Old 02-06-2020, 08:48 AM   #1
netphreak
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Default OSC support in Reaper - a bit neglected?

Now - first of all - I'm a really happy Reaper user, and appreciate all the hard work many people put into this software - Thank you!

One of the main reasons for me to use Reaper is the OSC support. It let me build hardware controllers for many needs - maybe because I'm a middle aged man, but knobs and buttons works better in a studio situations in time critical situations.

But I can't help being a little disappointed about the "support" for OSC... Every update of Reaper I rush to read the changelog - to see if there's any signs of software developers listening to the many requests for improvements in the OSC corner. But... not much... There's been 1 bugfix since April last year... "divide by zero bug" which I haven't discovered or heard about.

Sorry to sound grumpy, but why are all wishes and requests neglected? Is OSC dead in Reaper? Or is it just that OSC have it's flaws, and our requests are not possible to deliver because Reaper doesn't write OSC?
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:15 AM   #2
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AFAIK, CSI already supports OSC, but you supposedly needs to create configuration files matching your controller and your intended workflow.
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:31 AM   #3
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AFAIK, CSI already supports OSC, but you supposedly needs to create configuration files matching your controller and your intended workflow.
-Michael
I didn't get this one at all mschnell... Perhaps irony, a joke on my behalf, reply to the wrong thread - I'll go with a good joke I didn't understand (reaper, dead, whatnot).
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:53 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by netphreak View Post

Sorry to sound grumpy, but why are all wishes and requests neglected? Is OSC dead in Reaper? Or is it just that OSC have it's flaws, and our requests are not possible to deliver because Reaper doesn't write OSC?
perhaps a list of feature requests is required? I don't think the devs are frequent OSC users so anything you may need to remind them of what is broken or not implemented and why it is important.
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Old 02-06-2020, 12:21 PM   #5
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perhaps a list of feature requests is required? I don't think the devs are frequent OSC users so anything you may need to remind them of what is broken or not implemented and why it is important.
Yeah, software developers are often focused on what they do best - write code

Maybe you're right that the almost 800 post long thread stapled to the top of this forum does nothing good at all - as it is now, it's a huge mix of feature requests and, well... lot's of things.

How to organize this, making it more attractive for the dev's to read it, and hopefully find it worthy of an effort to look into a few of them?
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Old 02-06-2020, 12:48 PM   #6
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Yeah, software developers are often focused on what they do best - write code

Maybe you're right that the almost 800 post long thread stapled to the top of this forum does nothing good at all - as it is now, it's a huge mix of feature requests and, well... lot's of things.

How to organize this, making it more attractive for the dev's to read it, and hopefully find it worthy of an effort to look into a few of them?
CSI supports OSC, here's a demo using TouchOSC, it's shown on iPad/iPhone but is also running successfully on Android.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byqW...ature=youtu.be
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:11 PM   #7
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CSI supports OSC, here's a demo using TouchOSC, it's shown on iPad/iPhone but is also running successfully on Android.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byqW...ature=youtu.be
Now, there's CIA again, when does FBI enter the scene?

I'm sure "The control surface integration project" is a brilliant effort, and of good use to many. But that project is also limited by poor implementation of OSC in Reaper. Sure, there's always possible to do workarounds to achieve the goal, but... Why not try to fix the problem instead? If your boat takes in water, you could buy a pump, right - boat's not sinking, goal achieved. But wouldn't it be wiser to plug the hole?

Let's say I want a simple stomp box, with the the sole purpose of disable a FX on a track (i.e #28), and enable another FX on the same track. No problem with OSC. Now, in this case the problem everyone will face will be: There's no other ID to use other than the track number! What happens when a track is inserted before my track? My tracknumber becomes #29, and my stomp box controls the wrong track.

I have MANY more examples of simple controller tasks generating complex workarounds... Sometimes the boat sinks because of the weight of pump #12...

And then the frustration grows, thinking of how little code needed in Reaper (now, that's a guess from me as a "no Reaper dev") to fix this.

Again, I could fixate my eyes on the CSI "framework", but for my simple stomp box it seems overkill...
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:33 PM   #8
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Let's say I want a simple stomp box, with the the sole purpose of disable a FX on a track (i.e #28), and enable another FX on the same track. No problem with OSC. Now, in this case the problem everyone will face will be: There's no other ID to use other than the track number! What happens when a track is inserted before my track? My tracknumber becomes #29, and my stomp box controls the wrong track.
Why do you need OSC for this? You can simply put ReaLearn somewhere in your project with the tracks you want to control and track ID becomes irrelevant. E.g. I have a controller dedicated to my VCA master tracks, so ReaLearn is on a hidden track in my default project, allowing my faders to always control specific tracks, no matter their name or number.

I use OSC for touch control from my phone/tablet but it's not a popular feature. I think it's too technical and poorly documented for most. I could never get a lick of help when I had problems, though I eventually solved them on my own.
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:36 PM   #9
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Why do you need OSC for this? You can simply put ReaLearn somewhere in your project with the tracks you want to control and track ID becomes irrelevant. E.g. I have a controller dedicated to my VCA master tracks, so ReaLearn is on a hidden track in my default project, allowing my faders to always control specific tracks, no matter their name or number.
How should I physically connect my stomp box to Reaper?

Even if this should turn out to be a superior solution, I don't see any reason to *not* fix issues with OSC in Reaper? Equals getting a new boat because the other one has a hole...

Last edited by netphreak; 02-06-2020 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Added note
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:40 PM   #10
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How should I physically connect my stomp box to Reaper?
MIDI, I'd imagine. How else? Unless your box has wireless networking?
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:51 PM   #11
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MIDI, I'd imagine. How else? Unless your box has wireless networking?
The LAN Reaper is connected to has WIFI, yes. So I could call ReaLearn over TCP/IP?

Can ReaLearn also send response messages back to the controller?

Last edited by netphreak; 02-06-2020 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:59 PM   #12
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TouchOSC Bridge is free and I use that to get network MIDI into Reaper. Yea ReaLearn can provide feedback. It's awesome. Only issue I've had is that if you have multiple tabbed projects with ReaLearn, they can interfere with each other in the background.

Oh, one other issue is that you will get a crash if you try to duplicate ReaLearn and then delete the original. You can run multiple instances, but always drag them in from the fx browser.
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Old 02-06-2020, 03:43 PM   #13
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Now, there's CIA again, when does FBI enter the scene?. But that project is also limited by poor implementation of OSC in Reaper.
Incorrect, CSI OSC implementation is completely independent of Reaper OSC -- CSI handles all the network traffic/packets/ etc., internally, nothing to do with Reaper OSC.

Therefore CSI is not limited by Reaper OSC implementation, CSI is limited by CSI OSC implementation
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Old 02-06-2020, 04:37 PM   #14
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So - workarounds for poor OSC implementations in Reaper... Again, I hope the Reaper Team steps up and tell their customer the facts soon: OSC in Reaper is experimental, deprecated, undocumented and incomplete. Again, I know this sounds grumpy, but I say it to warn potential new Reaper users to go down this path.

Used an hour now trying to send OSC messages to TouchOSC Bridge. I'm not even confident it's listening for OSC messages. No configuration, no information on listening port number, hardly any information... It's adding two midi ports to Reaper, that's it. Can't see how this brings any wifi connections to the table. I was about to install the "PP-Extended" software they refer to, but it's 6 years old and end of life.

Will have a look at the 6400 post thread to see if CSI is viable workaround.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:35 PM   #15
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@Geoff, there's one thing I'm curious about:

Can CSI control the send levels via touch mode?
Touch mode is something that cannot be controlled via the API.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:47 PM   #16
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@Geoff, there's one thing I'm curious about:

Can CSI control the send levels via touch mode?
Touch mode is something that cannot be controlled via the API.
Don't know what you mean by touch mode, please explain.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:52 PM   #17
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Touch mode, like:
You move the fader, value is recorded, when you release, the automation gets back to read mode.
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:00 PM   #18
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Touch mode, like:
You move the fader, value is recorded, when you release, the automation gets back to read mode.
Ahh, that would depend on your OSC software, if the OSC software sends touch CSI can handle it.
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:15 PM   #19
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Wow okay, because when I checked the API because of a script I was working, I couldn’t make it work,
so assumed CSI can’t do it either. Or are you using something else than the API?
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:35 PM   #20
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Wow okay, because when I checked the API because of a script I was working, I couldn’t make it work,
so assumed CSI can’t do it either. Or are you using something else than the API?
I use the C++ API, have no idea how it differs from the script API.
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Old 02-06-2020, 07:15 PM   #21
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Ok, thanks, will check touch with CSI!
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:16 AM   #22
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So - workarounds for poor OSC implementations in Reaper...
I totally disagree,

As for using Control surfaces hundreds of different devices and hundreds of different workflow preferences need to be considered, it makes perfectly sense to have this implemented in appropriate add-ons, instead of bloating the main DAW program with stuff only needed by those who actually use a control surface.

I consider it just courtesy that the Reaper distribution comes with a handfull of exemplary Control Surfaces options for some seemingly common cases.

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Old 02-07-2020, 01:16 AM   #23
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I don't see how that's a "total disagreement". Do you believe there would be a "need" to have OSC in CIA if Reaper did a better job supporting it in the first place?

Perhaps you are right - OSC shouldn't have been in Reaper at all, better having it in a plugin. But then again, I have no clue how big a footprint it makes - my guess is "insignificant".

Bottom line: Remove OSC from Reaper, let users know it's unsupported in Reaper - or fix it in Reaper. Don't just ignore it.
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Old 02-07-2020, 06:56 AM   #24
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better having it in a plugin.
That is exactly what CSI does in the case you describe: integrating a predefined complex control surface.

Reaper itself can do other stuff with OSC by it's own definition of OSC messages (AFAI understand modifiable by a configuration file), e.g. sending Meter information, sendind position information, ...

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Old 02-07-2020, 11:50 AM   #25
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Yes, I know. But there's a several major differences between a third party plugin programmed by enthusiasts for free - and officially supported features made by professional programmers in a enterprise business.

Now, some of us use Reaper for fun and spare time usage. Others use it as a tool for music production for a living. Maybe Reaper wants to ignore professionals completely, but I seriously doubt it. What do professionals want? Alpha plugins completely dependable on a few (and I thank them from the bottom of my heart) volunteers trying to make the world a better place - or enterprise supported features with documentation?

To learn what the CSI plugin can/can't deliver you can read the 6400 posts thread about it, or trying to figure it out on your own, with the help of a few lines in a readme file. I gave it a shot last night, trying to solve my problem in the example I gave with the simple stomp box. The stomp box holds an Arduino micro controller, a switch and an ethernet board, communicating with Reaper over OSC. It was pretty straight forward installing the plugin, and adding an "OSC surface" with IP, port etc. But nowhere could I find any information about what OSC code my stomp box should send to CSI. On to the 1600 posts thread then... Sorry, after an hour I gave up. I can't see how this is a "better" alternative.

I fear my comments could be taken as criticism about free plugins. It really isn't! I just enlighten some of the problems with "free". For a hobby project - cool! For others it may be a real pita stumbling around in the dark as they REALLY should use the time on mixing last nights recordings.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by netphreak View Post
Yes, I know. But there's a several major differences between a third party plugin programmed by enthusiasts for free - and officially supported features made by professional programmers in a enterprise business.

Now, some of us use Reaper for fun and spare time usage. Others use it as a tool for music production for a living. Maybe Reaper wants to ignore professionals completely, but I seriously doubt it. What do professionals want? Alpha plugins completely dependable on a few (and I thank them from the bottom of my heart) volunteers trying to make the world a better place - or enterprise supported features with documentation?

To learn what the CSI plugin can/can't deliver you can read the 6400 posts thread about it, or trying to figure it out on your own, with the help of a few lines in a readme file. I gave it a shot last night, trying to solve my problem in the example I gave with the simple stomp box. The stomp box holds an Arduino micro controller, a switch and an ethernet board, communicating with Reaper over OSC. It was pretty straight forward installing the plugin, and adding an "OSC surface" with IP, port etc. But nowhere could I find any information about what OSC code my stomp box should send to CSI. On to the 1600 posts thread then... Sorry, after an hour I gave up. I can't see how this is a "better" alternative.

I fear my comments could be taken as criticism about free plugins. It really isn't! I just enlighten some of the problems with "free". For a hobby project - cool! For others it may be a real pita stumbling around in the dark as they REALLY should use the time on mixing last nights recordings.
Thank for the thanks

I think the issue here is everything is so fluid, it can be tricky to decide where to start.

In answer to your question "what OSC code my stomp box should send to CSI", it's whatever you want.

Here are a couple of OSC Widget definitions:

Code:
Widget DisplayLowerD8
    FB_Processor /DisplayLowerD8
WidgetEnd

Widget RotaryPushA1
    Control /RotaryPushA1
    FB_Processor /RotaryPushA1
WidgetEnd
The first Widget is a display -- there is a FeedbackProcessor -- CSI sends /DisplayLowerD8 + a display string -- the display string is dictated by what Action you map to this display -- don't worry about that for now.

The second Widget also has a Control, in this case a button.

When CSI receives a /RotaryPushA1 message it executes whatever Action(s) you have mapped that button to.

This mapping takes place in Zones and is simple key-value pairs -- say we wanted to execute the Reaper Action Play when RotaryPushA1 is pressed the Zone file would look like:

Code:
Zone aZone
    RotaryPushA1 Play
ZoneEnd
It's got a few more arcane chunks, but mostly it's dead simple.
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:14 PM   #27
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How would I take "/track/@/toggle @" where the first "@" is any number from 1 to 99 and the second "0" or "1", and trigger a LUA script that executes various things depending on the two values (all of which the LUA docs already explain) and then sending out OSC commands with various values (e.g. send out formatted commands like "/tab/@" where "@" is a string generated by the script).
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Old 02-07-2020, 02:11 PM   #28
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Yes, I know. But there's a several major differences between a third party plugin programmed by enthusiasts for free - and officially supported features made by professional programmers in a enterprise business.
Yep. The second will need ongoing support by the company and hence force them to hire more staff (count appropriately quadratic regarding the resulting output, due to friction loss), and hence increase the product's price enormously.

Not very desirable for a feature only used by a few customers.

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What do professionals want? Alpha plugins completely dependable on a few
Before deciding to use Reaper I tested Forte for my main project. I needed to enhance Reaper by the SWS (-> LiveConfoigs) pugin. I am very happy for that decision as Forte was out of business shortly afterwards.

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Old 02-07-2020, 04:01 PM   #29
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Yep. The second will need ongoing support by the company and hence force them to hire more staff (count appropriately quadratic regarding the resulting output, due to friction loss), and hence increase the product's price enormously.

Not very desirable for a feature only used by a few customers.
Amazing how you jump to that conclusion... Who says customer support regarding OSC should be included in the product price? I'm talking about proper documentation, bugfixing and some will to add/improve basic functionality now and then. Enterprise customer support (read: help to make customer projects work) cost money, that's no lie - and could be offered for a price pr. hour, and/or as a yearly fee. For those interested. Then there would be a *very* minimal added cost to Reaper, more likely an added income to the company (several reasons outside the scope of this thread).
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Old 02-07-2020, 04:05 PM   #30
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Geoff Waddington - "fluid" is a spot on description Will read/test your post thoroughly tomorrow - looks like a good kick in the right direction!
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:35 PM   #31
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*very* minimal added cost to Reaper
I understood you were discussing using Control Surface devices via OSC. This is not implemented at all in the basic Reaper distribution and it's a huge issue on it's own.

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Old 02-08-2020, 03:15 AM   #32
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Geoff Waddington - I forked this to keep it clean: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....98#post2242198

mschnell - I don't understand how your reply is related to what you quote. OSC is implemented in Reaper, that's what this thread is all about. OSC via CSI was only suggested as an alternative.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:14 AM   #33
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i donīt really get it...
Someone promoting to get rid of OSC altogether because it is broken, i have to chime in.

I have been using OSC in reaper without CSI to great extent over the years. I donīt see what is supposed to be broken.
I use lemur right now, but before had been digging into osc<->pdextended<->midi.

The only bug i ever encountered was fixed within one or two days...(!!!!)
That was indeed the divide by 0 bug, sending Reaper a message that your controller has now 0 tracks would crash Reaper to desktop.
Not any more.

So i find the system in reaper pretty good, using a .ReaperOsc config file and direct action binding. Has been working solid for years.
I was happy to discover that by now it is also possible to pass a variable from osc to a script (get_action_context).

But i also see stuff i wish for not coming... something propably normal with feature requests.

I would love to have messages to and from Reaper for:

TrackColor
Folderstate

I would like to know:
Number of tracks in Mixer so i can set the number of faders dynamically in lemur...

And most of all, cause this would make all of my other feature requests obsolete:

Send full messages to ReaScript and allow Reascript to send any Messaage to OscOutput. That would rock completly crazy hyper blasting!

Maybe one day, if not it still works great and is the best way to get parameter feedback out of reaper.
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:01 AM   #34
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i donīt really get it...

...

And most of all, cause this would make all of my other feature requests obsolete:

Send full messages to ReaScript and allow Reascript to send any Messaage to OscOutput. That would rock completly crazy hyper blasting!

Maybe one day, if not it still works great and is the best way to get parameter feedback out of reaper.
That's the point, really - without that, it's not really full OSC support - it's limited to what the developers make available via ReaperOSC. Scripting is a feature of Reaper and it's not fully available via OSC. (Limited parsing, no generation.)
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:29 AM   #35
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jrp - I use Reapers own OSC with some success also - but it’s so limited in features. Sure, for some it may be sufficient, especially those with few tracks mostly working alone. For others with 10 musicians, and 100+ tracks, the lack of trackid makes it impossible to use for automation of individual tracks. I have put some of the tracks needing lots of automations on top, and really never change in order.

I didn’t say I want Reaper to REMOVE the OSC implementation already there, but announce they’re not going to do anything to add missing features and that the features in existence is rather limited. I would probably not started learning OSC, how to get OSC working on microcontrollers etc if I knew up front how limited it is in Reaper, and chances for it to ever be addressed is slim at best.
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Old 02-08-2020, 12:02 PM   #36
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I didn’t say I want Reaper to REMOVE the OSC implementation already there
Matter of fact, you did.

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Bottom line: Remove OSC from Reaper
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:27 PM   #37
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I stand corrected - that sentence came out wrong, and is not my honest opinion, because of all the hard work lots of people (me included) have already spent making their devices/applications work.
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:39 PM   #38
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Send full messages to ReaScript and allow Reascript to send any Messaage to OscOutput. That would rock completly crazy hyper blasting!
I understand that Beyond Reaper works exactly this way. If it's possible in Python it also should be possible in other scripting languages.

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Old 02-08-2020, 07:15 PM   #39
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But I can't help being a little disappointed about the "support" for OSC... Every update of Reaper I rush to read the changelog - to see if there's any signs of software developers listening to the many requests for improvements in the OSC corner. But... not much... There's been 1 bugfix since April last year... "divide by zero bug" which I haven't discovered or heard about.

Sorry to sound grumpy, but why are all wishes and requests neglected? Is OSC dead in Reaper? Or is it just that OSC have it's flaws, and our requests are not possible to deliver because Reaper doesn't write OSC?
If you check other Software Companies, you would most likely find that they also do not support OSC completely yet.
Even a lot of hardware manufactures do not fully support it yet.

Did you ever think, that maybe your hardware does not fully support OSC yet?


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Old 02-09-2020, 01:24 AM   #40
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to me it seemed great that we have osc at all...
But if "OSC-support" means "full controll of Reaper", like with custom actions, scripting and c++ plugins, then yes: thatīs missing.

One big problem defnitly is that it is very hard to see all the options out there.
These are advanced techniques and there are no out of the box solutions with full documentation.

And even if there is documentation, when you are just starting out even the description in the default.ReaperOSC can easily be above your head.

I had to look at what others have done and go with tiny steps...

Beyond Python - i never got this going. Is it even still a recomended option?
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