Reaper Program Change does not affect Halion VST3i

[thomas0906]

I just can't manage to send a Program Change command from Reaper to Halion VST3i (Halion7.1, Halion Sonic 3 SE). The command is displayed in the Reaper Midi Monitor. It also arrives in the downstream Halion (the MIDI input light flashes there), but the program is not switched to.
However, if I use the Halion VSTi with the same settings (GM on, Program Change active) in Cubase, the PC commands from the Cubase MIDI track are also received.
What could be the reason for this?
How do I switch the programs in Halion with PC commands?

Thomas

[thomas0906]

Seem nobody else uses reaper with steinberg halion? :-(

I have found an old vst2 version of halion.
And it works witch PC from reaper.

But all new versions of halion are vst3.

So it seems that reaper does not send pc to vst3 plugins.
By the way: Ableton live has the same problem.

Why is reaper not able to send pc to halion vst3, but to vst2?

[mschnell]

What do you mean by " send a Program Change command from Reaper"

"Program change" usually denotes a Midi Message. same can be generated anywhere (Reaper Midi Editor, external Midi Keyboard, ....)

There is no difference in sending Midi PC messages to VST2s vs to VST3s.

You might want to place a ReaControlMidi instance before Halion to see the log of the Midi messages.

"Ableton live has the same problem." Seems like a problem of the plugin itself.
AFAIU, most Halion versions came bundled with CuBase, and AFAIK same can't be used with Reaper due to license and/or copy protection issues.
(A friend of mine bought Kiontakt for that reason...)

[thomas0906]

*** cThere is no difference in sending Midi PC messages to VST2s vs to VST3s. ***

Steinberg changed the behaviour.
VST3 does not work like VST2.

You have to send PC in a specific format to a vst3 plugin.
Not as a midi string. VST3 does not support midi input strings directly.

Would be interesting what the reaper developers have done to support sending PC to VST3 plugins.

[mschnell]

AFAIK, there are no Problems with sending Midi PC messages by Reaper to other VST3s.
You might want to try Kontakt 7 "Player" VST3 or many others that are free or demo.

Maybe Halion VST3 does not adhere to Midi PC, but only to something Steinberg propriety.

[mschnell]

I tested that Kontakt (6) and Kontakt 7 VSTi3s happily follow Midi Program change Messages in Reaper.

[mschnell]

Is Halion even intended to be used with other DAWs then Cubase or "Sonic" ? Are there distributions of Halion VST3i without DAW feautures ?

[jieva2]

Cannot change a program in Halion Sonic vst3 from reaper. Cakewalk and Cubase work fine. Also not all keystrokes are being sent to the halion sonic vst3 from reaper even though the setting is on. EG start typing in the sonic patch search box and if you use certain letters like "M" you will mute your reaper track. Again does not happen in Cakewalk. I can find posts of others with this problem. Something to do with the host DAW not implementing the later standards set by Steinberg for VST3. I found this from SCHWA a few years ago for a VST3 similar problem

"Sending program change messages fails for that plugin because it returns kNotImplemented from IUnitInfo::getUnitByBus, which is meant to tell us that the plugin can accept program change messages on a given MIDI bus/channel. If we skip that call and just assume the plugin can accept messages on any MIDI channel, it does process the program change messages."

It was never fixed

[mschnell]

I suppose Halion is rather strictly tied to Steinberg DAWs. (As ReaEQ <or ReaVerb, or ... > is not really intended to be used with other DAWs.) (But ReaEQ does not cost $$ )

[smandrap]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I suppose Halion is rather strictly tied to Steinberg DAWs. (As ReaEQ <or ReaVerb, or ... > is not really intended to be used with other DAWs.) (But ReaEQ does not cost $$ )

It’s not, it’s a sampler and it works in any host.

[smandrap]

Don't know if it can work (can't test it now), but could you try clicking the + button next to the preset dropdown and selecting link to midi program change > Link all channels sequentially?

It's a shot in the dark, but worth a try

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by smandrap

It’s not, it’s a sampler and it works in any host.

It does not seem to adhere to standard Midi Program Change CCs, which is a very common feature with samplers. (I daily use this with Kontakt).

[smandrap]

Originally Posted by mschnell

It does not seem to adhere to standard Midi Program Change CCs, which is a very common feature with samplers. (I daily use this with Kontakt).

But it does adhere to program changes in other hosts, so the problem is likely the way reaper handles some stuff related to VST3 PC like this:

"Sending program change messages fails for that plugin because it returns kNotImplemented from IUnitInfo::getUnitByBus, which is meant to tell us that the plugin can accept program change messages on a given MIDI bus/channel. If we skip that call and just assume the plugin can accept messages on any MIDI channel, it does process the program change messages."

The point is: no, Halion is not a Cubase only thing

[mschnell]

Kontakt is a VST3. I never heard of such issue other than with Halion.
regarding the quote: Halion seems to state (correctly) to the DAW that it does not accept program change messages.
Seemingly what you think is "program change" in Halion is meant to be something different.

[smandrap]

But then why does it work in Studio One, Cakewalk, Ableton, FL Studio, Cubase, and not here?

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by smandrap

But then why does it work in Studio One, Cakewalk, Ableton, FL Studio, Cubase, and not here?

That is a question, indeed....
Did you test this with the non-Steinberg DAWs you mentioned ?
Maybe those provide special non standard VST-Midi-API support for Halion.

But could be a Reaper shortcoming, as well, which only shows up in that case.

[ts335]

There are some issues with VST3i. I'm not a Halion user but I do have AAS Lounge Lizard and Program Changes work on VSTi but not on VST3i - same midi file on both. Here is the response from AAS:

Program changes indeed do not work in certain DAW with the VST3i version. It is a mix of problems on our side and on the DAW side. I will double check with the development team if something can be done with Reaper. I know that this is a known issue but I am not sure if this can be fixed.

Bottom line some work and some don't.
<<TS>>

[jieva2]

As a Test I created a new Cakewalk Project and added the Halion Sonic VST3 as a simple Instrument. I then opened the Halion Sonic VST and clicked on the allow program changes / GM mode.

I then used the cakewalk eventlist to add a single event and changed this to Program change and selected bank 0 and any other patch number. After hitting Play Halion Sonic loads that patch.

Doing the same thing in Reaper does not work.

There is also other strange behaviour when the plugin is loaded in Reaper in that you cannot enter search text within the patch browser in Halion Sonic media bay. Well you can except certain letters like "m". This just mutes the track. This happens if the plugin is set to receive all key strokes or Not.

This is all in the Windows 11. Not tested on MAC

[Michael AD]

Originally Posted by ts335

Here is the response from AAS:

Program changes indeed do not work in certain DAW with the VST3i version. It is a mix of problems on our side and on the DAW side. I will double check with the development team if something can be done with Reaper. I know that this is a known issue but I am not sure if this can be fixed.

Bottom line some work and some don't.
<<TS>>

Well, that probably explains why I am having no luck making a program change in AAS Chromaphone. (And I can make the PC in Ableton.) I don't recall if Chromaphone offered a VST2 version, but I will check tonight - hopefully, that will solve the problem.

[Michael AD]

Yes, the Chromaphone VST2 allows program changes!

I'm happy to get this capability, but I'm a bit intrigued that a VST2 can do things that its VST3 version can not.

I am going to presume all the AAS instruments should now be VST2 for use in Reaper. Of course, I have Reaper set up to only show VST3 items in the instrument browser, so I will have to remove all the AAS VST3s from the scan path, which will allow Reaper to see the VST2 versions.

Anyway, I was able to run 4 instances of Chromaphone 3 (which uses a lot of CPU) and make program changes, so thanks to ts335 for posting his email message that he received from AAS.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Michael AD

I'm a bit intrigued that a VST2 can do things that its VST3 version can not.

The initial version of VST3 could not handle Midi CCs. They added that feature later wen users bitterly complained.

[RunBeerRun]

VST3 preset selecting is odd, if they did appear above the plugin and had fxp/fxb, I'm sure the program change would always work. I'm pretty sure no one likes vst3 and you should make backups of working software.

[mschnell]

We will not see many new VST2s, as the Steinberg licensing forbids deploying VST2s to those, who don't have an old(!) VST2 license, and they don't provide new VST2 licenses, but VST3 in a more relaxed way than it had been with VST2.

VST3 broke with the paradigm that Midi for plugins works the same way as Midi worked with external hardware.

[jieva2]

I know there is a lot of talk about if VST3 supports program change etc but built into halion sonic is a config tick box to accept them. It called allow program changes (GM mode) and it indeed does accept the changes in everything that I have tried and it works in everything except reaper. In halion/reaper you can see the channel flash as it receives the program change but it does not change the patch.

I have seen this behaviour before in Halion Sonic vst (not vst3) when it can't locate the soundfile/lib. It never tells you that though and once I put the libs in the right place it worked.

I am beginning to think that this has nothing to do with patch change but rather some odd behaviour with the vst3 when it is loaded in reaper. There are certainly lots of other quirks with the plugin when loaded into reaper such as patch browsing search bar not allowing certain letters such as "m" and "s" with these being interpreted as mute track or solo etc. The plugin is just not working correctly in Reaper

[smandrap]

Originally Posted by jieva2

patch browsing search bar not allowing certain letters such as "m" and "s" with these being interpreted as mute track or solo etc.

Unfortunately this is the case for almost all the plugins with a text input field. There are certain actions that seem to be always passed to the main window no matter what, even with send all keyboard events to plugin turned on. Sometimes adding shift (like Shift+M) solves the issue, sometimes it doesn't. It's a known problem that bites people daily.

This program change behaviour is also a symptom of a general problem: it's not Halion, it's something that has to do with this whole VST3 thing. Sad to have this kind of roadblocks.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by jieva2

I know there is a lot of talk about if VST3 supports program change etc

I just verified that Kontakt VST3i accepts program change messages in Reaper in Windows, and also sees "m" and "s" keys no problem.

[jieva2]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I just verified that Kontakt VST3i accepts program change messages in Reaper in Windows, and also sees "m" and "s" keys no problem.

Yes that's correct and is why I am thinking it's not a VST 3 program change bug but something else that prevents Halion Sonic not working correctly in Reaper. It works in other DAWS so the problem is not Halion.

I do not have a way to test yet but maybe there is something clashing that means Halion cant find its patch files when switching patches or too many ports open or database issue or something like that.

There are also other issues as previously mentioned and also a few more like open a model Dialogs in Halion like about and it shows underneath the main Window and not on top. A right pain.

[mschnell]

In Kontakt those are "Bank" files. I created those banks and saved them in files
Do you use "patch files" you saved with exactly that Halion instance =?

[jieva2]

Originally Posted by mschnell

In Reaper those are "Bank" files. I created those banks and saved them in files
Do you use "patch files" you saved with exactly that Halion instance =?

Not sure what you mean as I am talking about Halion Sonic 7 and in particular setting it to GM mode and allowing patch changes. Halion sets all channels except 10 to gm piano and channel 10 to GM Drumkit.

In every other DAW tested sending a patch change to any channel will result in that channel loading the patch.

It's being sent exactly the correct bank and program number. The channel inside Halion Sonic flashes and nothing happens. Sending exactly the same midi messages from any other DAW works.

[mschnell]

Sorry ! Typo.
I meant to write "In Kontakt those are "Bank" files...."
(corrected above)
Just to demonstrate how Midi Program Change in Reaper with Kontakt VST3 works. I.e. Kontakt saves patch collections in "Banks" which are dedicated files, and with PC it selects a patch in one (or multiple) banks that are loaded in Kontakt.