Frameless FX, anyone?

[DarkStar]

We can Float an FX, but how about an "Unframe" choice on the [FX] menu too? For those moment when all you need is the FX GUI itself.

There would also be a "Reframe" choice on the menu to restore the view.

In this mock-up, the relative screen space used is 100% : 78% : 66%. That's a significant saving and less clutter.



----------------------------
FR in Issue Tracker:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4259

[Xenakios]

There are technical reasons why this can't really work. The host can't cleanly do additional functionality on top of the bare plugin GUI, so things like moving the plugin GUI, hiding it, learning parameters for remote control etc would not be available or would need to be implemented via unreliable hack code.

[EvilDragon]

Things could, however, look more compact, for sure. For example:




The "i" button (Info) would show info about plugin, basically, what is currently in the plugin header (<plugin type>: <plugin name> - <track number> "<track name>").

[Xenakios]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Things could, however, look more compact, for sure. For example:

The "i" button (Info) would show info about plugin, basically, what is currently in the plugin header (<plugin type>: <plugin name> - <track number> "<track name>").

Yes, this seems more viable but has the problem that there's quite little grabbing area for initiating moving the plugin GUI.

[EvilDragon]

Patch name bar could be halved (it's way too wide IMHO anyways), leaving more room for grabbing.

[faun2500]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Things could, however, look more compact, for sure. For example:




The "i" button (Info) would show info about plugin, basically, what is currently in the plugin header (<plugin type>: <plugin name> - <track number> "<track name>").

YES! (please)

[faun2500]

What about something like 'ctrl click and drag' to move the window and not edit the parameters?

[EvilDragon]

Nah, that's one finger making things slower. This would be better:



No need for a modifier, there's empty space to drag the window around, and it can still fit pretty long preset names!

[run, megalodon]

^yes please, the title bar is not needed.

[faun2500]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Nah, that's one finger making things slower. This would be better:



No need for a modifier, there's empty space to drag the window around, and it can still fit pretty long preset names!

Agree.

[Xenakios]

So uh...Cockos...Make it happen?

[BenK-msx]

couldn't we have it frameless /or with a thin title frame until we mouse over the top of the gui, then all the preset and param / wet/dry gubbins appears? auto-hide style.
we only need that info on request, so don't show me till i need it.

(unlikely, but why not aim high!)

[Xenakios]

Originally Posted by BenK-msx

couldn't we have it frameless /or with a thin title frame until we mouse over the top of the gui, then all the preset and param / wet/dry gubbins appears? auto-hide style.
we only need that info on request, so don't show me till i need it.

(unlikely, but why not aim high!)

No, not reliably so that the mouse could move over the plugin GUI to cause the showing of the additional info to happen. The host (Reaper in this case) really shouldn't try to interfere with the plugin GUIs in that manner, although I know from my own experiments with plugin hosting it technically is possible at least on Windows(*) to do a hack like that. It is dirty and almost certain to cause problems eventually with some plugins. The reason why hosts have the "wrapper" window around the plugin GUIs is that that's how the VST and AU plugin systems are designed to work, so anything else would be an unreliable hack.

(*) Justin was of the opinion a similar thing might not be possible on OS-X at all, but that remained to be investigated.

[d.bop]

I like this idea.

How about this slight adjustment (using evildragon's mockup)


This way you can still see the track and vst names and most of the elements are in the usual locations. This title area would function as the click+drag area.

[EvilDragon]

In that case the info button doesn't make sense. Also, some plugins have smaller dimensions so there wouldn't be this available room after the preset dropdown (unless it too resized proportionally).

Not to mention that plugin and/or track name could be long and wouldn't fit. Info button is probably still the best solution. It could also contain the Comment field...

[DarkStar]

Phew, (I think) I'm glad that I started this debate. There are some good spin-off ideas here.

My original thought was for when you have done all your preset selection, MIDI Learning, Envelope displaying etc. Hence there is no no need for those FX wrapper controls at all at that stage.

So, how about this:
-- a minimal frame (2 pixels wide) so the GUI can be dragged around
-- an optional Info button, placeable in any corner of the FX GUI (and themeable!), to display / hide the FX wrapper controls:

[EvilDragon]

I don't think that info button can be placed on top of plugin GUI. Having a header is a cleaner solution in the end. But yeah, that header should be themeable.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by Xenakios

Yes, this seems more viable but has the problem that there's quite little grabbing area for initiating moving the plugin GUI.

ya, exactly, having the whole bar at the top in order to be able to drag plugin around is far more useful, than that small amount of screen real estate imo. i don't wanna have to search for the area where i can drag my plugin. anywhere along the top, except for some small parts at the ends, is so nice.

for me, the main problems with the plugins, size wise, is usually left and right, or the whole entire plugin is in the way, and not just the top part.

what would be a nice solution for that, but that would be a little bit more ressource heavy, would be something like sonar, yes, sonar manages to do some things well, is a modifier key that makes the plugin transparent, and would also make the plugin non tactile, meaning, you just make it translucent, and then can control your mixer, or whatever right through the plugin. essentially, just a ghost image of the plugin floating there, no longer the actual plugin.

alternatively, what would be just as cool, would be a quick hide/appear button for plugins, but this could develop issues, and might be slightly complex to program to behave correctly, if say, you went to hide your FX, and then decided you didn't want it anymore, and went to hide another one. stuff like that.

idk, may not be an issue, but there is some potential for issues there i think.

or, a modifier, that while held down, makes the plugin disappear, and when let go, it reappears. this would likely be the easiest option i think. the most stable. a "throw plugin to lowest level window while button held" action, or something of this nature. which i suspect would actually be 2 actions, throw selected plugin to background on keypress, and bring last touched plugin, or maybe lowest window, since you may touch another plugin, to front, on key depress. something like that?

idk, i'd need to be more of a programmer to find the most elegant solution for plugins getting in the way, but i don't think removing the windows bar at the top is it. seems like way too much work for way too little benefit to me, plus, it comes with a downside of not being able to move your plugin as easily.

[andysarchus]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

We have a winner! Surely this wouldn't be too difficult for the devs?

I don't see the point in having the name of the VST on the info bar as I'm already looking at it. Plenty of space to grab on to move the window around too.

I also like Sound asleep's idea of making the GUI partially transparent. Have no idea if that's possible though.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by andysarchus

We have a winner! Surely this wouldn't be too difficult for the devs?

I don't see the point in having the name of the VST on the info bar as I'm already looking at it. Plenty of space to grab on to move the window around too.

I also like Sound asleep's idea of making the GUI partially transparent. Have no idea if that's possible though.

plenty of room on that plugin maybe, but what of smaller ones as mentioned?

idk, the less far i have to move my mouse the better. making a window disappear via keypress and then reappear, is so fast and easy, and increases workflow a great deal more than idk, 10 pixels across the top of your plugin, or however many it is.

thx, ya it is possible for sure, but uses more ressources, and requires windows vista home premium or better i do believe.

but i think making a plugin vanish altogether and then reappear would be much easier, and just as awesome. in fact the more i'm talking about it, the more i'm jonesing for this. it would be sooo cool,

all i would need would be, plugin always on top, close/open plugin, and temporarily vanish plugin, and i'm fully set for plugins. that would be so amazing.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

plenty of room on that plugin maybe, but what of smaller ones as mentioned?

The preset dropdown would shrink width, and if the plugin is really that narrow, most of controls would go to the Info button, perhaps?


Remember that X-ray thing in Sonar creates big problems with some plugins.

[andysarchus]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

plenty of room on that plugin maybe, but what of smaller ones as mentioned?

The only problem I can see as far as small plugs go is the space for the patch name. Personally I'd have no problem if patch names were cut short in such a situation. If you really need to see the full name of the patch it could be displayed when you hit the 'info' button.

As far as your idea for making the plug's GUI vanish the then appear again, what's wrong with using the FX button on the TCP or MCP? Isn't that what it's there for?

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

The preset dropdown would shrink width, and if the plugin is really that narrow, most of controls would go to the Info button, perhaps?


Remember that X-ray thing in Sonar creates big problems with some plugins.

but think about how much work, you're putting into that, and think about the benefits, and think of how much work you'd be putting into making a plugin temporarily disappear, and think of how much benefit you'd get.

if i'm not mistaken you know well enough about programming to balance those out correctly.

i mean, ya, getting rid of the top bar, might be a little better, it might be a little cleaner, but making it adjust and all that, is more work, and i personally like to be able to move my plugin around from anywhere on top of it, and not find the smallish area where i can do that. I mean, there's a trade off there for sure, and it's not like all of a sudden i will feel like my plugins are so much more out of the way, and i can access behind them so much easier. in fact, i think i would notice very little difference, since the space freed up in proportion to the space still hidden is so minute.

ya the x-ray thing is not in reaper style anyways. they would do a more simple like send to back bring to front type of thing. the transparent thing is a little gimmicky anyways. i don't need that, but having them disappear temporarily and reappear would be so awesome.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by andysarchus

The only problem I can see as far as small plugs go is the space for the patch name. Personally I'd have no problem if patch names were cut short in such a situation. If you really need to see the full name of the patch it could be displayed when you hit the 'info' button.

As far as your idea for making the plug's GUI vanish the then appear again, what's wrong with using the FX button on the TCP or MCP? Isn't that what it's there for?

well, it's the same problem as having a small drag bar for one thing, it's a small area of control. I would need also to locate exactly which FX it is in the list of exactly which track, which also eats a bit of time, moving the mouse over there, takes a small amount of time, but time still, and also the FX button will often be hidden behind the plugin, or i'd have to move the plugin in order to be able to see my tracks, in order to be able to find which one i need to hide and then show again, and then click it, and then go and do my thing.

if i have a hide temporarily button, then if i want to make a change in my DAW, for a quick second, and then go back to my plugin, i press one button on my keyboard, and there you go, hidden, and then back again so i can continue working in the plugin.

actually, on second thought, i would prefer it if this show/hide feature, would hide ALL plugins, and then show all plugins, which would be far superior.

again, if i have multiple plugins open, i might have to move all of them in order to find which FX i would need to hide, or i might need to hide many of them.

what i do instead of hiding in these situations, is i drag my plugin down so that most of it is hidden out the bottom of my screen, which isn't THAT bad, unless i forgot to hit my "plugins always on top button" (which i hate, wish was selected by default always btw). but having the plugins quickly disappear and reappear would be so much better.

all my other stuff works that way.

my mouse has one button that hides and shows my mixer, so i can quickly go in and out of that. it also has a button to do the same thing with my piano roll.

that way, i can have these things take the entire screen, and use all of that real estate for what i'm doing, and if i need to go elsewhere, i don't have to fiddle with anything, one click, and i get full screen of what i want, another click and i'm back to full screen of other thing i want.

if my plugins worked that way too, that would be bliss.

in fact, a simple hide/show all open plugins action would be enough, which i think may actually exist... but, in order for this to be truly awesome, i would need that all my plugins are selected as always on top by default. otherwise, i may end up with some plugins i don't know about hidden underneath in hierarchy and showing all my plugins would bring up a bunch of stuff that i'd have to close, which would kind of defeat the purpose.

personally, i couldn't care less about the info button on the plugin. i usually never read that stuff. i have the plugins i'm using at any given time open, and the rest of the time closed. if i have multiple ones that are the same open at one time, then judging by the meters and settings and stuff it's easy and fast for me to know which is which.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

but making it adjust and all that

IIRC the preset field already shrinks depending on plugin width, so those adjustments are already coded in...

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

IIRC the preset field already shrinks depending on plugin width, so those adjustments are already coded in...

oh, ok, so you'd just have to make relatively minor adjustements, in order to reserve a given space? a given percentage? a given set number of pixels?

idk, but whatever it is, you have to tell it still.

idk, you can differ with me on opinion, to each their own, but still, imo, it's a much better solution to treat plugin real estate with a disappear, reappear feature, rather than compressing the top bar.

like i said, i prefer to full screen what i'm using and making it vanish into a full screen of whatever else i want to use rather than have smaller windows sharing monitor space. i only ever need to see what i'm using at any given time, and the more space on my monitor i can use for the task at hand the better.

plugins are a bit different, because i may want to use multiple of them at once, and the controls would be too complex to be able to call up specific ones, but hide/show mixer full screen, hide/show piano roll full screen, and hide/show all open plugins (with always on top set as default for all plugins), that's all i need, and then all my screen real estate issues are gone. totally gone. not slightly improved, but gone.

[EvilDragon]

Check out bblean shell for Windows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVWNtz4G2gg

[Sound asleep]

wooohoooo! my prayers are answered. toggle all floating fx windows exists. not sure why there is a (!) next to action. i'm a little worried about that one, but now, all i need to do is find a way to get my FX windows to be always on top by default.

sweet. i love days where reaper gets better.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Check out bblean shell for Windows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVWNtz4G2gg

very cool. but my DAW computer is used for other things too, and i love my windows gui for doing windows things.

you wouldn't happen to have a solution for having floating FX set to always on top by default though would you?

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

you wouldn't happen to have a solution for having floating FX set to always on top by default though would you?

Once you pin a floating plugin manually, a pin state of "1" is stored in "reaper-pinstates.ini". From then on, unless you manually unpin, it will be opened up "pinned to the top" ...

... except for the times when it inexplicably won't be pinned ... :-s

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by timlloyd

Once you pin a floating plugin manually, a pin state of "1" is stored in "reaper-pinstates.ini". From then on, unless you manually unpin, it will be opened up "pinned to the top" ...

... except for the times when it inexplicably won't be pinned ... :-s

what i was hoping for, would be that every time i open a new plugin, initialize a new plugin, it is set by default to always on top. this way i don't have to click the pin at all unless for some odd reason i wouldn't want the plugin on top. pretty sure i will never want that though.

is there anywhere in some ini file, i could set this default to 1 for all new plugins or something?

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

is there anywhere in some ini file, i could set this default to 1 for all new plugins or something?

Probably not - plugins IDs are stored in the ini as some kind of hex value; unless you know how to generate one for any given plugin, then we're all out of luck

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by timlloyd

Probably not - plugins IDs are stored in the ini as some kind of hex value; unless you know how to generate one for any given plugin, then we're all out of luck

shitty.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

wooohoooo! my prayers are answered. toggle all floating fx windows exists. not sure why there is a (!) next to action. i'm a little worried about that one, but now, all i need to do is find a way to get my FX windows to be always on top by default.

sweet. i love days where reaper gets better.

... NOOO! nevermind. this is not a suitable solution.

it toggles all floating FX alright, except, it shows all the closed ones and hides all the shown ones. not really all that useful as far as i can tell, unless you always either want to use half of all your plugins at one time, and half of all your other plugins at another time.

....dang.

to the feature requests page.

[Sound asleep]

If you come across this thread, and any of this interests you, i have setup some links for features requests related to this in my signature. the OP also has one setup for his idea as well, that you can find if you look for it.

[Shan]

Some good suggestions in this thread, but what happens if you use the secondary UI? A host of other issues now show up:

[img]http://img803.**************/img803/8761/secondaryui.gif[/img]

And if we ever get the ability to WALTER/Theme plug-ins it will probably be done via the secondary UI, which we can currently only theme the slider and slider bg at this point.

Shane

[Some Guy]

i don't like the direction this is going to be honest. fx is one of the things i just can't get used to in reaper, i'd much prefer it to be like in logic:



you have the drop down menu to switch to other inserts on the same track AND a drop down menu to show a different track (not possible in reaper). AND it's all much cleaner than it is in reaper. huge waster of space on the left of the fx docker, though it does have it's advantages. i say make it like in logic and have an arrow to show and hide the fx list.

more on topic, you could have a button to minimize the title bar. that seems like a good option to me

[ivan.lt]

Originally Posted by Some Guy

more on topic, you could have a button to minimize the title bar. that seems like a good option to me

... with the ability to assign it to a middle (fourth, etc) mouse button -- middle-click anywhere within the plugin window.

[DarkStar]

Here is another example of the benefit of frameless FX:

Current implementation:


Mock-up:


And, I stress, all the FX Wrapper controls would still be available in the FX Chain window - just click the [fx] button on the track.

[Triode]

While reducing the visual clutter created by plugins I'd love it if each time a new one was opened it would replace the last opened.