Old 06-23-2022, 01:50 PM   #41
enroe
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The vast majority of users here aren’t out for offensive trolling, and the very few people who find offense probably don’t realize that being offended raises blood pressure and heart rate, literally reducing their own lifespan over something completely avoidable
Yes, +1.

In addition, we should distinguish that there are 1. purely
rational scientific arguments, and 2. but also visionary
fantastic ideas that are more utopian than realistic.

Both kinds of arguments are interesting, the latter even
more entertaining.
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:05 PM   #42
martifingers
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Mmmmhh... I don't think music will be about communication.
For two reasons:

1. If the aliens are communicating really closely, if they're
going to visit us all, then they must have developed some
kind of FTL drive. They would be so technically superior to
us that it would go beyond our imagination.

2. Communication only succeeds through what we and the aliens
have in common. So what do we have in common with them? What
will we both know? Answer: The physics of space and mathematics.

So everyone knows the hydrogen atom, and the natural numbers,
the whole numbers, the real numbers, the number "e", etc. An
initial communication would take place by the means of this.
But not via music.
Even this may not be possible. It is real mind bending stuff but watch this. It is a serious challenge to what we normally think (I think!) - and not from a crank either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYdQYZ9Rj4
The challenge is mainly to the Standard Model and related models of physics - I am not sure how Hofffman's approach would rate maths and logic...

BTW I am sorry that karbomusic isn't likely to give us a reaction
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:14 PM   #43
michael diemer
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They're listening to Elvis. I have it on good authority that the Sirians have been sending Elvis clones all over the galaxy. Ours got bored and left the building. Er, planet.
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:23 PM   #44
enroe
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@martifingers:

Well, I wouldn't be that pessimistic.

Hoffmann is right in the sense that our visual and
auditory perceptions, which have been adapted by
evolution in such a way that we can survive in our
environment, do not show what is objectively true.

But mathematics and physics are different: We can
measure objective reality - that's what physicists
do. We can - with the help of mathematics - make
predictions about the real world. And that's exactly
what the aliens will be able to do too. So mathematics
and physics - these are the media with which one
should be able to communicate with aliens.

However, there could be a problem: Our understanding
of the universe - ie the current Standard Model -
could be very incomplete. This means that we humans
have no idea what "dark matter" is. And we certainly
don't know who or what the "dark energy" is. It could
be that we just seem too stupid to the aliens.
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Old 06-23-2022, 04:14 PM   #45
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LOL @elvis!! very good.
Have to say lex fridman is perfectly suited for his role..especially love how he closes eyes to draw from that wonderful intuitive vault..superb.
Am 53 mins in..not 1 mention of tesla?? lolwut.
Am nodding head here,not shaking it..these questions and answers should have been discussed in depth years ago.
Nice.Thanks.
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Old 06-23-2022, 04:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Reapology View Post
Ok- advanced apologies if anyone feels upset or offended in any way.
Just a few terrestrial thoughts..
Thanks.
If you mean me, no not at all - I'm hard to offend. I did think it was odd you guys are opining all over the place (which is fine) then I have to provide evidence for the things we can't be 100% sure of but do have the most demonstrable evidence for thus far.

All I meant by "I'm out" is that under those restrictions, nothing much I can add to the thread.

Take care!
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Old 06-23-2022, 04:52 PM   #47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk

I think more likely that.
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Old 06-24-2022, 03:11 AM   #48
martifingers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
@martifingers:

Well, I wouldn't be that pessimistic.

Hoffmann is right in the sense that our visual and
auditory perceptions, which have been adapted by
evolution in such a way that we can survive in our
environment, do not show what is objectively true.

But mathematics and physics are different: We can
measure objective reality - that's what physicists
do. We can - with the help of mathematics - make
predictions about the real world. And that's exactly
what the aliens will be able to do too. So mathematics
and physics - these are the media with which one
should be able to communicate with aliens.

However, there could be a problem: Our understanding
of the universe - ie the current Standard Model -
could be very incomplete. This means that we humans
have no idea what "dark matter" is. And we certainly
don't know who or what the "dark energy" is. It could
be that we just seem too stupid to the aliens.
Hi. I am struggling to understand Hoffman's position which seems to have various issues such as relying on equations that would appear to depend on the very reality he seems to be questioning (!) but leaving all that aside and granting his hypothesis for the sake of argument, it is not all all clear to me that the tools we have developed (maths, logic and most certainly physics) are reliable indicators of an objective reality.

Sure we use scientific instruments etc. but maybe we only use them to measure the world we think is out there? I suppose the equivalent would be the Matrix idea - recall the scene about the juicy steak etc. The point is that in the matrix senses and any instruments used would be not "real".

I guess this comes down to whether abstract reasoning (logic, mathematics etc.) is invented or discovered. For instance already know mathematics is fundamentally limited (Godel's Theorem) - is that a clue it's our invention?

You may well be right but I don't think the answer is obvious and I have a feeling professional philosophers (of which I am definitely NOT one!) may disagree on this.

Surely behind much of this discussion is the question nature of "consciousness" since if aliens don't have any of that this music issue is irelevant. There seems to be as many views on that as there are ...er... musical genres!🙂
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Old 06-24-2022, 03:27 AM   #49
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So Starman comes to greet us and the first thing heard was hiphop...

40 years ago the music of now would surely sound "Alien " even to us non aliens.

Perhaps he came to greet us but we must have blown his mind..

ther'e a star man waiting in the sky ..........
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