AM   #1
tohubohu
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Default [Notation editor] : Make two eighth notes tied to a half note

Reaper 6.68
Pattern ABBB
measure 4/4

I can't write this very simple rhythm with Reaper everywhere in the measure.
screenshot musescore below (what i want to get)


I get this at best below but it is illegible
screenshot reaper below


it's a very basic rhythm.
thks

Last edited by tohubohu; 10-22-2022 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:35 AM   #2
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If you mean that you want to specify what note lengths make up the entire tied note, like in Dorico for example, you cannot do that. In Reaper all is automatic and it also depends on the position in the measure.

The best you can do is to use Minimize ties and to set a rhythm pattern.

I personally don't mind this. I see Reaper's notation as a dirty low level tool for hard work on a musical side. If I want to polish the notes, I export musicXml and use a proper engraving software. Actually every time I want to print, I use Dorico.

EDIT:
Because in Musescore or Dorico, all three notes from you ideal screenshot are considered as separate objects which a user draws in. In Reaper, when you tie several notes into one, it becomes a single object. Because the Reaper's notation is a "MIDI skin". And the specific notes shown in tha staff are calculated. Ofcourse it could be made possible to set what notes would make up the tie but me personally I do not consider this as important. There are more important things to fix, like zooming!

Last edited by bFooz; 10-04-2022 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 11:43 AM   #3
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BUT ... set the rhythm pattern to AABB
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
There are more important things to fix, like zooming!
ah the zoom! I don't know if he will ever come!
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
BUT ... set the rhythm pattern to AABB
it works at the beginning of the measure but not afterwards. but thanks.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
If you mean that you want to specify what note lengths make up the entire tied note, like in Dorico for example, you cannot do that. In Reaper all is automatic and it also depends on the position in the measure.

The best you can do is to use Minimize ties and to set a rhythm pattern.

I personally don't mind this. I see Reaper's notation as a dirty low level tool for hard work on a musical side. If I want to polish the notes, I export musicXml and use a proper engraving software. Actually every time I want to print, I use Dorico.

EDIT:
Because in Musescore or Dorico, all three notes from you ideal screenshot are considered as separate objects which a user draws in. In Reaper, when you tie several notes into one, it becomes a single object. Because the Reaper's notation is a "MIDI skin". And the specific notes shown in tha staff are calculated. Ofcourse it could be made possible to set what notes would make up the tie but me personally I do not consider this as important. There are more important things to fix, like zooming!
I agree but there is a minimum. the rhythms must also be legible.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:40 PM   #7
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the rhythm on the second screenshot is unreadable to me. I have never seen rhythms so badly written in my life as a musician.

Last edited by tohubohu; 10-05-2022 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 12:46 PM   #8
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That would scare away a lot of musicians and I wonder by the way seeing that if I'm not going to go on musescore.
this discovery frightened me personally. It's weird that I didn't come across it before.

for the moment, I was writing other things, simpler things with the editor.

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Old 10-04-2022, 01:01 PM   #9
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And as I translate the score editor into French for the French-speaking community (only for choosing the right musical technical terms , because my English is bad ), I was forced to think and understand all the features of the editor. and I saw some things to fix that I posted on the bug forum. but there .... two eighth notes tied to a half note written eighth note, dotted quarter note tied to a quarter note ... it hurts my eyes too much!!!
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:10 PM   #10
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I am not actually very experienced on how the ties and beams should be made in a properly engraved music.
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:30 PM   #11
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if it's not fixed, I'll finish the translation and then I'll go to musescore. I saw a video just now. it's not too bad. but it's a shame I liked the possibility on reaper to insert notes with the mouse cursor by pressing 4 or 5 keys on the keyboard. it was quick. I don't think it's possible on musescore.
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Old 10-05-2022, 12:20 AM   #12
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Gould has a base rule that every tie be separated in the middle of the measure. There are probably some exceptions, I haven't read it so carefully.

But do you think this is acceptable?
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Old 10-05-2022, 12:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Gould has a base rule that every tie be separated in the middle of the measure. There are probably some exceptions, I haven't read it so carefully.

But do you think this is acceptable?
The desired result in the OP is much more legible, whatever Gould has to say. But REAPER isn't engraving software, and the notation generated is IMO more of a reference or convenience than a finished product. Honestly, calling this "a crippling bug !" detracts from actual bugs in the software.
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Old 10-05-2022, 01:14 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
The desired result in the OP is much more legible, whatever Gould has to say. But REAPER isn't engraving software, and the notation generated is IMO more of a reference or convenience than a finished product. Honestly, calling this "a crippling bug !" detracts from actual bugs in the software.
maybe 'crippling' isn't the right term. I am French. I am looking for the right term.
in French: rédhibitoire for the use of the notation editor

if I compare with a sentence:
we say: the cat is in the house
we don't say: cat the house in the is...

there it's the same, two eighth notes tied to a half note, it's not written as the software writes it. It's 'twisted' writing (I don't know if that's the right term yet )
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Old 10-05-2022, 01:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tohubohu View Post
maybe 'crippling' isn't the right term. I am French. I am looking for the right term.
in French: rédhibitoire for the use of the notation editor

if I compare with a sentence:
we say: the cat is in the house
we don't say: cat the house in the is...

there it's the same, two eighth notes tied to a half note, it's not written as the software writes it. It's 'twisted' writing (I don't know if that's the right term yet )
It's a limitation. You don't need to convince me that your version is better -- I agree, and it's supported by a few centuries of notation tradition.

Which doesn't change my opinion that getting this detail right this isn't really what REAPER is for, and if you absolutely need to get it right, you should look for dedicated engraving software. There are numerous other limitations and problems in the MIDI Editor which IMO deserve more attention.
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Old 10-05-2022, 01:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Gould has a base rule that every tie be separated in the middle of the measure. There are probably some exceptions, I haven't read it so carefully.

But do you think this is acceptable?

it's a little better.
but it is readable on a measure. If it's a entire piece with two quarter notes instead of a half note, it quickly becomes difficult to read, I think.
and above all, if you do two eighth notes tied to a dotted half note, then it becomes unreadable in an entire piece of music.

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Old 10-05-2022, 01:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
It's a limitation. You don't need to convince me that your version is better -- I agree, and it's supported by a few centuries of notation tradition.

Which doesn't change my opinion that getting this detail right this isn't really what REAPER is for, and if you absolutely need to get it right, you should look for dedicated engraving software. There are numerous other limitations and problems in the MIDI Editor which IMO deserve more attention.
I was just talking about minimal...not professional scoring software.
but yes I will change. I will go to musescore for scoring.
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Old 10-05-2022, 01:33 AM   #18
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It's a limitation.
it's more than a limit for me. it's just not possible. If the limit was contemporary music notations or more complex things, ok, we accept. but these are basic stuff.
Have a good day
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Old 10-05-2022, 01:40 AM   #19
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ps: I don't think that in the midi editor there are such basic problems. This problem on the notation editor would be similar to a problem on the same level as "not being able to lengthen a note in the piano roll"...in my opinion, it is on the same level.
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Old 10-07-2022, 03:54 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Gould has a base rule that every tie be separated in the middle of the measure.
I don't really know what that means but when two quarter notes are tied, it must be written in half notes and drawn with a half note, whatever the position in the measure. I've never seen two quarter notes tied together in this kind of configuration. Then there may be. be rare cases in scores with several complex voices where it can exist but it is not even sure.

I don't know anything about programming, but if I had to program a score editor, the first step would have been to create a staff, the second circles on the lines .... and a little later to code only two tied quarter notes turn into half note. those are the basics.
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Old 10-08-2022, 04:36 AM   #21
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The default automatic behaviour could be better. There exists a specification (e.g. Gould) so there is nothing to think up, it just needs to be coded.

Another problem is that ties cannot be set for each particular note like beams. With beams, there is a "Beam together" or "Unbeam" command but there is nothing similar for ties.
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Old 10-08-2022, 11:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
It's a limitation. You don't need to convince me that your version is better -- I agree, and it's supported by a few centuries of notation tradition.

Which doesn't change my opinion that getting this detail right this isn't really what REAPER is for, and if you absolutely need to get it right, you should look for dedicated engraving software. There are numerous other limitations and problems in the MIDI Editor which IMO deserve more attention.
I don’t think that just accepting that reaper doesn’t work well because that’s just what reaper does is a plausible excuse for its faults. This is bare basics. Making things hard to read like this kinda questions should there be a notation editor there in the first place if it’s not even supposed to work like a notation editor does. Even if there are things that should be prioritized over this that’s not something the community should be worried about. It’s the developers who should steer their own work, they have the big picture.

Somehow it’s quite common in this forum to just accept Reaper’s quirks just because it’s Reaper. Like the bar for this software is lower than others. Sure, this opinion does get some legitimacy from Reaper’s price, so maybe we really shouldn’t expect Reaper’s tools and functions to work well, but accept that it’s always going to be a mess, and shell out some more money to a serious software if that’s what we need.

But if you care about the future of this DAW you shouldn’t just let it slip. This is a problem, no matter if there are more severe problems and even if it’s a problem in Reaper. We should at least acknowledge that.
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Old 10-08-2022, 11:58 AM   #23
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in any case, I allow myself to give my opinion because I know music theory.
Of course the developers have to decide the priorities themselves except that it is possible that he is not very skilled in music theory.
this problem, which I indicated at the beginning of the message, is, in my opinion (and I am certain of it), of maximum priority for the score editor. Apart from a handful of people, absolutely no one (and I say this with absolute certainty) will ever use the Score Editor with this kind of problem. If reaper's wish is to have a low-level editor, this is a policy that can be agreed and understood, but even a low-level score editor must be able to do the minimum, i.e. to put notes on a staff with the possibility of writing a correctly written rhythm (as all musicians accustomed to reading music know).
otherwise, the very existence of the score editor arises. What is it for apart from weighing down the reaper software?
In advance I apologize to people who use the score editor and who are happy with it and who would not like to see it disappear.
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Old 10-09-2022, 12:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youmaythinkitsme View Post
I don’t think that just accepting that reaper doesn’t work well because that’s just what reaper does is a plausible excuse for its faults. This is bare basics. Making things hard to read like this kinda questions should there be a notation editor there in the first place if it’s not even supposed to work like a notation editor does. Even if there are things that should be prioritized over this that’s not something the community should be worried about. It’s the developers who should steer their own work, they have the big picture.

Somehow it’s quite common in this forum to just accept Reaper’s quirks just because it’s Reaper. Like the bar for this software is lower than others. Sure, this opinion does get some legitimacy from Reaper’s price, so maybe we really shouldn’t expect Reaper’s tools and functions to work well, but accept that it’s always going to be a mess, and shell out some more money to a serious software if that’s what we need.

But if you care about the future of this DAW you shouldn’t just let it slip. This is a problem, no matter if there are more severe problems and even if it’s a problem in Reaper. We should at least acknowledge that.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not defending REAPER, and no doubt there are points that the dev team can improve. But I honestly believe that your expectations (and insistence) are inappropriate for a DAW. Any DAW.

Look at Logic, Cubase or Digital Performer as examples. They all provide a reference notation view, like REAPER, and they all get details wrong. This is not because they don't care, but because the underlying priorities of engraving software are quite different than those of a DAW. In particular, a DAW is optimized for accurate recording, editing and playback at a sample-accurate resolution. Music notation is precisely the opposite: it inaccurately displays the music so that it can be read. It's also primarily a graphic software, at least for many of the most important elements.

So can REAPER be better? Of course, but when a team of 10+ devs is building Dorico or Sibelius vs the 2 devs we have for all of REAPER... what REAPER _can_ do is already pretty useful. And if it isn't for you, there are so many options for music engraving software out there which use MIDI files or XML formats supported by REAPER, I don't know what the problem is anymore.

You can continue using a wrench to hammer nails, or you can buy a hammer.
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