Old 01-18-2019, 12:00 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Bazzbass View Post
experienced musicians certainly can record themselves live with headphones.

If the band can't play with headphones then they need to improve.
That really isn't the point though; it's that playing without headphones, and/or having bleed isn't "crazy" at all.
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Old 01-18-2019, 01:53 AM   #42
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Judders, that setup is well smart, thanks for posting it. I like to place the bass central facing the drums.
Yeah, I can see the sense in that, and Moses Schneider, in the ebook MagicBuss recommended, has that scheme too, amongst others (I've just had a chance to flick through it - it's worth buying IMO).

http://www.mosesschneider.com/books

My reasoning is to do with the ORTF OH's over the drummer's shoulder. The low frequencies from the bass amp will be omnidirectional and so unavoidable no matter how it is facing, but I want to keep any clanging and pick/finger attack diffused and out of the OH's. Judicious use of HPF can get rid of most of the very low bleed, and the small distance between the OH mic's in ORTF will keep the bleed from being noticeably unbalanced between L & R (and those low wavelengths are so long that phase issues between L & R timing differences are not noticeable).

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I don't think smaller rooms are necessary a problem. Often recordings done in larger studios cluster the musicians in a small area. It gets better performances, and helps minimise phase issues, therefore getting good bleed.
True, but those bigger rooms don't tend to suffer from standing waves to the same degree as small rooms. You really have to look out for where the bass is more and less prominent in small rehearsal rooms. The high frequency diffusion is also a lot nicer and it takes reflections longer to come back in larger rooms.

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Old 01-18-2019, 02:02 AM   #43
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experienced musicians certainly can record themselves live with headphones.
That's a bit of a weird blanket statement.

Experienced studio musicians can. It's definitely a must for sessions players.

Whether a musician prefers recording while wearing headphones or not is another matter.

For instance, here is The Bad Plus recording a session at BBC Maida Vale studio:



World class musicians with a lot of studio albums under their belt, being recorded at a prestigious studio... without headphones.

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If the band can't play with headphones then they need to improve.
Have you told Peter Gabriel this? I think he missed the memo!
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:56 AM   #44
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As several have said above, focus on getting a satisfactory drum recording - it doesn't have to be squeaky clean; your can at least dub everything else onto this later if you want/need to. The band can play live to the drum track, even.

I recorded the Pogues, live, in an 8x6 bedroom on a TEAC 4-track. Imagine my surprise when that tape emerged on a compilation album ten years later - and it stands up.
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Old 01-21-2019, 06:09 AM   #45
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Example of a live band recording in a very small room with very cheap recording equipment, no headphones, not drum enclosure .

-> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=216213

Not at all perfect, but works for me.

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Old 01-21-2019, 06:41 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
That's a bit of a weird blanket statement.

Experienced studio musicians can. It's definitely a must for sessions players.

Whether a musician prefers recording while wearing headphones or not is another matter.

For instance, here is The Bad Plus recording a session at BBC Maida Vale studio:



World class musicians with a lot of studio albums under their belt, being recorded at a prestigious studio... without headphones.



Have you told Peter Gabriel this? I think he missed the memo!
Recorded myself recently, 99% with headphones, but its probably telling that the take (of many over weeks) I chose going forward begins with me saying "no f**King headphones for this one.."

So theres probably something to it..

just more aware of senses, allows a little more (few percentage points perhaps) freedom of performance.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:27 AM   #47
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...recording a rough scratch track. Thereafter guys would come to the studio where they could overdub their parts and I could work with them one-on-one to get their sound right, before the final mixing is done.
What are your experiences in this regard? Thanks!
I don't have an opinion, other than to say, the "classic live album", Live And Dangerous by Thin Lizzy was pretty much done like that.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:03 PM   #48
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Just discovered a cool podcast and in this episode and from around 5 minutes in they talk about tracking live vs. overdubbing and William Wittman talks about how recording everything live gives the push and pull all around the circle, rather than all in one direction as with overdubbing.

https://www.gear-club.net/episodes/2...wittman-part-2
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:04 PM   #49
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I recorded the Pogues, live, in an 8x6 bedroom on a TEAC 4-track. Imagine my surprise when that tape emerged on a compilation album ten years later - and it stands up.
Have you got a link to this recording? Is it on iTunes?
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:09 PM   #50
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I recorded the Pogues, live, in an 8x6 bedroom on a TEAC 4-track. Imagine my surprise when that tape emerged on a compilation album ten years later - and it stands up.
That is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:16 PM   #51
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William Wittman
Pretty sure he used to be or is a member here. Someone pointed that out to me when telling me about his use of LCR. Ah, here is the reference...

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...5&postcount=27

Ha, you were in that thread too.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:21 PM   #52
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Pretty sure he used to be or is a member here. Someone pointed that out to me when telling me about his use of LCR. Ah, here is the reference...

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...5&postcount=27

Ha, you were in that thread too.
Interesting... only ever heard him talk about using Pro Tools. I know him from the defunct The Womb forums that were run by Mixerman / Eric Sarafin.

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Old 01-25-2019, 01:24 PM   #53
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Interesting... only ever heard him talk about using Pro Tools. I know him from the defunct The Womb forums that were run by Mixerman / Eric Serafin.
Mixerman lives about 3 hours from me these days up in the NC mountains.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:27 PM   #54
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Mixerman lives about 3 hours from me these days up in the NC mountains.
Ah! He's also a judge in a mixing contest over at Mike Senior's Cambridge Audio site at the moment.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:49 PM   #55
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Just discovered a cool podcast and in this episode and from around 5 minutes in they talk about tracking live vs. overdubbing and William Wittman talks about how recording everything live gives the push and pull all around the circle, rather than all in one direction as with overdubbing.

https://www.gear-club.net/episodes/2...wittman-part-2
Wow, near the end he comes out with a doozy. You're supposed to listen for what's good - is this making me want to dance/cry/whatever. In the DAW age people are listening for what's wrong, and an absence of errors is not what makes it great.

He articulated something that I've always felt so well.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:57 PM   #56
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Wow, near the end he comes out with a doozy. You're supposed to listen for what's good - is this making me want to dance/cry/whatever. In the DAW age people are listening for what's wrong, and an absence of errors is not what makes it great.

He articulated something that I've always felt so well.
Yea, makes all that stress over .1 dB EQ changes etc. somewhat irrelevant.
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Old 01-25-2019, 02:37 PM   #57
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a thousand apologies for not responding sooner guys...

I'd gotten my plan sorted by the first few posts (a similar layout to Judders diagram on the previous page.)

But a HUGE thank you for all the conversation that followed. So much valuable advice. You guys are the best!
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Old 01-25-2019, 02:47 PM   #58
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a thousand apologies for not responding sooner guys...

I'd gotten my plan sorted by the first few posts (a similar layout to Judders diagram on the previous page.)

But a HUGE thank you for all the conversation that followed. So much valuable advice. You guys are the best!
Can't wait to hear it!
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Old 01-25-2019, 03:18 PM   #59
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experienced musicians certainly can record themselves live with headphones.

If the band can't play with headphones then they need to improve.
The issues are often outside of the realm of how experienced the musicians are. For one, when doing a remote recording at the band's space, unless one has a very good headphone monitoring rig for a live band, with enough heavy duty headphones and dedicated headphone amp and breakouts, with several (perfectly inspired and balanced) mixes going out independently, the headphone experience will be less than ideal, sometimes compromised to the point the musicians are making concessions. If the only signal available is a single output from an interface, that's rough.

Often I find the musicians, or sometimes half the band, doesn't want to use headphone, even when I brought them and want them to. It's a totally different experience. The point isn't that more experienced musicians can do a band recording with headphones, it's how will the best music get made. Sometimes headphones are the only way to go, and sometimes they are what's tanking the music. There are reasons why bands we love and know are wonderful live have put out some charmless records. : ) Sometimes the recording process is too different from a music making environment, or different enough, and it can be good to keep it as much as possible not too unlike how they usually do it.

I'm not saying don't use headphones if you only have a cobbled together headphone setup. Sometimes it's what you gotta do. I am saying that sometimes when capturing a performance it's not necessary to turn the room into a recording studio, and if there's a live performance to be captured sometimes it's preferable not to.
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Old 01-25-2019, 03:19 PM   #60
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Just discovered a cool podcast and in this episode and from around 5 minutes in they talk about tracking live vs. overdubbing and William Wittman talks about how recording everything live gives the push and pull all around the circle, rather than all in one direction as with overdubbing.

https://www.gear-club.net/episodes/2...wittman-part-2


"Wow, near the end he comes out with a doozy. You're supposed to listen for what's good - is this making me want to dance/cry/whatever. In the DAW age people are listening for what's wrong, and an absence of errors is not what makes it great.

He articulated something that I've always felt so well."
Gear Club is the BEST!!! Yes, that is one of the best quotes about recording ever
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Old 01-29-2019, 12:13 PM   #61
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Have you got a link to this recording? Is it on iTunes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4jy15s0N-c

I don't know how much re-engineering was done but it's the original tiny bedroom takes.
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:14 PM   #62
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Man that is as high fi as any studio recording Ive ever heard of them
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Old 01-29-2019, 03:48 PM   #63
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Man that is as high fi as any studio recording Ive ever heard of them
Yeah it sounds good. I'd really like to know how it was recorded in an 8'x 6' room. Care to give us any details Bolgwrad?
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:05 AM   #64
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4jy15s0N-c

I don't know how much re-engineering was done but it's the original tiny bedroom takes.
Sounds great!

How many instruments were amplified? Were there absolutely zero overdubs?
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:27 AM   #65
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Sounds great!

How many instruments were amplified? Were there absolutely zero overdubs?
Thanks! As I say I have zero idea whether the company that released these demos had the 4-tk TEAC master (probably), whether any later o/dubs were done (not vocals anyway), and how much cleaning up/stereo-izing was done. I had my cassette copies, but they could be anywhere.

This is from memory, 36 years ago, so it's how I think I must have done it. NO amplification. Kick drum mic (Andrew) and DI bass (Kat) were mixed with 2 live mics and everybody heard through cans. I just had this crappy patch panel which bussed everything without EQ to TEAC channel 1/2 with the live mics for snare, accordion and guitar (Andrew, James and Shane), Track 3 for banjo/whistle (Jem/Spider) and anything else, Track 4 for Shane. The Bass/Kick (and snare bleed) track was kept as the root guide if we needed to overdub, but we didn't bother. The headphone arrangement was a bit bizarre, think I only had four sets.

The only overdub was a couple of banjo parts, I don't think Shane did any retakes, maybe a couple. I've got a feeling the whistle might be a new recording.

We had to slow the track and detune the banjo so Jem could play to speed on Whalefisheries. Spider learned to play the tin whistle in about six weeks prior to that.

We were all pleased with the results; I'd been doing a bit of stage mixing for them (got a mention in the official bio), but they must have wanted a less authentic, more punky sound. When they got signed they got Darryl Hunt on bass and a rhythm guitarist. What you've got to bear in mind is that The Pogues were really exciting to hear in the first place; nothing was added by engineering, hopefully not too much was lost.

I'm not the YouTube uploader btw. These are from the same sesh.

Dark Streets of London
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvhyyPqDxNM
Greenland Whalefisheries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJhVsDJD4-E

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