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02-24-2014, 02:47 PM
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#121
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxm
I respectfully disagree. EVERY DAW borrows from other DAWS. I dont see how a creative tool is a bad thing!? We are here to make music after-all yes?
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Yes of course. But borrow just the FUNCTIONALITY, not the design affectations. We're need non-linear tools, not "a session view" for reaper.
Personally, the split screen design of live was what made it obnoxious to use. They could have at least made them separate windows, so you could potentially see them both at once. Dragging clips between separate views like that sucks and you can do a lot of the same things in either screen. It's too redundant.
Here's my point (feel free to disagree). Just saying "add a session view" to reaper glosses over the actual nature of the request, which is to add non-linear control to all "containers" (media items, MIDI items, regions etc) and stop discriminating among them. We don't need to "add a session view" do that. We just need to give the existing stuff a retooling to include the functionality we want.
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02-24-2014, 03:01 PM
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#122
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
Although...the more I think about it, it does start to sound better to just have both: a more integrated list like the ME Track list (with drag and drop, config columns etc) AND a colored grid matrix where you can trigger individual clips, groups of clips, or regions directly. Might be easier, coding-wise than a "transformer" window...
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It's great to see different ideas, but I don't think something like ME Track list would work. "Ableton style" matrix is much more convenient. In matrix you have fixed slots. And you can leave some slots empty between used slots. This is great because it helps to arrange items logically to "groups" according to your music. You can't do that in a list. It's also useful to align related items, that are supposed to play at the same time, on different tracks to same row (or column if the matrix is like in Bitwig). This is easy in matrix, impossible in list.
It is also important to support item editing directly in matrix. This is one clear adavantage of Live compared to for example Sonar. And in Reaper it means that a new wave editor view is needed for audio items. (Existing MIDI editor is good for editing MIDI items.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
Personally, the split screen design of live was what made it obnoxious to use. They could have at least made them separate windows, so you could potentially see them both at once.
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In Live 9.1 you can have the session view and arrange view in separate windows side-by-side visible at the same time.
jnif
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02-24-2014, 08:11 PM
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#123
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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The next step will be to create a really good mock up and combine ideas. and throw in a solid feature request. and not use the word ableton or live..
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02-24-2014, 08:16 PM
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#124
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
It's great to see different ideas, but I don't think something like ME Track list would work. "Ableton style" matrix is much more convenient. In matrix you have fixed slots. And you can leave some slots empty between used slots. This is great because it helps to arrange items logically to "groups" according to your music. You can't do that in a list. It's also useful to align related items, that are supposed to play at the same time, on different tracks to same row (or column if the matrix is like in Bitwig). This is easy in matrix, impossible in list.
It is also important to support item editing directly in matrix. This is one clear adavantage of Live compared to for example Sonar. And in Reaper it means that a new wave editor view is needed for audio items. (Existing MIDI editor is good for editing MIDI items.)
In Live 9.1 you can have the session view and arrange view in separate windows side-by-side visible at the same time.
jnif
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agreed
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02-25-2014, 07:07 AM
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#125
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
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broken link? what was this?
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02-26-2014, 08:23 AM
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#126
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
Another explanation, same idea:
What about having a track item list! This list will simply contain all items in that track. Very simple. How to use it. Together with another *action*. Copy selected item from track item list to time selection/loop/region. Finished. Simple and powerful.
One more variation of this idea:
Assign every item or first 36 items of the track to numbers 1..0 + a..z. Now same as above, some Mac Gyver *action* which will select and copy selected item to time selection/loop/region. Finished.
It is only a copy paste work, at the root.
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awesome. lets get some mock ups going?
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02-26-2014, 09:24 AM
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#127
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,754
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A simpler, rougher version of a session view is featured in EnergyXT2, and it can be worth checking it.
In fact, it is some kind of a "jam mode", where a looped zone is defined by markers. You can trigger markers with shortcuts and jam like this just like you would in Live.
The nice thing is that you can record what you do (basically, your real-time arrangement/playlist), and then tweak it later, just like Live's session/arrangement views (i don't know if my explanations are good ?).
I don't know if you can also record automations and things like that.
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02-26-2014, 10:46 AM
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#128
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
A simpler, rougher version of a session view is featured in EnergyXT2, and it can be worth checking it.
In fact, it is some kind of a "jam mode", where a looped zone is defined by markers. You can trigger markers with shortcuts and jam like this just like you would in Live.
The nice thing is that you can record what you do (basically, your real-time arrangement/playlist), and then tweak it later, just like Live's session/arrangement views (i don't know if my explanations are good ?).
I don't know if you can also record automations and things like that.
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i think the point of this is doing it in Reaper, otherwise you could just use Ableton and this thread would become obsolete
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02-26-2014, 01:23 PM
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#129
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmey
i think the point of this is doing it in Reaper, otherwise you could just use Ableton and this thread would become obsolete
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I think he meant that was an alternate way to implement it in reaper
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02-26-2014, 01:58 PM
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#130
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmey
i think the point of this is doing it in Reaper, otherwise you could just use Ableton and this thread would become obsolete
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???
Errrh, yes, quite obviously : i am a Reaper user, a Ext2 user, a Live9 user...
I don't understand why giving informations about a host would make other hosts obsolete ? There must be misunderstanding going on, obviously... To quote you " the point ot this" was to gather information about how other hosts deal with this. Several hosts do this already (Live, FL, Ext, Usine, etc), so I thought gathering ideas was a step forward.
Nevermind...
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02-26-2014, 01:59 PM
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#131
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_r
I think he meant that was an alternate way to implement it in reaper
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Yes, Todd, thank you. I think i was not clear at all.
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02-27-2014, 10:43 AM
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#132
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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Mock ups or it didn't happen
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02-27-2014, 10:52 AM
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#133
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 855
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I mocked one up, then laptop crashed with said mockup unsaved might quickly mock one up this evening
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02-27-2014, 12:53 PM
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#134
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_r
I mocked one up, then laptop crashed with said mockup unsaved might quickly mock one up this evening
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ahh man you totally mocked up! see what i did there...
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02-27-2014, 02:45 PM
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#135
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd_r
I mocked one up, then laptop crashed with said mockup unsaved might quickly mock one up this evening
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that sucks! please do if you have time.
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02-27-2014, 11:34 PM
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#136
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
Another explanation, same idea:
What about having a track item list! This list will simply contain all items in that track. Very simple.
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yea, simple as shit. what i been asking for since day one.
i'll take any goddamn list that filters items by track selection. ME Track List, Project Bay Media List, or anything else...
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03-02-2014, 01:43 PM
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#137
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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sound good to me
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03-03-2014, 06:18 AM
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#138
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2
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Bitwig
Unless this has been mentioned before, I suggest taking a look at Bitwig's screen layout. The 'trigger' or 'loop' section and the arranger can both be on the same screen at the same time, properly aligned with drag and drop between.
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03-28-2014, 01:36 AM
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#139
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artales
Unless this has been mentioned before, I suggest taking a look at Bitwig's screen layout. The 'trigger' or 'loop' section and the arranger can both be on the same screen at the same time, properly aligned with drag and drop between.
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Yes please, Bitwig style. +1
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03-28-2014, 01:55 AM
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#140
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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I do understand reaper as being a classical , linear daw. And being very good at it.
If I want to move into non-linear composition, why should I use the same tool ?
The workflow of reaper is optimised for linear recording and composition.
The workflow of ableton is optimised for non-linear recording and composition.
Both can be connected through rewire, if I need both.
Do not get me wrong, I am not a cubendo-style fanbot, who will say "if I do not like it or do not use it, you are obliged not to like or use it too "
But I never felt the need for having everything in one tool. The universal problem solver is yet to be invented. And I am more afraid of any degradation in functionality / usability in any specialised tool due to the compromises required to support two different paradigms.
Or , more simple : if I want ableton (or bitwig) I will buy it. If I want reaper (or ....) I will buy it.
But I want neither ableton to be a better reaper or reaper be a better ableton.
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03-28-2014, 04:52 AM
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#141
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Romania
Posts: 54
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You shouldn't, but others (me included) feel the need to use only one DAW.
I've tried working with multiple DAWs and it's cumbersome. When I create something I tend to do sound design and mixing as I go, at the same time with the composition – it's not feasible to do this using 2 apps and rewire, nor to do the basic stuff in e.g. Ableton then export everything as wave files and mix them in Reaper.
Furthermore, Reaper's midi editor is better than Ableton's, so it would mean to compose simple stuff in Reaper, import in Ableton, continue with the idea there, and lastly export back to Reaper. Too much of a hassle.
Clip triggering isn't (and shouldn't be considered) a dedicated tool of a separate program that should be kept to that specific program, but a now-becoming-standard concept that's being implemented in most software. Insisting in keeping REAPER a traditional linear (technically non-linear) software is senseless, since adding the feature will not affect the program (as long as one can hide the clip matrix, be it in the arranger, mixer, or dedicated window).
In regards to Bitwig, I've tested it and I'm quite tempted by it; it's main problems are lack of support for multiple I/O per plugin/track and lack of folder tracks / grouping.
__________________
What if Hitler played industrial? White noise.
'You!' said the Caterpillar contemptuously. 'Who are you?'
Seek for a place where the birds live forever...
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03-28-2014, 04:57 AM
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#142
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Romania
Posts: 54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink99
But I want neither ableton to be a better reaper or reaper be a better ableton.
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What you want does not mean it's the best for the program, or for the rest of the user community; it might be better for Reaper (and its devs) if it was a better Ableton (without destroying current workflow possibilities).
__________________
What if Hitler played industrial? White noise.
'You!' said the Caterpillar contemptuously. 'Who are you?'
Seek for a place where the birds live forever...
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03-28-2014, 01:19 PM
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#143
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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Hi susceptor
I see we have clearly shown the differences between linear and non linear arrangement (not talking about technology) , your approach will not work in the environment I have set up for my style of music, and vice versa. This does not mean, anyone of us is "right" or "wrong" or doing "better" or "worse"
As long as my style of working will not be disrupted by any feature that is required for the nl approach, I am fine with that, and this might even give me some additional possibilities.
I often start songs in ableton, in the linear mode (I never really used the clip mode even in ableton) to layout a sketch of a musical idea. When this idea has reached a certain level of getting close to my intention, I save this track and restart ableton , now as a rewire slave in reaper.
This is where I add the more sophisticated real and virtual instruments, replace certain prefab loops with real instruments.....
The final cleanup will then be, bouncing the remaining ableton tracks (if there were any left) and close ableton. Then there is the detail work with outbound fx, smallest changes, automation and so on.
Last stage is downmix to 2 ch, load another reaper template (for mastering) and do the premastering. When I am lazy I even use wavosaur for this last step.
Therefore I am used to having several tools contributing to one project, and have requirements for several features , that are completely useless for other approaches, eg when you do several tasks as one which are clearly separated for me.
Reaper is one the best daws for this kind of workflow (which in fact is inspired by the ableton-logic-protools workflow in some studios) but there are bugs and missing features in reaper that will not have any importance for other approaches and ways to use reaper , so the best does not mean perfect.
Cubase could have been (from their understanding some years ago) the logical choice for this approach, but they messed up when they moved towards the "all under one hood" approach, and though the reaper devs are far more competent than the steinies, I am a little bit afraid, that a similar nor fish nor flesh might become of reaper as it became of cubase.
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03-28-2014, 05:59 PM
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#144
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artales
Unless this has been mentioned before, I suggest taking a look at Bitwig's screen layout. The 'trigger' or 'loop' section and the arranger can both be on the same screen at the same time, properly aligned with drag and drop between.
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Yes, don't copy Live, copy Bitwig!
The way the Launcher can be docked with the arrangement page and the way it shows scenes (a bit like regions) vertically is quite smart as it's probably more natural than Live's horizontal scenes for most.
Some may think this is merely an advanced region player, which has some validity when working backwards from an already linear arrangement, but the major advantage of a Session View/Launcher is started from nothing, and seamlessly building all the song parts, and THEN transferring all of those parts in a creative way into an arrangement.
This article gives a great overview on Bitwig's Launcher and how it builds on what was introduced in Live:
http://bitwigtutorials.net/tutorials...-launcher.html
Quote:
What else we DON'T need:
1. To copy ableton!
2. A separate view. A screen full of item "cells," is an unecessary waste of space. They are already easy to edit (Double clicking items in the Arrangement opens them in the Editor and clicking on them once in the Track List of the MIDI Editor also makes them editable).
3. Another "matrix" or "manager" window. We can smooth seek to 40 different regions directly with actions or by selecting regions in the SWS Marker list during playback. We can even use "save live output to disk" to record the performance.
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I disagree.
I want these things. If anyone doesn't want a clip matrix, they don't have to use it. I'm sure there would be a checkbox in the view menu and the issue is solved. Or have it docked but not visible. Many others actually want a full Session View/Launcher and may have a different use for it.
There are already many subjective "wastes of space" in Reaper (i.e windows I don't personally use often) with much less utility than a Session View window, so let's not reinvent the wheel and make it square.
This is an important feature a lot of people have requested for years, so it should be made properly. Without the usability and workflow aspects being correct, it just ends up as feature no one uses because it requires hacks, workarounds, custom actions, extensions and a degree in "Reaperology" to work, when the whole point is supposed to be a seamless and inspiring way to make music without any of those things...
__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
Last edited by PitchSlap; 03-29-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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03-28-2014, 06:23 PM
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#145
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 442
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A non linear environment like bitwig clip launcher will be killer in Reaper...it is reaaaally good to bring up ideas and ispiration. Of course it should be dockable, so you can hide it if you don't need it.
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03-30-2014, 02:54 PM
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#146
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Romania
Posts: 54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinlud
A non linear environment like bitwig clip launcher will be killer in Reaper...it is reaaaally good to bring up ideas and ispiration. Of course it should be dockable, so you can hide it if you don't need it.
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IMHO the TCP should be dockable as well.
Speaking of Bitwig, I've been demoing it for the last few days and to me it has the best GUI and workflow (sans routing style) out of the box and I really enjoyed this – while Reaper is really configurable and now it suits me perfectly in some areas, it's because I invested time in making it "my own". I still love Reaper and it's my main choice for mastering and surround work, but for everything else I'm considering using Bitwig, IF they solve the lack of routing options, bugs, and performance issues (and some small details)...
__________________
What if Hitler played industrial? White noise.
'You!' said the Caterpillar contemptuously. 'Who are you?'
Seek for a place where the birds live forever...
Last edited by Susceptor; 03-31-2014 at 01:29 AM.
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04-01-2014, 06:47 AM
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#147
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,598
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and really.. it's not copying Live or Bitwig. it's all about adding a Feature. if anything.. they copied project 5.
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04-02-2014, 01:18 AM
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#148
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memyselfandus
and really.. it's not copying Live or Bitwig. it's all about adding a Feature. if anything.. they copied project 5.
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I think you must have seen the the project 5 img comparison in other forums in order for you to say this.
Live is the first program to have a clip launcher/clip matrix/session view. When project 5 tried to introduce a clip launcher it was a few years after Ableton Live was already out. Ableton Live has been around for 13 years now.
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04-02-2014, 04:22 PM
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#149
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap
so let's not reinvent the wheel and make it square.
This is an important feature a lot of people have requested for years, so it should be made properly. Without the usability and workflow aspects being correct, it just ends up as feature no one uses because it requires hacks, workarounds, custom actions, extensions and a degree in "Reaperology"
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i'm not saying we don't need the feature. i'm saying the core functionality (nonlinear triggering of items) can be integrated into one of the existing item lists. we have many item lists already, which are all somewhat lacking in flexibility and integration.
i don't personally want to wait 3 years for some heavy, new, possibly incomplete feature to get worked up for everyone who is already used to ableton when we could have it NOW.
a trigger matrix would be cool, but i'd rather use hardware for that, so i'd just like to get some simple item triggering for now.
we have marker actions, something like that for items would cover most of what session view does (apart from a centralized gui).
fine if you disagree, but understand we are not at odds. i'm thinking how we can approach it differently and still have the same possibilities.
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07-15-2014, 04:48 PM
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#150
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
i'm not saying we don't need the feature. i'm saying the core functionality (nonlinear triggering of items) can be integrated into one of the existing item lists. we have many item lists already, which are all somewhat lacking in flexibility and integration.
i don't personally want to wait 3 years for some heavy, new, possibly incomplete feature to get worked up for everyone who is already used to ableton when we could have it NOW.
a trigger matrix would be cool, but i'd rather use hardware for that, so i'd just like to get some simple item triggering for now.
we have marker actions, something like that for items would cover most of what session view does (apart from a centralized gui).
fine if you disagree, but understand we are not at odds. i'm thinking how we can approach it differently and still have the same possibilities.
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I think one of the big aspects that makes a simple trigger system not enough, is that in live the clip launcher operates while ignoring the arrange timeline. That is, if you trigger a clip in the bass track, but arrange timeline already has some clips there, the program disables the clips in the arrange view and only plays the one you triggered in session view.
This way you can introduce and remove elements on a whim (sorta like auditioning a clip with the rest of the mix), while keeping time and not just adding a layer that perhaps may clash with the current arrangement.
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07-16-2014, 07:54 AM
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#151
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 442
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a docked window with a matrix where is possible to play/record/drag&drop clips in non-linear mode (while arrange is playing in linear mode) will be so awesome in Reaper....
..but i have the fear that devs hate ableton live. just a presentiment xD
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07-16-2014, 02:11 PM
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#152
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
We can call this feature shortly: exclusive playback. Or item solo, if you want, solo among items, not tracks. So, what Ableton Live = Krüppelmididaw does is item soloing between session-clips and arrangement-clips, i.e. among two clips.
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Yeah that is a very concise and accurate term for this functionality. I like it. Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by spinlud
a docked window with a matrix where is possible to play/record/drag&drop clips in non-linear mode (while arrange is playing in linear mode) will be so awesome in Reaper....
..but i have the fear that devs hate ableton live. just a presentiment xD
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I think you might be right about the ableton hate. They don't like the adaptive grid snapping feature request either! Haha
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07-16-2014, 02:58 PM
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#153
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
Reaper has so many similar functionality already built in, for example: With actions you can switch among items in a directory, next, previous, randomly. You can organize your files/items in directories and use those as your clip matrix. Another song/scene, simply replace the entire directory for your new set of items. Alone this feature is more powerful than the session view of Krüppelmididaw, in my opinion. Nobody needs a matrix as a gui. Mouseovering, three buttons for previous,random,next.
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I think it's more the fact that these things require actions and special attention of the user in order to produce the same results.
In ableton the session view with it's clip triggering system doesn't require you to do anything special.
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07-17-2014, 12:14 PM
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#154
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
Example: Make a performance directory, inside 100 subdirs, named 00..99. Those are our 'tracks'. Into each track-dir, drop files, named let us say, with fixed names, e.g. a..z, so 26 files per dir.
You could start typing, 00,a and it would select this item. Simple and good. Who cares of session matrix?
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There is not a simpler structure than a matrix for a non linear workflow imho
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11-01-2014, 02:46 AM
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#155
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 603
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My idea about implementing Ableton session view :
1) ITEM SLOTS & TRACK SLOTS
- set selected item to item slot (n)
- set selected track to track slot (x)
- trigger item slot (n) from track slot (x)
- trigger item slot (n) from track slot (x) (sync with next measure)
2) Add "Sync with next beat", "Sync with next grid" options,too ? (also for media slots that currently we have)
3) Change the color of triggered item to a specific color, and then change the color back to the original when item playback stops
If we have those actions, I think that would be a kind of solution for ableton session view requests. Users visually can see their clips(items) on Reaper and trigger those clips as the play cursor moves.Users can use different tracks to trigger clips(items) to use different automation, fx needs.
Lets say you have 8 tracks and put all your items across tracks between 1-64 measures. After the 64th measure,you start your session.As the playback cursor moves you trigger those items between 1-64th measures. Those items's colors change as they triggered.Trigger items from different tracks for extra automation and fx needs.
Thanks...
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11-08-2014, 05:58 PM
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#156
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,184
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I just announced Playtime, a Session View for REAPER. Have a look here.
Ben
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11-10-2014, 12:57 AM
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#157
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,754
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+10 for native implementation of Playtime into Reaper !
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12-28-2016, 01:02 PM
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#158
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,252
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@TonE - Yes it's a very good idea. So good in fact that I suggested it myself at least 5 years ago and was definitely not the first to do so.
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09-14-2017, 03:39 PM
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#159
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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Is this not possible to implement in reaper?
Maybe the some people don't like the idea but would they have to use it?
I really think its time to add this feature. This is the one request that is holding a lot of people back from buying reaper or using it full-time.
Please add this feature. Or maybe give us a reason why it will not be added and let us know if you have no intention to add it ever so we can move on.
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02-01-2019, 08:26 PM
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#160
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
+10 for native implementation of Playtime into Reaper !
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sounds good!
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