Old 04-21-2017, 05:11 AM   #41
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Why are you stating any of this like you are replying to somebody ?
Nobody ever said it was the only DAW not in music stores, although it is by far the most popular non store DAW, that isn't guesswork, it is basic common sense.
I didn't say anyone did. You said distirubtors didn't like it and I only pointed out that it's not the only one doing that, and we don't actually know if it "sells" more than any of others not doing that. I wasn't replying, just discussing.

The other stuff just was me chuckling at some of the words from the OP, like "dominate".
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:49 AM   #42
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As I said before It's all matter of taste, but I am really glad that most of you agreed with that point UI and UX needs to be remastered.
IMHO most do not agree...
See one of the many other complete fruitless discussions on that nonsense-issue: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=186558

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Old 04-21-2017, 05:57 AM   #43
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IMHO most do not agree...
See one of the many other complete fruitless discussions on that nonsense-issue: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=186558

-Michael
I see quite a few people there saying that they do not like how it looks/works (UI/UX).

Very few saying they like it, and lots of people arguing without stating their opinion at all.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:21 AM   #44
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Stating the exact issues in detail might help triggering some improvement.
I am not an UX designer, that is a science on its own, so I cannot tell what exactly needs to be changed and how. I am an user and have just some feeling while using a piece of software.

From my limited knowledge I may say, that a sign that UX did not recieve enough attention might be when scrollbars are 1px off of the screen edges so you cannot throw your mouse to catch them.
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:05 AM   #45
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I see quite a few people there saying that they do not like how it looks/works (UI/UX).

Very few saying they like it, and lots of people arguing without stating their opinion at all.
Agreed. Your blog post re: the UX problems is spot-on.

Related (but not the same exact issue), I nearly burst into tears when I watched Kenny's video in the Default-o-rama thread. His menu modifications alone improve the user experience dramatically.
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:40 AM   #46
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Agreed. Your blog post re: the UX problems is spot-on.

Related (but not the same exact issue), I nearly burst into tears when I watched Kenny's video in the Default-o-rama thread. His menu modifications alone improve the user experience dramatically.
Which video? This thread right? http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=185596
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:16 PM   #47
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Very few saying they like it
That is because a very small percentage of Reaper users post here. That and we aren't taking into account that statistically, the most vocal are not the ones who are happy by a usually very large margin. Most of the happy users just get on with it and make music. I'm sort of in that group except I spend time here helping out, talking tech and hanging out with friends I've made. IE: You won't find more than five complaint posts from me because I have a tendency to exploit things to my advantage and keep rolling. I do use reaper to write/record/compose my own stuff, plus my band and the occasional paid project - I guess my DAW experiences go back to the late 90s.

Secondly, everyone tends to conflate the inability to theme dialogs with the entirety of the product. The reason they should be left separate is it always ends up with one person saying it's ugly because of dialogs and another stating it's beautiful but neither are making this distinction.

Personally, it would be great if the dialogs could the themeable but the overall default theme, looks fine and I have surely found it is the most to the point workflow wise for those who spend time actually using Reaper than all other themes with the exception of a literal handful. I do admit I use a brown and dark gray themes but those are basically the default with only a change in the color scheme.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:25 PM   #48
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That is because a very small percentage of Reaper users post here. That and we aren't taking into account that statistically, the most vocal are not the ones who are happy by a usually very large margin. Most of the happy users just get on with it and make music. I'm sort of in that group except I spend time here helping out, talking tech and hanging out with friends I've made. IE: You won't find more than five complaint posts from me because I have a tendency to exploit things to my advantage and keep rolling.

Secondly, everyone tends to conflate the inability to theme dialogs with the entirety of the product. The reason they should be left separate is it always ends up with one person saying it's ugly because of dialogs and another stating it's beautiful but neither are making this distinction.

Personally, it would be great if the dialogs could the themeable but the overall default theme, looks fine and I have surely found it is the most to the point workflow wise for those who spend time actually using Reaper than all other themes with the exception of a literal handful. I do admit I use a brown and dark gray themes but those are basically the default with only a change in the color scheme.
To be clear, I was referring to the thread that was supposedly proof that "most to not agree" about the UX/UI issues. There seems to be more people complaining in that thread than otherwise, so it seemed like a strange thing to link to.


In response to you though, I don't think that the 'silent majority' is very swaying argument. This forum is already full of people that are using or seriously interested in using Reaper.

If you go outside of this forum, the complains about the UI/UX are quite common. There's a chance that there's more people that won't use Reaper at all because of the UI/UX than there are people that deal with it.

Anyway... it's really not that big of a deal I think. Yes I think the UI is easily one of the worst of the popular DAWs, but it's also due to being plastered with functionality and configurability. There are tradeoffs to be made there. IMO, the UI/UX issue only really affects the learning curve, not necessarily the overall usability.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:02 PM   #49
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...
haervo

I am pretty experienced with routing still couldn't figure out and there is no manual how to rewire Melodyne with Reaper if you are not just a "big words" guy, help me out, show me how it's done.

...
I dont have and dont use Melodyne. Hence the remark that I dont need ARA - whatever that is or does. So I dont know how to rewire Melodyne into Reaper, but I saw one guy doing it. He said it would be more stable as using the plugin?

Thats for "big words". I dont know where from you get the opinion, that if someone knows something works he had to be able to explain how to do it. I know that the ISS works... and now I am a "big words guy" because I cant explain it to you? Sir, I think, if you need it, do a proper search how it is done. In some other points you complained about you didnt know also that that "fault" of Reaper was nothing but your lack of knowledge. Or willingness to research the "problem".

Or you stick to being the "big word guy" with near to nothing backing up your claims.

Edit: You cant rewire anything with a portable install. So I not only dont know how to rewire, I cant. Sorry.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:41 PM   #50
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To be clear,
Got it.

Quote:
In response to you though, I don't think that the 'silent majority' is very swaying argument. This forum is already full of people that are using or seriously interested in using Reaper.
It doesn't need to be swaying, it's generally a statistical fact in such matters across the board. Hearsay in this regard, by virtue of happy people don't tend to complain leans towards certainty. It doesn't make it a certainty that Reaper will win some award for most beautiful DAW because it isn't but the argument that "I heard a bunch of people say it's ugly ergo majority rules" would be an inaccurate statement.

Quote:
If you go outside of this forum, the complains about the UI/UX are quite common. There's a chance that there's more people that won't use Reaper at all because of the UI/UX than there are people that deal with it.
As long as you aren't making the assumption everyone who chooses reaper is "dealing with it" because that would another assumption of a subjective thing.

Quote:
Anyway... it's really not that big of a deal I think. Yes I think the UI is easily one of the worst of the popular DAWs, but it's also due to being plastered with functionality and configurability. There are tradeoffs to be made there. IMO, the UI/UX issue only really affects the learning curve, not necessarily the overall usability.
You are right, it isn't that big a deal, let's make the dialogs etc. better and move on. Nothing about Reaper or it's GUI has ever caused me (and the vast majority of other users) to start a 'dear jon letter to' type thread. I ended up here because I wanted a complex DAW with the learning curve. It is my hope it never becomes "grandma's DAW" so to speak, or I'll have to go find another one that is suitably complex for my needs and abilities. There are plenty of pretty and easy DAWs already and this isn't a popularity contest, at least for many of us using it.

So in the nicest way to everyone, I don't get why people show up here, roll up their sleeves and think they are saving the DAW world. Every DAW has a purpose and an audience and they should not all have the same strengths etc. which means every one can't be the pretty one. Each person should pick the one that works best for them and use it. That is the ONLY reason I'm here after coming from Logic (PC) and Cubase/Nuendo - IOW, I'd drop reaper like a rock if I was as disappointed as many of you are and not think twice about it, I'd just be gone.

PS: I understand improvement and feedback but much of this isn't really that, it's that surface DAW contest chatter that exists everywhere with varying fruit hanging from the tree, here it's the look of the fruit. So before I get roasted by the ugly bunch, everyone gets their say, I'm having mine and hopefully no one will freak out by my having it.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by inarisound View Post

I discovered Reaper fairly recently in mid 2016...
And now we are April 2017. That's a big 6-8 months of experience...


Quote:
Originally Posted by inarisound View Post

...unfortunately some things community can't fix and those things can hold lots of people from using Reaper as their main DAW.

... issues that prevent new professional audio engineers and composers become a full time users.


THIS
THAT
THE OTHER

.. every time I introduce Reaper to new people the first thing I hear "What is this new DP 8?"

...ugly, laggy and not user-friendly Digital Performer

More of

THIS
THAT
THE OTHER

These are some major issues that Reaper have and...
...

Six to eight months of using REAPER and not only did you find all these problems, but you need to convince everyone that REAPER is no good for professionals.

Did you hear that pros; stay away from Reaper. It would be better to use another DAW!

Who do you work for?

Who do you represent?

No wait... You want me to believe that you are a professional who really wanted to convert to REAPER, but in 8 months you found so many issues that prevented you from doing your job. But because you really really want to use Reaper, and because you are such a generous person, you figure you can point out to the world all the REAPER failings as a means of forcing Reaper programmers to fix everything preventing you from using Reaper professionally.

Well. I don't buy it.

The solution is easy. Really...

Go back to your other DAW!
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:34 PM   #52
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And now we are April 2017. That's a big 6-8 months of experience...

Six to eight months of using REAPER and not only did you find all these problems, but you need to convince everyone that REAPER is no good for professionals.

Did you hear that pros; stay away from Reaper. It would be better to use another DAW!

Who do you work for?

Who do you represent?

No wait... You want me to believe that you are a professional who really wanted to convert to REAPER, but in 8 months you found so many issues that prevented you from doing your job. But because you really really want to use Reaper, and because you are such a generous person, you figure you can point out to the world all the REAPER failings as a means of forcing Reaper programmers to fix everything preventing you from using Reaper professionally.

Well. I don't buy it.

The solution is easy. Really...

Go back to your other DAW!
I believe that you have misread his post.

His criticisms are mostly reasonable (but unfortunately poorly stated), and I don't see anywhere that he claims these things that you have implied.

Nowhere does he claim to be a professional. Nowhere does he claim that he 'wanted to convert to reaper'. Nowhere does he say that he wants to convince anyone that 'REAPER is no good for professionals'.

He does say that he cares about Reaper though.
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:14 PM   #53
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2) Melodyne 4

Melodyne became an industry standard for tuning vocals.
Yes it's better to get a good singer but anyway, Melodyne is a must for tuning vocals and in a state that it is right now, it's impossible to work with it.
You can't use shortcuts if you use it as a plugin (any format) and there are tons of unexpected behavior.
On top of that nobody knows how to rewire properly Melodyne Studio so that you can transfer audio from the session.

People have been requesting proper support for Melodyne for quite a long time... all it takes to type in Google "melodyne reaper" and read first few links to understand that people are confused how to use it with Reaper.
//ARA support is something that everyone have been requesting.

3) Default Theme and shortcuts

While this is really subjective but every time I introduce Reaper to new people the first thing I hear "What is this new DP 8?", witch is a common joke among Berklee kids, that basically mean (ugly, laggy and not user-friendly Digital Performer)

Most audio engineers and producers spend at least 6-7 hours by looking/working in their DAW and if it dose not feel right they will switch pretty quickly.

I know that you already work with White Tie and I really encourage in future releases to make his Imperial Theme used by default.

The skin (feel) of the DAW brings more credibility for new users and makes them to pass that learning curve.
This may have already been said by someone else, but I'd much prefer improvement to ReaTune (something we all already have) rather than integration with a separate product (not that I'd rule out things like that completely, just that I'd prefer existing things to be improved first)

And yeah, I was initially really disappointed with the V5 theme. The session mixer layout for the MCP is really cool though and I'd like to see that sort of design mirrored in the TCP. But still, similar to what I said before, I'd prefer improvements to WALTER, like the current HiDPI changes (or maybe make more things themeable, like stock plugins).
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:16 PM   #54
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So in the nicest way to everyone, I don't get why people show up here, roll up their sleeves and think they are saving the DAW world. Every DAW has a purpose and an audience and they should not all have the same strengths etc.
Exactly.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:12 PM   #55
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To be fair, Reaper being great or not, anybody suggesting its UI is on par with anything else in the software needs to seek help immediately, they have a win 3.1 machine rammed up their ying yang !!
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:54 AM   #56
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Which video? This thread right? http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=185596
Yes, that's it. The video is in this post: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=51
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:04 AM   #57
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Yes, that's it. The video is in this post: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=51
Thank you sir!
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:31 AM   #58
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I started to use Reaper one year ago after trying several other DAWs. Tried Reaper before but after a couple of minutes I was disapointed by the UX and unintuitive workflow.

One year later I gave it another try after reading the manual and I found it is an awesome DAW but you need to invest more than with others in order to get what you need. That is why I think it would be nice that the developers create a more 'attractive' UX that could appeal new users that rapidly throw Reaper away after trying it for a few minutes. I have tried to convince several friends to move to Reaper but it is very difficult as they found it very complex an unintuitive, also they only speak spanish and the documentation isn't friendly for newcomers in that language.

And regarding the sidechain issue mentioned, VocalRaider works perfectly with sidechain input for me. I have been using it in that way in almost all my projects. Just be careful of not creating a feedback loop in the sidechain signal.
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:31 PM   #59
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Did I just read someones letter?
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:56 PM   #60
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I started to use Reaper one year ago after trying several other DAWs. Tried Reaper before but after a couple of minutes I was disapointed by the UX and unintuitive workflow.

One year later I gave it another try after reading the manual and I found that it is an awesome DAW but you need to invest more than withh others in order to get wha typu need. That is why I think it would be nice that the developers create a more 'attractive' UX that could appeal, new users that rapidly throw Reaper after trying it for a few minutes. I have tried to convince several friends to move to Reaper but it is very difficult as they found it very complex an unintuitive, also they only speak spanish and the documentation is not very good for newcomers in that language.
This is exactly my very same experience with Reaper.
And i completely agree with you.
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:01 PM   #61
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you need to invest more than withh others in order to get wha typu need.
Happily, what somebody needs can be very different from what somebody else needs.

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Old 05-01-2017, 05:02 AM   #62
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Hi,
Re: theme. Been here a long time. Version 2.x or so. Didn't like the stock theme. Used DL 'd themes. Ended up modifying WT's bespoke. Took about 6 months to get it to where its fits me perfectly. Been using that since. I have no previous graphic experience. But its mine. I think it looks great!
Could not do that with other daws. It would be you like it or get used toit.
The only knock I have is some of its features come more from a coders ui than a musician. Like oscibot. But I make it work thanks to some very generous reaper users.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:17 AM   #63
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1st of May now, feel free to protest.
In general of what'ever'ness
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:22 AM   #64
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...some of its features come more from a coders ui than a musician.
This is the issue I see in every aspect of Reaper.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:45 AM   #65
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I would call it versatility vs predefined workflow.

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Old 05-08-2017, 09:28 AM   #66
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:59 PM   #67
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-I want ARA very much, too. And post-fader insert FX.

-Waves Vocal Rider doesn't HAVE a sidechain input. If it does, then it's not VST compliant. All you need to do is look at the pins window for the plugin.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:10 AM   #68
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Default Just adding my 2 cents

Just adding my 2 cents on an old post.
Every time I've introduced Reaper to someone (professional or not), they were really excited by the functionalities and the possibility to cutomize the UI to the extreme.
I like the default theme and anyone can download, modify or create own theme (just put some time on it).
HOWEVER, all where literally falling of their chairs when the saw how the stock plugins look.
I know they do sound great, but we shouldn't have to choose between good looking and good sounding plugins. Plus, what a contrast between Reaper's customizable UI and ReaPlugs UI.
I'm pretty sure Reaper's devs have their hands full but really, as Reaper comes relatively bear (fine with me), it would be really nice to have Reaplugs a bit more usable (plus you can combine reaEQ and reacomp to make a channelstrip).

Just sayin'
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:51 AM   #69
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I see quite a few people there saying that they do not like how it looks/works (UI/UX).

Very few saying they like it, and lots of people arguing without stating their opinion at all.
Most people who. like me, dont really give a damn so long as it is clear and legible and above all reliable, dont bother stating that they DONT dislike it.
Whiners gonna whine....

P.S> Not that you personally are a whiner, of course.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:18 AM   #70
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From what I have observed it seems the devs have a programmer's style of thinking aimed at INTERNAL mechanics and functioning. All stuff regarding EXTERNAL side is a burden and is made "just to have there something" instead of "to have the best possible".

If the devs force themself into work on the external side, it would not bring anything positive, just a frustration on their side and no improvement of what we have now on the exterior.

A solution might be to team up with someone else who is an external thinker and would nicely complement them.

Or maybe not, just me thinking.
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:21 AM   #71
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Another solution may be to team up with loads of users who have no trouble with what is provided and let the others, who apparently want a different program, go off to find a program that actually suits them.

I don't believe that any one program is ever going to satisfy everyone's wishes. Possibly the devs have also worked this out and have decided there's no point aiming for the impossible. So they might as well produce something that suits them and let anyone else who it suits use it too. I'm just happy that includes me.

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Old 06-06-2017, 06:11 AM   #72
Robert Randolph
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Most people who. like me, dont really give a damn so long as it is clear and legible and above all reliable, dont bother stating that they DONT dislike it.
Whiners gonna whine....

P.S> Not that you personally are a whiner, of course.
I am a whiner though. Just check my blog... I bitch about Reaper's UI plenty
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:42 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by MacFizz View Post
we shouldn't have to choose between good looking and good sounding plugins.
When buying a picture to hang on the wall, it's obviously a bad idea to choose the one that sounds bad when knocking at the frame, that we get for free with it.

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Old 06-06-2017, 07:55 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Most people who. like me, dont really give a damn so long as it is clear and legible and above all reliable, dont bother stating that they DONT dislike it.
Whiners gonna whine....

P.S> Not that you personally are a whiner, of course.
Actually just to be fair here, most people who don't care don't post, most people who like it don't post, in fact most people don't post full stop.
However, forums are read by most developers as a microcosm of the entire userbase and do normally constitute a good cross range of users.
So the "only unhappy users post" thing is not really true, if something is complained about or asked for a lot in the forum, we can generally accept that it is fair comment/suggestion.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:26 PM   #75
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From what I have observed it seems the devs have a programmer's style of thinking aimed at INTERNAL mechanics and functioning. All stuff regarding EXTERNAL side is a burden and is made "just to have there something" instead of "to have the best possible".

If the devs force themself into work on the external side, it would not bring anything positive, just a frustration on their side and no improvement of what we have now on the exterior.

A solution might be to team up with someone else who is an external thinker and would nicely complement them.

Or maybe not, just me thinking.
I like that thought. Hope it's noted and acted upon?!
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:35 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Actually just to be fair here, most people who don't care don't post, most people who like it don't post, in fact most people don't post full stop.
However, forums are read by most developers as a microcosm of the entire userbase and do normally constitute a good cross range of users.
So the "only unhappy users post" thing is not really true, if something is complained about or asked for a lot in the forum, we can generally accept that it is fair comment/suggestion.
(grin) or that the complaints are coming from people with either too much time on their hands, trolls from other DAWs wanting to stir the waters or people who just plain havent actually bothered to rtfm, etc. Lost count of how many times I have read a thread that starts "Reaper stinks because it cant..." only to then read the first response that tells the OP that it can & usually what page in the manual it is on.

OK - I am finished winding people up now. Feel free to castigate me!
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:39 AM   #77
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it took a while but my theme that im using and the layout is veryusefull , i followed this video .. if i hadnīt found this video i would have probably switched to another daw because of the impractical layout , should be the satndard layout for reaper TBH . you get a sidebar with big fader like in cubase or logic

tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKRQHzjqSPM

screenshot from my pc


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Old 06-07-2017, 05:58 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by slipstick View Post
I don't believe that any one program is ever going to satisfy everyone's wishes. Possibly the devs have also worked this out and have decided there's no point aiming for the impossible. So they might as well produce something that suits them and let anyone else who it suits use it too.
I'm genuinely interested to know who actually find the reaplugs UI (and I'm only talking about the UI here) adequate to any usage or inspiring in any ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
When buying a picture to hang on the wall, it's obviously a bad idea to choose the one that sounds bad when knocking at the frame, that we get for free with it.
Wow, funny analogy ;-)
But, reaplugs are part of Reaper, I don't think it's accurate to consider them free (as Reaper isn't free and they can be bought separately).
You would also imply that because a product is free, it can look like shit. Well there's plenty of freeware that not only sound great, but also look fantastic. I also know some expensive plugs that sound OK but with a close to unusable UI.
My fear is that Reaplugs haven't been updated since forever and more and more people using Reaper will never use them, and someday (maybe soon), they'll just be removed of Reaper because they're useless.

Also, I don't think a modern DAW can survive without gaining new users, professionals or hobbyists.
Professionals usually stick to what they know and what is perceived to be the industry standard (PT) and most hobbyist will aim at something appealing. E
ven though Reaper has a fantastic UI, when you try it out, fire up some Reaplugs, and compare it to a product such as StudioOne Prime that also comes with it's own plugs, well, StudioOne Prime takes the cake. And of course, performances and technicalities have nothing to do with it.
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Old 06-07-2017, 06:59 AM   #79
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Wow, funny analogy ;-)
Just swapping ears with eyes

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Originally Posted by MacFizz View Post
I don't think it's accurate to consider them free (as Reaper isn't free and they can be bought separately).
You can d/l all Reaper stock plugins for free and use them with other DAWs. So they are freebies by Cockos. -> http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/

-Michael
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:03 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ulf3000 View Post
it took a while but my theme that im using and the layout is very usefull , i followed this video .. if i hadnīt found this video i would have probably switched to another daw because of the impractical layout , should be the satndard layout for reaper TBH
There _should_ be a well organized way to allow new users to install the Layout they prefer.

My suggestion is:

- install ReaPack (visible at a predominant position) by default when installing Reaper
- manage layouts in ReaPack
- enhance ReaPack to allow for browsing pictures of Layouts.

-Michael
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