Old 11-13-2019, 06:18 PM   #1
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default Reaverb as send clipping

I use Reaverb as a send for all my verbs. I'm having trouble getting the right sound without clipping the send by a significant amount.

Turn up send, sounds fine, fader clips. Turn down send, clipping disappears, so does reverb. What am I missing?
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2019, 08:55 PM   #2
nait
Human being with feelings
 
nait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 1,391
Default

Since you're doing it as a send, do you have the Wet slider at 0db, and dry at -inf? By default, the signal I think works out to being your full dry audio (0db dry), plus a bit of the wet signal (-12db wet), so you're amplifying the dry signal on the reverb, and adding a bit of reverb. There could be a reason to want that, but it's not likely that's what you're trying to do.

Outside of that, is your reverb track at an appropriate volume? I usually keep it at 0db, and adjust the send amount. You of course mentioned adjusting the send amount, but if you left the wet/dry sliders as is, then again, you're going to be duplicating your dry signal.
__________________
My Rig (also serves as my gaming PC): MSI Mag X570 Tomahawk Mobo, Ryzen R9 3900X, 32GB RAM, Samsung 960 Evo 500gb NVMe, Crucial 1TB NVMe, NVidia RTX 2080 Super, Arturia Minifuse 2, Nektar Impact LX25+ MIDI Controller Keyboard.
nait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2019, 09:29 PM   #3
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nait View Post
Since you're doing it as a send, do you have the Wet slider at 0db, and dry at -inf? By default, the signal I think works out to being your full dry audio (0db dry), plus a bit of the wet signal (-12db wet), so you're amplifying the dry signal on the reverb, and adding a bit of reverb. There could be a reason to want that, but it's not likely that's what you're trying to do.

Outside of that, is your reverb track at an appropriate volume? I usually keep it at 0db, and adjust the send amount. You of course mentioned adjusting the send amount, but if you left the wet/dry sliders as is, then again, you're going to be duplicating your dry signal.
Wet is 0db, dry -inf. All sends post-fader. Reverb buss dumps to sub-master buss.

I'm having trouble finding a balance between the send amount and the fader level.

Honestly I'm also having trouble even hearing reverb tail. I'm experimenting with Hopkins EMT IRs.

I've even experimented with the -18db, no src gain options. It's either way too much or I can't hear it.
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 01:47 AM   #4
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
fader clips.
(If I am right supposing that you don't hear any clipping: just for the record and suggesting to use correct terms...)

What do you mean by "fader clips" ?

Within the DAW Floating Point format is used and hence there is no clipping.

Do you mean the meter with the fader shows a red signal meaning zero dB ?

That might be visually unwanted, but it's not harmful in any way.

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 09:24 AM   #5
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
(If I am right supposing that you don't hear any clipping: just for the record and suggesting to use correct terms...)

What do you mean by "fader clips" ?

Within the DAW Floating Point format is used and hence there is no clipping.

Do you mean the meter with the fader shows a red signal meaning zero dB ?

That might be visually unwanted, but it's not harmful in any way.

-Michael
Correct. I do not HEAR any clipping.

It's just the peak meter hitting +10db sometimes.

That much apparent clipping makes me uncomfortable, though I've never HEARD anything amiss.
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 10:54 AM   #6
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,271
Default

All that really matters in the end is how loud it is when it gets to that submaster. If it’s not also hitting +10 over there, then it’s being attenuated along the way somewhere. Is that the send level from the verb bus?
ashcat_lt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 12:58 PM   #7
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
Default

Is the fader on the track you're sending from turned down? Have you tried pre-fader send?
Judders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 01:43 PM   #8
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Is the fader on the track you're sending from turned down? Have you tried pre-fader send?
I have tried turning down the fader. I can keep it from clipping, but the reverb disappears.

I tried pre-fader last night, but all the advice I've read says post-fader for a reverb aux, so I didn't keep it that way long. Stupid internet.

Let's change tacks here and discuss what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying for a ca. 1970-era Atlantic Records plate sound. In those days, the plate was tied directly to the desk channels on an echo send. That's my understanding anyway.

Is pre-fader what I want?
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 02:37 PM   #9
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
Is pre-fader what I want?
Do you want to probably have to change the send level every time you adjust the fader, or just let the fader do it for you?

If the reverb bus is showing +10, then whatever is coming out of that fader is hitting +10. If it’s not still at +10 when it gets to the submaster, then WTF is turning it back down after the fader?!? The only thing I can think would be the send level, but I’m not looking at it and you didn’t answer me the first time. If it IS still +10 when it gets to the sub, then something is definitely wrong.
ashcat_lt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 03:12 PM   #10
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Do you want to probably have to change the send level every time you adjust the fader, or just let the fader do it for you?

If the reverb bus is showing +10, then whatever is coming out of that fader is hitting +10. If it’s not still at +10 when it gets to the submaster, then WTF is turning it back down after the fader?!? The only thing I can think would be the send level, but I’m not looking at it and you didn’t answer me the first time. If it IS still +10 when it gets to the sub, then something is definitely wrong.
Sorry, didn't see your initial post.

The submaster is clipping.

It goes to a master fx buss, which is basically where I put all my 2buss processing. So master comp, eq, tape emu. That dumps to a final empty submaster, then the actual Reaper master.

I'm also generally not sending from individual tracks either. All my individual channels go to submixes in the mixer. So: lead gtrs, rhy. gtrs, bass/keys, drums, sub vocal, lead vocals, bgvs. I learned this method from Tod. There's all kinds of built-in redundancies.

I have been send from the submixes to the verb. I'll try to diagram in text.

Reaper Master:

Master: Master FX: SubMaster: Bass/Keys: Lead Gtrs: Rhy Gtrs: Drums:

SubVox: Lead Vox: BGV:

Verb Bass/Keys/Drums: Verb Gtrs: Verb Vox


I hope this makes sense.
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 03:23 PM   #11
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
That much apparent clipping makes me uncomfortable, though I've never HEARD anything amiss.
There is no clipping but just red lights . Hence it does not need to make you feel uncomfortable, but it might look ugly.

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 03:26 PM   #12
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Hi kirk, what track(s) are you sending to the ReaVerb bus? Are you sending multiple tracks?

You should be able to send a signal that is high, but not clipping over 0dB, to the verb bus and get plenty of reverb without clipping the verb bus output.

Quote:
I use Reaverb as a send for all my verbs. I'm having trouble getting the right sound without clipping the send by a significant amount.

Turn up send, sounds fine, fader clips. Turn down send, clipping disappears, so does reverb. What am I missing?
I'm not understanding what you mean when you say "I use Reaverb as a send for all my verbs"? Why would you do that?
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 03:30 PM   #13
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
There is no clipping but just red lights . Hence it does not need to make you feel uncomfortable, but it might look ugly.

-Michael
At the end of my mixing when I ready to render a mix, I often have buses going into the red, however they seldom, if ever go over +4dB or +5dB, usualy 3dB or less.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 03:41 PM   #14
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi kirk, what track(s) are you sending to the ReaVerb bus? Are you sending multiple tracks?

You should be able to send a signal that is high, but not clipping over 0dB, to the verb bus and get plenty of reverb without clipping the verb bus output.



I'm not understanding what you mean when you say "I use Reaverb as a send for all my verbs"? Why would you do that?
I'll answer the last question first. I just mean I use ReaVerb as the actual effect on the verb buss(es).

The problem verb buss is the vocal verb. I'm sending from the lead vocal and bgv busses.
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 03:51 PM   #15
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
I'll answer the last question first. I just mean I use ReaVerb as the actual effect on the verb buss(es).

The problem verb buss is the vocal verb. I'm sending from the lead vocal and bgv busses.
Aah okay, so you're sending the vocal to the verb. Are you sending a good strong signal to the verb bus?

You've already said that the ReaVerb sliders are wet=0.0 and dry=-inf so that's not the issue.

What IRs are you using?

Last edited by Tod; 11-14-2019 at 04:07 PM.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 04:07 PM   #16
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Aah okay, so you're sending the vocal to the verb. Are you sending a good strong signal to the verb bus?

You've already said that the ReaVerb sliders are wet=0.0 and dry=-inf so that's not the issue.

What RIs are you using?
Generally I'm sending -33db to the verb buss. I'm using the Hopkins EMT 140 IRs as found on the resources page.
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 05:00 PM   #17
EpicSounds
Human being with feelings
 
EpicSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,570
Default

impulse responses are usually normalized to 0dBFS, with reaverb you usually have to use the -18dB gain option on the file, or else it's WAY too loud. Might also need to move the wet slider down to -12dB or so as well so your sends can be in a normal range.
__________________
REAPER Video Tutorials, Tips & Tricks and more at The REAPER Blog
EpicSounds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 05:49 PM   #18
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Thanks guys! I think I've sorted this. It was all of these things and none.

I was mixing a little later at night than I probably should. My ears were tired and I was auditioning IRs. They probably peaked at +10db when I was swapping them in and out.

Now the reverb buss is only peaking at +1db or so. I used "no SRC gain -18db."
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 07:10 PM   #19
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
Thanks guys! I think I've sorted this. It was all of these things and none.

I was mixing a little later at night than I probably should. My ears were tired and I was auditioning IRs. They probably peaked at +10db when I was swapping them in and out.

Now the reverb buss is only peaking at +1db or so. I used "no SRC gain -18db."
Okay good, I used to use ReaVerb all the time, but I got a couple of good pay for verbs a while back, So I haven't used ReaVerb for a while and forgot about the -18dB thingy.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 08:31 PM   #20
kirk1701
Human being with feelings
 
kirk1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Okay good, I used to use ReaVerb all the time, but I got a couple of good pay for verbs a while back, So I haven't used ReaVerb for a while and forgot about the -18dB thingy.
Yeah, I keep going back and forth on Valhalla plate. The ease of use is very tempting, but there's something to be said for taking the long road. Once I figured out I could do the Abbey Road Steed thing in ReaVerb, I decided to see what else I could figure out.
__________________
"I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy."
kirk1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.