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Old 07-21-2018, 02:08 AM   #1
foxAsteria
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Default Track Wiring View Suggestions (share them here!)

Share your suggestions here and I'll attempt to keep this post updated with everyone's input (provided it's relevant).

I hope this is allowed, but with the noise from all the defensive whinging over in the pre-release thread, it quickly became difficult to discuss this very exciting new feature!

If you are as excited about it as me, perhaps together we can present our feedback and suggestions here for the devs' convenience.

* Please keep any side-banter or off topic bitching to a minimum and personal attacks to an absolute fucking zero!


Suggestions: *edited for clarity (so I may have misinterpreted some requests...lemme know)

Ability to drag the send box around to change it from pre-FX to post fader to post pan easily.

Mouse modifiers for scrolling

Mirror selected track in arrange/mixer

Selected track filter (and optionally also show any tracks they are connected to via routing)

A "folder" like hide button on a parent tracks so you can hide all the child track/objects

Draggable routing changes for which input channel the send is coming into

Filter tracks by name/selection/type

Modifier keys for when you click on the minimise arrow for one object to minimises all the connected ones too

Modifier that minimises all objects when clicking to minimize one of them ( for an overview )

Post fader FX

The ability to wire a track's FX and item fx

Fast mousewheel zooming

Commentable containers for organizing and moving around groups of items

An option to only show hardware inputs/outputs that have aliased names, instead of showing ALL of them at all times.

Ability to see the names of ins/outs

Showing only tracks that have sends/receives, perhaps.

Modifier + click on SEND to focus the display on the destination track.

Modifier + click on cable to focus the display on the source track.

Option to view signal flow from left to right instead of right to left

Option to follow the MCP option "master on the right"

Tracing selected routings visually.

Animated signal flow when there is audio playback (for troubleshooting routing)

Display wires only for the selected track component

Double click any wire to instantly filter the view to only that connection

We have the option to only show wires when mouse over, but this doesn't help when following wires off screen, as they will vanish when you scroll to find the end.

Clicking a button that causes a pop up to appear should act as toggle. The button image should also change to reflect that a popup is open.

Allow sending and receiving from any point in the fx chain.

Have plus/minus buttons at the top right of the track to add or remove channels, as we have in the plugin pin window

Show only wires relating to specific aspects of the track on mouseover, since a single track can easily have an unwieldy number of wires (e.g. fx busses)

Option for non-curved cables (straight and grid-aligned)

More color contrast for pin interface

Double click empty space to create new track

Dragging master / parent button to another track to assign it a new parent track

Mouse click modifier to mute tracks

Allow renaming of the tracks

Marquee selection

Option to collapse children into the parent track node

Auto arrange function as you add new tracks in the tcp the wiring diagram gets messy (The only option currently is to reset the whole view)

Intra-track FX routing

Parent Tracks being collapsible to "group" nodes.

track selection indicator

Allow fx routing

Monitoring FX chain routing

Drag and drop between arrange/mixer and wiring diagram

Different colors for pre fx and pre fader send blocks would be great too

Fader and send box mousewheel and/or drag to adjusting levels

Allow to expand more than one plugin vertically at once in the pin matrix

Allow changing the displayed number of channels in the pin matrix

Optimize/test with large VSTi projects

Tabs to switch between other matrices

Match the flow direction to whichever side you've got the master set to in the mixer

"Layers" like in Logic


Issues:
The FX pin connection graphics can be misleading when plugin is collapsed in track wiring view.

Vertical and horizontal scrolling is connected for some reason

Weird behavior : move track box in wire diagram, copy paste or duplicate existing track -> new tracks don't appear or it's a complete mess
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:22 AM   #2
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see -> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=175
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
noise


Weird behavior


complete mess

^agreed.
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:46 AM   #4
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i would like to ask what is the advantage of this panel? what will be able to do that we couldn't already? is this a third way to see same content (tracks) configurations and routing and fx?
What is the advantage of it compared to a simple panel like track inspector? why isn't it redundant?


my opinion: "while it's nice to have an overview of the project as a whole, at the end we can only focus on 1 thing at a time and for me, TCP and MCP is the preferred and handy place to do so, and i don't see the need of a third way, specially since basic editing features are still missing and an inspector would be much more handy and apparently simpler to implement"
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:34 AM   #5
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It's Saturday kids. Go outside and play.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:58 AM   #6
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you have helped me some times or at least tried and i have to thank you for that. We even exchanged a message or two,
and you seem a nice guy with a good sound. Anyway! i just would like to know arguments tho! : )
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Old 07-21-2018, 12:05 PM   #7
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The argument is dead simple: flexibility (aka not everyone works the same way and we all have different needs an expectations). Many of us have experience using modular routing environments and for us it's The Absolute Tits of Valhalla. Your lack of interest in the feature is well established and changes exactly nothing, so let's bury the poor dead horse already, shall we?

I do appreciate your attempt to be cordial about it and the nice words. I'd just like to point out that you are completely free and more than welcome to start your own thread and discuss there whatever your little heart desires. Please try to have some respect for the wishes of others (not to mention the forum guidelines).

And to further illustrate the benefit of an ideal modular routing environment just imagine you've made loads of routings between loads of tracks. If you open the routing matrix it might help you to get an overview of the connections (it merely confuses me). Or you could look at the pin matrix for individual tracks and try to sort it out with the super-not-fun number matching game, as I like to call it. But what if you could see the flow of audio flowing through all those connections. Can you picture how that might help you figure out why x track isn't sounding the way you expect or possibly even making sound at all. Such a visual system does not exist in the analog world. Problem solving in live sound work would be 1000x easier if you could see audio flowing through wires, but you can't. If you can't see the advantage of that, I cannot help you. Just ignore the feature. It's not for you.
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Old 07-21-2018, 12:11 PM   #8
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Some users find the "routing pin" concept difficult. It's doing the same thing as real-world patch cables, but it's not an intuitive way to visualize them. This, on the other hand, looks just like real-world patch cables.

Having come to Reaper from Tracktion many, many eons ago, I can vouch that this sort of view is much faster to use and simpler to understand.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:22 PM   #9
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thank you both. I'll be back in a week! i go to the best festival in the world now! : )
Peace
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:12 PM   #10
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+1 on practically all of those, i inadvertently echoed you a bunch in the pre2 thread.
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Old 07-22-2018, 06:30 PM   #11
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@mccrabney - just to be clear, these are all suggestions I pulled from the pre1 thread so they wouldn't be lost in the noise. If I'm missing anything though, go ahead an post it here and I'll add it. Hopefully the devs will take them under consideration.
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Old 07-22-2018, 07:56 PM   #12
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Honestly, I requested the wiring / nodal / modular view for sound design purposes (layering synths/samplers). The first DAW I ever worked with was Reason. Maybe that is the reason, I find visual patching more inspiring. However, I've come to also like the pin view as well.

Variety is the spice of life.
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Old 07-23-2018, 03:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
...

The ability to wire a track's FX and item fx
Just wanted to plus one this, would be fantastic
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:18 PM   #14
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Exactly ; Plus One for me too !
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicowl View Post
(other thread, regarding the Bidule GUI)
I don't want to see anything like that in Reaper.
Of course it should be enabled optionally and/or only pop up as a result of an action.

Technically, maybe it should/could be done as an extension rather than in the main executable. But this of course is up to the devs.

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Old 07-24-2018, 06:13 AM   #16
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^ as per the discussion in the pre2 thread, sonicowl clarified that it's the gui of this image he was taking issue with, not the function:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicowl
The graphic presentation of your example - it looks too agressive to me. IMO Reaktor UI looks much more polished and easier on the eyes.


personally, i think anything project of adequate complexity is going to look busy and wacky from a zoomed-out perspective. here's reaktor:



however Cockos does it, here's what i hope:

when zoomout occurs, i want to always be able to read the trackname. text could shrink to a certain point, but never become illegible (as it does in Bidule).

as far as the clickable/dragable input/output points on the wiring diagram, i could imagine them disappearing at far zoomout, so that a user would mousewheel zoom in to grab/drag a new "cable," zoom out while holding mousebutton, mouse over to the desired track, zoom in, and drop it on the desired spot. doing any of this clicking and dragging when the UI is vanishingly small is very tedious (as is the case in bidule).

^ in all cases here, zoom via mousewheel would zoom in at mouse cursor.
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:00 AM   #17
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Hi,
I took a week or so off..and bam!

I think this graphical display of routing is a great idea.
Has anyone ever used logics enviourment? Its old but very use full.
And ,since I'm trying to catch up, has there been any discussion about doing this with midi? I might have a miocardial infarction if the devs implemented this!:-)
And the naysayers...plz...just stop:-)
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:34 PM   #18
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This is where I'm coming from and what makes sense to me (basically):


Names are visible at any zoom level and you can double click the nodes and arrows for more detail.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
It's Saturday kids. Go outside and play.

^heh--ello grandadda ___ yaay such a funday to play that was!
we forget to be children sometimes...when children is all we are..all of us at heart..
this is complicated thing cockos are looking at doing here but some extra inputs could help speed that along,so i reckon a good place for people to look @ and *suggest from* would be 4 systems--
a.patcher's nodes
b.vsxu nodes
c.reason's cabling system [audio+emulated cv {midi}]
d.blender's nodes including node wrangler + group nodes {macro,micros}

because of the way reaper works,snap to grid system might be good for node placing+auto snapped spacing.
make it funky and exciting !!--not boring rectangles and squares--- the chi does not flow well--more curves or softening of edges .. please..

animations are great but kinda costly i guess..but modern computers really should breeze simple stuff at the cost of these machines and the many many so called systems 'improvements' over the years..!!!
lolz.. we are @ 2018 not 1978..
general midi system is old as well,but people think it's ok enough,until it chokes.


cockos either do this better than the rest or they may be left to fest,open to jest--this,i do not want to test @ worse,or best.
gl with this cockos-you can do it.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:35 PM   #20
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I used to like the spaghetti cabling in Reason, but it gets more difficult to read where cables are coming from and going to when the routing gets more complex. Implementing graphical routing well seems like it would be a difficult programming task, but I would like to see something tidier than spaghettic cables. I think that old-school style wiring schematics had alot going for them. Take a look at this: http://codecookbook.co/wiring-harnes...r-software-on/

And look at the symbols here: https://www.rapidtables.com/electric...l_symbols.html

Straight lines and right angles help to keep things tidy and legible. An even if all the cables are the same color, those half circles and dots show well when crossing cables are not connected and connected, respectively.

The tough part for this style seems like it would be calculating the layouts for lines (cables) as routings change, in other words, establishing rules for layouts. That is, if it is done automatically. If it is done manually, that becomes much less a concern, but then the user is taxed with the task of laying things out to taste.

Anyway, I think that Reason, Reaktor, PD, do NOT get it right. Graphical routing is no good if it is only legible for simple routings. Of course, the cabling could be reduced when graphically 'soloing' connected objects, but it should still be tidy and mostly legible for complex projects.

Another thought here is to use symbols or text to show continuations. Think of electrical ground here. Rather than ground circuits running all over the place back to common points in electrical schematics, each ground point of a circuit terminates with a ground symbol near it's usage point, which reduces alot of clutter. A hot connection could just as easily terminate at a hot point, rather than running all the way back to the power source. And a connection from a track to a bus could terminate at a symbol or text, rather than running all the way to the bus. It's a bit of a hybrid approach; part graphic, part text.
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:08 AM   #21
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@brainwreck - I'm not convinced that's anything more than preference, tbh. Electrical wiring diagrams confuse me, personally, while curved cables provide some helpful contrast against the straight lines of everything they connect. But I've already added someone's request for that option.

I think the ideal solution is already partially there; to hide the cables until we focus on something and then only show what's relevant. E.g. one of my suggestions was to double click on any cable in order to quickly filter the view to the nodes it connects.
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Old 07-25-2018, 04:44 AM   #22
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brainwreck - agree spaghetti cables that "look real" aren't very good. that stupid jiggle animation always bothered me too (i'm not playing a video game nor do i need to be titillated by virtual gear)

in that sense the "curve" approach of cockos' current "cables" isn't my favorite. honestly i'd prefer cables that appear one way by default, but that could be "Drawn in" in such a way that it's snapped to sensible curves and lines (think of the auto-smooth function in some drawing applications)

disagree that text/symbol routing representations are a good alternative. electrical diagram is decent, 90 degree angles can be easier to look at than curves ala bidule

i think assignable cable color and other visual cues are going to be most important however this shakes out

Quote:
Graphical routing is no good if it is only legible for simple routings.
complex routings are going to be hard to look at no matter what the representation. bidule handles this by allowing the user to lasso select multiple blocks and "group" them into one block, so that you can neatly section certain messy but working and rarely accessed chunks out of sight. the mess is there, but you tuck it away in a simple looking function

no matter what cockos does, anyone who is unfamiliar with another person's complex project is likely going to balk at the look of the full wiring diagram for that project. this can be helped with actions like "only show wiring diagram for selected tracks," and/or "only show wiring diagram for selected tracks and their parent/child/sent/received associated tracks"
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Old 07-25-2018, 05:53 AM   #23
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mccrabney, taking a look at some Bidule routing screenshots, it looks pretty neat. But routings can be ambiguous. Take a look here, for example: http://theatreorgans.com/oregon/ocat...e%20config.jpg

That is a simple schematic, but it isn't easy to tell what some of the source/destinations are. There should be some cable spacing rules implemented to fix that.
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Old 07-25-2018, 06:22 AM   #24
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I'm taking a look at Reaper's wiring view this morning (for the first time), and I like it overall.

What I like:

- Track components are enclosed in containers. Keeps things neat.
- Tidy right angles and straight lines from tracks to buses.
- Track cables merge at common paths, rather than all paths being drawn completely from source to destination.
- Snapping when moving things around.
- Track nodes auto appear/disappear when mousing over (maybe optionally extend this to other cabling).
- It is overall something of a hybrid approach, not overly relying on cabling.


What I don't like:

- Spaghetti cables, from master to output, for example. It's a mess to read.
- Current record arm pin color is hard to see.
- Text is a bit small and less legible than text in tcp.

Suggestions:

- Replace current spaghetti cabling with cabling type that is being used between tracks and master.
- Add points to merging track cables, consistent with internal track routing (could also be visual mute/solo points).
- I also really like foxAsteria's suggestion for animated audio (and MIDI). Something as simple as some colored pixels moving along paths could be very helpful in troubleshooting routing. If it were implemented, it should be switchable and only shown for selected objects.
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:23 AM   #25
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agree with all suggestions above. having cables flash red at instant of midi signal would definitely help troubleshoot. i wish bidule had that every damn day
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:00 AM   #26
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eyo-how about actually having some views in the tcp+arrange area>?
this could be made very smart with transparent overlays,either on top of audio in timeline,or a toggle for track in|outs|send,returns.
if fx are going to be included with this (as 1 would imagine) it would be sweet @ tcp.
seeing no horrid reasons why reaper cannot become more visually modular-cable type ins<>outs on the tracks,or even better an actual rearack!!
arrange down bottom-devices and cabling view up top,to switch between plug in editing,or audio items editing.
smart tool tips are ok as text obviously-but animations are,or can be quick,made to be visually pleasing.


the current routing grid is super fast for most stuff-why this extra view there,when it could be in arrange or tcp area for speed,simplicity and 1 less pop up/open window..
pop ups are really distracting all the time unless they are infos...fixing certain elements into fixed areas defo makes sense <here>
_but_
reaper can also go 1 better with the walter/skinning and resizing of elements + possible plug in skinning options..
all types of cablings or views to suit certain themings,or user types..


the logical current order of view for arrange is left to right for signal flow+little tiny {flashing toggle states) thumbnails views can be overlayed in timeline to showing all routing for selected tracks etcteccet.aye-be kool with it.
would also be exellent to be able to visually>> link to all video controls+++ please,ty.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
agree with all suggestions above. having cables flash red at instant of midi signal would definitely help troubleshoot. i wish bidule had that every damn day
Flashing for MIDI would be fine I think. I would like to see something like this for audio flow, and maybe it could be helpful for some aspects of MIDI too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEuliFx_Pc This makes it very easy at a glance to see where signals are coming from, going to, and if there is a problem such as a signal not being properly routed to an expected destination. The animation should not be always running; only for troubleshooting or getting a quick sense of how someone else's routing works.

Also, an oscilloscope type object for seeing how signals change when passed through effects and such would be really nifty to have within the routing window.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:09 AM   #28
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Could we please have theming for the animated cables? B)

They could turn from green to red to indicate signal level, or even better become thicker when carrying a lot of signal.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Could we please have theming for the animated cables? B)

They could turn from green to red to indicate signal level, or even better become thicker when carrying a lot of signal.
That would be pretty sweet.

I suppose all sorts of things could be shown through switchable animations, such as signal levels (mute/solo status included), number of channels, feedback, spectral content, etc. What might be useful and in what ways?
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:31 PM   #30
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As far as cable organization, I think Unreal Engine does it best. You can double click a wire at any point to create an anchor point ("reroute node") which can be dragged to any position (snaps to grid). This way, you can have straight lines or spaghetti, as you prefer. They even have the ability to split or combine signals.



Furthermore you can create colored comment boxes around both nodes and wires and maintain that organization while moving whole sections around. When using meaningful colors for this, you can navigate a very large and complex blueprint pretty easily.



They've even got a way to collapse complex sections into re-usable "functions," which I'm not 100% sure is possible in our context, but it could be something like an fx chain + routings + visual arrangement, condensed into a single box with I/O that we can double click to edit in detail and reuse anywhere in any project.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:44 PM   #31
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:52 PM   #32
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Obviously I was wrong. Not a can of worms but a bucket of snakes

-Michael
Wrong about what? Sorry I couldn't understand what you wanted me to see in the link you posted.
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:30 PM   #33
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They've even got a way to collapse complex sections into re-usable "functions," which I'm not 100% sure is possible in our context, but it could be something like an fx chain + routings + visual arrangement, condensed into a single box with I/O that we can double click to edit in detail and reuse anywhere in any project.
^yers--as like blender's 'node groups' {tab edit} + with blender it basically by default always comes with 2 sliding side tabs >> 1 for tools,1 for properties... this could make sense here as well for reaper in total..
with the props tab--you can edit the colour coded containers group names,in+outputs+set other values/vars.
even though this^ sounds off track views it is not because each area of reaper can have it's own set of tools (as it does in actions)
i'll see if i can cock up a coupla mockups--

tbh-i think having the lbx stripper to create **fully docked and resizable** custom savable track diagrams + channel strips both as native options would knock all balls well out of the park.
lbo has done an amazing job there-code is almost completed,ready for native implementation !!!! (if agreed) =)
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
Wrong about what?
Just about the size of the worms and the can

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Old 07-25-2018, 01:37 PM   #35
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a bucket of snakes

having a hissing fit---lol 1978 text is so yesteryear m8-- text can be fun,right?
amp it up! heh.

glorify,liberate+stimulate us with some sexiertext-please!
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Old 07-25-2018, 03:34 PM   #36
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Hi,
Check out how logic handles cable management in enviourment. And can anyone tell me, does this new routing window work with midi also? Won't be at comp for awhile.

Edit...fox the unreal example looks like logics on steroids. Always loved the ability to take multiple components ...wire them up, then use that as one "object".

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Old 07-26-2018, 04:04 AM   #37
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Maybe looking something like Image-Line's Patcher?



Image courtesy of Robert Randolph from his blog.

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Old 07-26-2018, 04:09 AM   #38
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Maybe looking something like Image-Line's Patcher?


This looks good. Every box could be a track. And if you doubleclick on box, it woulod open FX wiring view, where you work just on FX wiring for a single track.
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Old 07-26-2018, 04:35 AM   #39
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keep in mind that none of these graphics people are posting are showing very complex projects at far zoomout.

edit, missed the unreal example. I'm not familiar with that platform but the 2nd graphic seems to represent a complex project zoomed out.
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Old 07-26-2018, 06:23 AM   #40
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very complex projects at far zoomout.
yeahs-but by the time the projects are created or templated the connections are usually made+set to not change--sooo..just a simple 'locked' project overview for all connections=nyce.


^ this is very simple-pretty much all that is needed->make it funkier and smarter,full drag n drop ,please.

reaper supposedly does 64 channels (without nested routings!) and must be able to resize and come into centered focusing view,accordingly eh..for any zoom levels.
as this functioning appears to be only for track routing right now--1 wonders if it will stay that way more permanent,or actually include items,input+output fx+midi..
anyways..|| quick crockup || for tcp management.
heh-sommin like that,you get the jist....some really kool icons or visual animations for plug in+outs would be doper than a droper--white tie would smash it!




meanwhile-issues continues urrrgh...

Last edited by Bri1; 07-26-2018 at 06:30 AM. Reason: 1Xtra.
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