Old 03-04-2010, 03:44 AM   #1
Audiomax
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Default NI Alicia Keys anyone?

Wondering if anyone has tried this new piano from NI? The ad claims it's the piano of a quote 'icon'. A few cd's doesn't make an icon in my view and I personally wouldn't consider this artist an icon, so it smacks of marketing crap. I bought the NI Berlin Grand and for me it was a bit of a dissapointment compared to the Garritan Steinway and pales in comparison. I'm always on the lookout for a good piano sample but cautious now about buying anything that doesn't let you demo it.

Be interested to hear if anyone is using it succesfully for tracking and whether you get the option to change the gooey coloured interface.

Max.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:09 AM   #2
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PASS!

But she did sell 10 000 000 albums off of basically 1 song!

And yes, it is marketing hype.

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Wondering if anyone has tried this new piano from NI? The ad claims it's the piano of a quote 'icon'. A few cd's doesn't make an icon in my view and I personally wouldn't consider this artist an icon, so it smacks of marketing crap. I bought the NI Berlin Grand and for me it was a bit of a dissapointment compared to the Garritan Steinway and pales in comparison. I'm always on the lookout for a good piano sample but cautious now about buying anything that doesn't let you demo it.

Be interested to hear if anyone is using it succesfully for tracking and whether you get the option to change the gooey coloured interface.

Max.
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:08 PM   #3
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Native instruments' Akoustik piano had all sorts of issues with it. it had some promise but i had so many problems with it. i'm not sure i'd trust another piano from them. so i'm not gonna bite. although it's probably the yamaha C7 piano, which is a nice sounding piano i find, it's my favorite one.

but ya, alicia keys is not really an icon either. I thought though that her first album was really good and she had written quite a few good songs in and around there. but her subsequent albums, i thought were nowhere near as good.
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:16 PM   #4
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NI must be desperate.. I belive this is their first and worst marketing scheme...
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:31 PM   #5
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Alica Keys has played with Gil Scott-Heron. There's no way I could ever possibly diss her.

Hey Sound asleep - do you know you can play your Akoustik Piano libraries in Kontakt/Kontakt Player? It works way better than using the plugin ever did.
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:18 PM   #6
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Thanks to everyone who replied with advice, looks like I'll definitley pass on this one.

Cheers,
Max.
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Old 03-04-2010, 03:53 PM   #7
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Alica Keys has played with Gil Scott-Heron. There's no way I could ever possibly diss her.
Really? That's good enough for me too!

Max: Have you tried CVPiano? I'm a piano player, and this has become about my favorite. Plus it's free. But then again, I was raised around old spinets and uprights, and any virtual piano that actually stays in tune still blows my fuzzy little mind.

I like CVP better than the GPO Steinway, the grands that came with the earlier versions of Kontakt, and the onboard output of my Yamaha P120. I can't compare it with the ultra-pricey stuff, which I've never had.
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Old 03-04-2010, 05:50 PM   #8
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Have you tried CVPiano? I'm a piano player, and this has become about my favorite.
I wasn't aware of that one, big thanks for the tip! Not a piano player myself, but nonetheless I've been on the lookout for a really good free piano and the sampled ones (like the Maestro grand) have always struck me as a little too bulky considering I only use piano occasionally, and for non-solo stuff. This is a great free instrument, I'm surprised it doesn't get mentioned more often.
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:06 PM   #9
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i used to use cvpiano but one too many crashes recently resulted in uninstallation for me. i just use a few good soundfonts in shortcircuit now. i do miss cv though - lots of ways to tweak the sound.
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:27 PM   #10
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....But then again, I was raised around old spinets and uprights, and any virtual piano that actually stays in tune still blows my fuzzy little mind.

Funny you'd bring that up.
I too was raised with uprights and spinets.
In fact, still have our tiny wurlitzer spinet here in the living room - the one I took the bulk of lessons on as a kid.
It's horribly out of tune. A full step in some places.
Virtual pianos always in tune - yup! Always catches my attention as well. In fact, it almost seems like something is broken, lol.

Sadly, the tuner-guy said I'd have to bring up our little spinet in two sessions because it's so flat. Time to let the strings settle? From my experience that's a waste of time.
I need to learn how to do it myself. Save a couple hundred bucks.

Thanks all for mentioning other virtual pianos as well. Making notes here.
I'll have to pass on the KEYS piano though. Too much dough when I have a couple nice freebies?




Jim P.





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Old 03-04-2010, 06:54 PM   #11
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Really? That's good enough for me too!
As far as I know, it's just been a one-off performance. I'd love to hear them work together on a full album.
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by JasonSpatola View Post
Alica Keys has played with Gil Scott-Heron. There's no way I could ever possibly diss her.

Hey Sound asleep - do you know you can play your Akoustik Piano libraries in Kontakt/Kontakt Player? It works way better than using the plugin ever did.
ya, i've tried that, and it was better for me, but still at times i get the same problems.
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:44 PM   #13
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I'm a classical pianist myself and I've tried most of the sampled pianos out there. Believe it or not, the NI "Concert D" Akoustik piano is my go-to. I've always liked it better than Ivory. And I've never had any issues with it. Of course I just load it plain, disabling all the built-in halls and effects, I throw on my own effects in Reaper.

That said, I am seriously impressed with the sound of the Eastwest B÷sendorfer 290, Play edition (now part of the ~$500 Pianos package). That is one terrific sounding virtual instrument. <rant> Unfortunately, I detest iLok and refuse to pay for another product that imposes those kinds of limitations on me. Once was enough and that was the last one for me. If I'm the one paying, why should I be punished with a freaking ankle bracelet like a DUI offender or parolee under house arrest? I would even consider paying $100 more if they just removed the iLok requirement... but that will never happen. </rant> Anyway, it sure sounds fine, so check it out (if you don't mind iLok).
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:11 PM   #14
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i'm not sure how much of this is a marketing technique. i think alicia keys just wanted to have her piano sampled so she could have a VST of her own Yamaha C3. so she had this done with NI and also sold it with her name on it since it's her thing.

specs wise this VST actually looks pretty good. the NI range i don't think has any Yamaha pianos in it, and i personally love the sound of the yamaha pianos. so ya, i'd feel like a dink with alicia's keys VST loaded up, but it actually might be a quite awesome VST to have. one thing that looks quite cool too is the convolution reverb not sure exactly how that's supposed to work but it sounds interesting.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:45 PM   #15
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I'm a classical pianist myself and I've tried most of the sampled pianos out there. Believe it or not, the NI "Concert D" Akoustik piano is my go-to. I've always liked it better than Ivory. And I've never had any issues with it. Of course I just load it plain, disabling all the built-in halls and effects, I throw on my own effects in Reaper.

That said, I am seriously impressed with the sound of the Eastwest B÷sendorfer 290, Play edition (now part of the ~$500 Pianos package). That is one terrific sounding virtual instrument. <rant> Unfortunately, I detest iLok and refuse to pay for another product that imposes those kinds of limitations on me. Once was enough and that was the last one for me. If I'm the one paying, why should I be punished with a freaking ankle bracelet like a DUI offender or parolee under house arrest? I would even consider paying $100 more if they just removed the iLok requirement... but that will never happen. </rant> Anyway, it sure sounds fine, so check it out (if you don't mind iLok).
Which is why I bought the Garritan steinway pro. the new V1.04 is the best sampled piano I've played and the copy protection is very unintrusive.
I'm also a classicaly trained royal school of music pianist.

MC
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:49 PM   #16
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Unfortunately, I detest iLok and refuse to pay for another product that imposes those kinds of limitations on me.
Amen. This is the #1 reason I'm not using ProTools right now. I had a big rant about copy protection here but I didn't want to jack another thread. =D Suffice it to say, Cockos has my $60 (and hopefully another $185 on the way if my business takes off) because they *don't* treat me like a criminal, even if I "evaluated" Reaper a bit longer than I was supposed to.
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:34 AM   #17
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Have you tried CVPiano?
I just downloaded and installed that one, thanks! Only thing is, it doesn't seem to recognise my midi in. I mean, my presses on the keyboard show up in the track meter, but there is no audio. But if I click my mouse on the keys on the graphical interface, I can hear it just fine. What am I missing here?
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:16 AM   #18
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Thanks obijohn and everyone else,

I know the Bosendorfer 290 would sound very nice, the Bose is one of the best sounding pianos of all time but I too avoid ilok like the plauge. The CV Piano sounds interesting but seems some people are finding it troublesome, maybe it needs some maintenance to bring it up to date. I love the XSample Steinway 'B', it has a ton of character and it's probably my favourite sampled piano at this stage. I also use the Garritan Steinway and it's ok but I've really yet to hear anything that has the dynamics of a real grand. I've played real pianos for years so I know how a real piano sounds and responds. I mean when you thump a piano it should sound like you are thumping a piano, not like it has a massive amount of limiting on it as it runs out of it's own head room (if you know what I mean). None of the sampled pianos out there (to my ears) have anywhere near the dynamics needed to emulate a real piano. And I'm not just talking about volume here I'm talking about the huge harmonic content of a piano when it is really played in earnest.

I don't want to sound like I'm ungrateful to developers, but I'm quite tired of hearing inadequate sounding demos that don't really give the particular sampled piano a run for it's money, but instead go the safe route of highlighting strengths of that particular sample to entice you to buy it. Maybe one day there will be someone with the knowledge and expertise who can deliver on the holy grail of sampled piano, but one thing for sure is we're quite a way from it at this point. I think the only route for serious writers and musicians at this stage is to get the best sampled piano they can find to track with and then go into the studio and overdub the best real keys their budget can afford.



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Old 03-05-2010, 02:17 AM   #19
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I just downloaded and installed that one, thanks! Only thing is, it doesn't seem to recognise my midi in. I mean, my presses on the keyboard show up in the track meter, but there is no audio. But if I click my mouse on the keys on the graphical interface, I can hear it just fine. What am I missing here?

That's strange. The CVP UI has 16 channels. Are you sure you have the right midi channel loaded and the Reaper track I/O routed correctly? In short, have you rounded up the usual suspects?

I'm only asking because every so often I load a VSTi and get no sound, but it's virtually always because I've spaced out something obvious, and have the chain routed wrong, or have another track soloed or a mute button pressed- something silly like that.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:29 AM   #20
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Ahh! cvpiano. I did try this one ages ago but I was put off because it had stability issues. As I remember it sounded nice, but even if it was stable I still probably wouldn't use it over what I have at present.

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Old 03-05-2010, 04:11 AM   #21
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guys, this piano has been sampled by mr. thomas skarbye - scarbee - who has done the most wonderful rhodes, wurlitzer and clavinet samples on earth (also dsitributed by NI now, because scarbee want to concentrate on sampling, not on selling).

that's why i will get it. it's bound to be excellent.

so far i use arvista virtual grand piano, which is very nice. but scarbee rhodes with a good master keyboard like a clavia stage or a doepfer is actually better than most real rhodes, because it's well maintained, in tune, responds well to dynamics and has every nuance of the real instrument. it's a perfect rhodes. most real rhodes pianos around aren't.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:32 AM   #22
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but the interface is pink
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:48 AM   #23
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No sampled piano can come close to the feel of Pianoteq 3.


So, major pass for me.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:57 AM   #24
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Has anyone tried Imperfect Samples? (www.imperfectsamples.com)
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:36 AM   #25
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No sampled piano can come close to the feel of Pianoteq 3.
don't buy technology hype. try things out and make your decisions.

e.g. lounge lizard 3 is fun, but when it comes to real rhodes, scarbee is much more detailed and natural.


i don't like pink either (-8=

i'll try to throw away the skin if possible, to get back to the default grey. or else i'll just make a track preset once and keep the GUI shut from then on.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:57 AM   #26
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Really? That's good enough for me too!

Max: Have you tried CVPiano? I'm a piano player, and this has become about my favorite. Plus it's free. But then again, I was raised around old spinets and uprights, and any virtual piano that actually stays in tune still blows my fuzzy little mind.

I like CVP better than the GPO Steinway, the grands that came with the earlier versions of Kontakt, and the onboard output of my Yamaha P120. I can't compare it with the ultra-pricey stuff, which I've never had.
any trick to using this piano it loaded once in reaper but has crashed it everytime since
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Old 03-05-2010, 03:00 PM   #27
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Actually I'm gonna throw in a vote for Pianoteq myself... My keyboard player turned me on to it and it is fantastic. Less RAM than samples, a shitload of CPU, but an absolutely pristine piano simulation.
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:18 PM   #28
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don't buy technology hype. try things out and make your decisions.
Tried a lot of sampled pianos. Tossed them in the bin. Since Pianoteq nothing's the same, nor it will ever be. I'm not "buying the technology hype". I know what I'm talking about.

It's not even CPU intensive, especially if you have a quadcore. It uses multicores amazingly well.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:11 PM   #29
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That's strange. The CVP UI has 16 channels. Are you sure you have the right midi channel loaded and the Reaper track I/O routed correctly? In short, have you rounded up the usual suspects?

I'm only asking because every so often I load a VSTi and get no sound, but it's virtually always because I've spaced out something obvious, and have the chain routed wrong, or have another track soloed or a mute button pressed- something silly like that.
Thanks for your response, Quasar.

Yep, I'm pretty sure I have ticked off all the obvious possibilities. As I said, the midi activity is showing up in the VU meter for the track, so it is obviously routing from my keyboard into the Reaper track containing CVP OK. The audio works fine if I mouse click on the GVPs GUI keyboard. Very odd.

But it just got curiouser and curiouser. I just discovered that after a short period of complete inactivity (while I was looking through the manual for something) the Reaper project (with nothing but CVP in it) completely locks up! WTF??

Maybe something's just got a bit corrupt on my system somewhere, but it's hard to know where to start looking. Other VSTi's are all working just fine for me - it's just CVP that isn't (and yes, I've tried un and re-installing it).

All a bit frustrating as I have really been looking forward to trying this one out after all the positive comments I've been reading here. Any more ideas? Anyone??

PS... almost forgot to mention. I have the same problem of CVP not responding to the midi from my keyboard in standalone mode... so it's not a Reaper issue. I check the midi in and there is only one option - my Echo Layla - as it should be. And yet, again, I know the interface is working fine because it's working with everything else I've tried it with.

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Old 03-05-2010, 05:49 PM   #30
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Tried a lot of sampled pianos. Tossed them in the bin. Since Pianoteq nothing's the same, nor it will ever be. I'm not "buying the technology hype". I know what I'm talking about.

It's not even CPU intensive, especially if you have a quadcore. It uses multicores amazingly well.
Sorry, but modeled pianos don't come do it for me. I've got Pianoteq 3 and TruePianos. Neither one has nearly the accurate response I'm looking for (as in "those are real HAMMERS smashing away" or "listen to that quiet felt settling on the strings"). Seven or 8 years ago, sampled pianos weren't satisfying for me either. But not anymore.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:09 PM   #31
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Sorry, but modeled pianos don't come do it for me. I've got Pianoteq 3 and TruePianos. Neither one has nearly the accurate response I'm looking for (as in "those are real HAMMERS smashing away" or "listen to that quiet felt settling on the strings"). Seven or 8 years ago, sampled pianos weren't satisfying for me either. But not anymore.
I have to agree with obijohn here. Modelled pianos don't sound real to me, they seem to sound well.... modelled, like they're trying too hard to emulate a real piano instead of being one. Don't get me wrong just like an electric grand they can sound perfect for some genre's, but when it comes to sounding like a real acoustic piano it's just not there for me. The other thing is they don't seem to have much individual character, I could be listening to anything. For example if I want a rock piano I'll want a Steinway B or a Bosendorfer, if I'm looking for a classical piano I'll go Steinway C or D, or contemporary country the same (these are just generalisations). But I know what I'm looking for and the piano suits the genre. With the modelled pianos they are technically correct but I just don't hear the character. There are a lot of piano samples out there but not all will suit what you may be trying to acheive creatively, so there is never going to be 'one size fits all' anyway.

I wouldn't mind hearing the Kontakt Acoustik D obijohn prefers but I got Kontakt after that series was discontinued and (as I understand) it's no longer available.

Cheers,
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:01 PM   #32
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Well, let's just agree to disagree. Sampled pianos sound disconnected to me, they aren't responding as I want them to. Not to mention lack of una corda and PROPER sympathetic resonances on 98% of them, OR the lack of proper continuous sustain pedalling. If a "piano" doesn't have those two things, then it can't be considered a piano. It can be considered a poor facsimile of one.

On the other hand, modelled piano like Pianoteq has all of the above IMPORTANT aspects of piano sound done flawlessly. And that's what's important to me.

Not to mention endless tweakability you will never get with samples. If you don't like the way hammers sound, you can harden or soften them, and in Pianoteq Pro you can even do it per key. As well as 21 other physical parameters. There is no way you can't get the sound you want.


And oh yes, there IS a lot of character there.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:03 PM   #33
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I've never tried pianoteq, but other modelled pianos i've tried are good. but since they are not actually based on physical objects, they don't have the same kind of character real; pianos have. for example, the strings affect how the hammer sounds, and the hammer how the strings reverberate and stuff like that.

i find sampled pianos have become really good, with all the hammer sounds and everything and the sympathetic resonnance i find is very good, and i find the sustain acts very much like a real piano, except maybe how it cuts out the piano sometimes. idk, it's hard to explain but i've had issues with sustain pedals on sampled pianos before, but not in length of sustain i find that very natural.

i'm willing to bet that this alicia keys piano will be very good also, with the convolution reverb and everything. very close to playing a real piano if you have a good weighted keyboard. the only thing is, it might have NI issues with it. but likely the sound is really good. and i really like Yamaha pianos.

with modelled pianos, they can't really simulated a specific piano properly i find, so they kind of are a generic piano sound. which doesn't sound bad, but with a sampled piano if they sample a yamaha, you get how those hammers sound at all the velocities and how the strings resonate at all the velocities and stuff like that. really an organic sound. i love the attack on yamaha pianos. boesendorfer have a real muted attack i find, which i prefer less to the clean crisp attack of yamahas.

and i find modelled pianos don't really have this kind of soul, because they are not an object of certain properties used in different ways or at different velocities uncovering its personal character.

customizable i'm sure, and sounding good i'm sure also, good on resources ya i believe that as well. but imo for simulating the feel of playing a real quality piano, they're not quite there.

but like i said i never tried the pianoteq 3 pianos. the akoustik pianos i find sound really nice, what sucks is for me, how they behave in DAWs. even through kontakt4.

to be honest i think alot of the sampled pianos nowadays, you'd be real hardup to tell that they are not real on a recording. live sure you could tell because a live piano is a live piano, but on a recording. i don't think i'd be able to tell the difference.
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:48 PM   #34
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I hear what your saying EvilDragon.

When it comes down to it it's a matter of what works for you. I think it's accurate to say that most (if not all) members of this forum are here because we're wanting to achieve certain artistic objectives in one way or another. I'm certainly not going to bag anyone for using whatever they see fit to acheive those objectives, reagardless of what I personally think or need.

I have to say it's great to be part of a forum where the members have the maturity to (as you say) "agree to disagree".

Cheers,
Max.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:05 PM   #35
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To the OP, you don't think Alicia Keys is a Icon? .....wow lol

I don't really need a whole vst just for pianos, so i'll pass.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:10 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Audiomax View Post
Thanks obijohn and everyone else,

I know the Bosendorfer 290 would sound very nice, the Bose is one of the best sounding pianos of all time but I too avoid ilok like the plauge. The CV Piano sounds interesting but seems some people are finding it troublesome, maybe it needs some maintenance to bring it up to date. I love the XSample Steinway 'B', it has a ton of character and it's probably my favourite sampled piano at this stage. I also use the Garritan Steinway and it's ok but I've really yet to hear anything that has the dynamics of a real grand. I've played real pianos for years so I know how a real piano sounds and responds. I mean when you thump a piano it should sound like you are thumping a piano, not like it has a massive amount of limiting on it as it runs out of it's own head room (if you know what I mean). None of the sampled pianos out there (to my ears) have anywhere near the dynamics needed to emulate a real piano. And I'm not just talking about volume here I'm talking about the huge harmonic content of a piano when it is really played in earnest.

I don't want to sound like I'm ungrateful to developers, but I'm quite tired of hearing inadequate sounding demos that don't really give the particular sampled piano a run for it's money, but instead go the safe route of highlighting strengths of that particular sample to entice you to buy it. Maybe one day there will be someone with the knowledge and expertise who can deliver on the holy grail of sampled piano, but one thing for sure is we're quite a way from it at this point. I think the only route for serious writers and musicians at this stage is to get the best sampled piano they can find to track with and then go into the studio and overdub the best real keys their budget can afford.



Cheers,
Max.
I'm not certain that this is a valid criticism.

I know what you mean about a real piano. I know what they sound like.

But what does a recording of that real piano sound like?
How often do you hear a recording of a real piano that sounds like the real piano.
The recording process has an impact on the sound.

And a sampled piano is a recorded piano.

So, how different from the recording of a real piano is the sound of a well sampled piano?
That is the comparison, unless you plan to use the samples piano live instead of a real piano.
Then there is no contest.

I agree about the harmonic content.

Samples of independent notes don't interact with sympathetic vibrations like a real piano does when multiple notes are sounding.

I can see this as an issue for solo piano.
I don't know if it matters that much on a practical level when the piano is in a mix.

Last edited by PAPT; 03-05-2010 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:08 AM   #37
Audiomax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
I'm not certain that this is a valid criticism.

I know what you mean about a real piano. I know what they sound like.

But what does a recording of that real piano sound like?
How often do you hear a recording of a real piano that sounds like the real piano.
The recording process has an impact on the sound.

And a sampled piano is a recorded piano.

So, how different from the recording of a real piano is the sound of a well sampled piano?
That is the comparison, unless you plan to use the samples piano live instead of a real piano.
Then there is no contest.

I agree about the harmonic content.

Samples of independent notes don't interact with sympathetic vibrations like a real piano does when multiple notes are sounding.

I can see this as an issue for solo piano.
I don't know if it matters that much on a practical level when the piano is in a mix.

But what does a recording of that real piano sound like?

Well, it will sound like anything you want it to sound like depending on how you record it of course. But if you want it to sound like a classic Steinway B recorded on the Yellow Brick Road sessions or a grand recorded on any one of the Ray charles albums (take you're pick) you've got no show of doing it with current sampled pianos. They just won't cut it neither in playability or sound, simple as that. Point me to an album that has sampled piano that sounds like a convincing well recorded acoustic such as on these sessions and I'll be an instant believer.

What I'm talking about is not having to struggle to get a good sound. Take for example Slate Drums, I know when I need a rock snare I just load any one up in Kontakt and whammo instant well recorded snare that sits perefecly in the mix and takes it to whole other level, it's just a matter of picking which one of any number of perfectly sampled snares I want to use. No mucking around with eq or any of that crap, it just works. That's what I'd expect from a well sampled piano and presently there are only few that come close, and none that nail it.


And sorry Majesty29, to say Keys has risen to the status of icon in the general musical culture of today to me is stretching it. Talented artist yes, icon definitely not. It wouldn't be too hard to find someone who agrees on that, but on this I will take EvilDragon's lead and agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Max.

Last edited by Audiomax; 03-06-2010 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:27 AM   #38
PAPT
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"And sorry PAPT, to say Keys has risen to the status of icon in the general musical culture of today to me is stretching it. Talented artist yes, icon definitely not. It wouldn't be too hard to find someone who agrees on that, but on this I will take EvilDragon's lead and agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Max. "
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I never mentioned her or claimed that she had risen to icon status.
You confuse me with someone else.
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:30 AM   #39
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Alicia Keys is a talented performer. Icon though? I have a very hard time describing anyone who's risen to prominence in the last decade as an "icon." First off, their music hasn't had to stand the test of time yet. Second off, it really doesn't take one-in-a-million talent to sell a million records anymore. Record companies realized years ago that instead of searching every nook and cranny for world-class talent, they could grab just about anybody off the street and market them into success. Hell, the entire reason American Idol works is because people with enough talent to perform at the national level are ubiquitous enough that you can keep coming back year after year and still put an entertaining group of people on the stage.
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Old 03-06-2010, 02:05 AM   #40
Audiomax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
"And sorry PAPT, to say Keys has risen to the status of icon in the general musical culture of today to me is stretching it. Talented artist yes, icon definitely not. It wouldn't be too hard to find someone who agrees on that, but on this I will take EvilDragon's lead and agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Max. "
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I never mentioned her or claimed that she had risen to icon status.
You confuse me with someone else.

My sincere apologies PAPT,

The above should have been addressed to Majesty29. This has now been amended in the original post.


Cheers,
Max.
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