Old 11-28-2020, 07:37 AM   #1
krabbencutter
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 29
Default EAR production suite

Thanks to matnoir for pointing me to the EAR production suite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matnoir View Post
[...]
The BBC along with the EBU have also released the equivalent, developed specifically with and for Reaper : https://ear-production-suite.ebu.io/

Have a nice day,
p@T
Since I didn't want to derail the Dolby Atmos topic too much, I thought it best to start a new thread.

What I find really hard to wrap my head around is how to incorporate third party vst plugins like a 7.1.2 reverb. I could create a 7.1.2 bed mix, which I can send to the EAR scene as a 7.1.2 direct input. But what if I want to have a reverb for objects?
Same with a limiter. How do I make sure my final mix is in spec? Does the renderer take plugins after the monitoring VSTs into account?
krabbencutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 07:20 AM   #2
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbencutter View Post
What I find really hard to wrap my head around is how to incorporate third party vst plugins like a 7.1.2 reverb.
Maybe my post here is of interest: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...72&postcount=5
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2020, 04:14 AM   #3
krabbencutter
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
Interesting idea, but probably works better for music & recordings. I'm currently playing around with sound design/game audio, where the audio sources don't have any natural ambience.
But after reading through dolby's documentation, I think the easiest solution are re-renders.
- Dolby recommends using a 5.1 re-render for final loudness measurements
- objects would be initially mixed without reverb. Once the mix is done, all objects could be grouped together and rendered to a 7.1.2 stem. This could then be mixed back into the reverb on the original bed track and might give a good approximation of space, while keeping the flexibility of objects intact.

I'll report back once I've tried that out
krabbencutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2020, 07:31 AM   #4
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbencutter View Post
Interesting idea, but probably works better for music & recordings. I'm currently playing around with sound design/game audio, where the audio sources don't have any natural ambience.
I work only with game audio too, like 99%.

Yes what you propose could work too. My recommendation work for both games and music if you balance the localization/diffusion aesthetics right according to your needs.

If you produce any ambience to get into the game as a per-rendered loop, maybe you wanna avoid the center and LFE channels and produce a clean quad. It's more compatible with the end users' setups.

I would love to hear what you've done.

Cheers!
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2021, 08:08 AM   #5
svijayrathinam
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 981
Default

I have been playing around with this for a while now . The direct speakers and object plugins doesn’t get added automatically into the scene plugin. Everytime I add an object or a direct speaker plugin Iam manually adding them to the scene . Also when creating a project with ADM file or exploding an ADM file it doesn’t create the scene and monitor tracks automatically.

Also a stereo Object plugin will be very useful.

Also ability to add object plugins and direct speakers plugins as take FX will be very very useful

Hope to see this soon 😀.

Great work so far !
svijayrathinam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2021, 02:14 AM   #6
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
The direct speakers and object plugins doesn’t get added automatically into the scene plugin. Everytime I add an object or a direct speaker plugin Iam manually adding them to the scene.
This is a known workflow, they also mention that little nuisance in their videos too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
Also when creating a project with ADM file or exploding an ADM file it doesn’t create the scene and monitor tracks automatically.
Also a stereo Object plugin will be very useful.
Also ability to add object plugins and direct speakers plugins as take FX will be very very useful.
Those are good ideas, you should post that on their website, the project is not under Reaper or Cockos developers.

Their website is here: https://ear-production-suite.ebu.io/

They have a contact mail link for feature and bug reports on the bottom.

They also have a place on GitHub: https://github.com/ebu/ear-production-suite
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2021, 03:21 PM   #7
Nick Morris
Human being with feelings
 
Nick Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 655
Default

Do track sends follow object panning with EAR PS?

How would you use an immersive 7.1.4 reverb and send to it from an object track?
__________________
www.ElaireStudios.com
Robo-Mic RMS robotic remote controlled mic stands aimed at mic'ing amps
Nick Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2021, 11:23 PM   #8
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Morris View Post
Do track sends follow object panning with EAR PS?
I have to check on that. Did you find how this works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Morris View Post
How would you use an immersive 7.1.4 reverb and send to it from an object track?
It depends on the reverb. Do you have a specific one in mind?
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2021, 05:52 AM   #9
Nick Morris
Human being with feelings
 
Nick Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 655
Default

Cinematic rooms for example.
__________________
www.ElaireStudios.com
Robo-Mic RMS robotic remote controlled mic stands aimed at mic'ing amps
Nick Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2021, 11:48 AM   #10
Nick Morris
Human being with feelings
 
Nick Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 655
Default

So it doesn’t seem like sends could follow an objects panning in EAR. With EAR PS you select a single channel for the send from object to scene. The plugins must talk to define the pan positioning since the audio is only on one channel and not across all speaker channels. Therefore sends can’t follow an objects panning.

With an object, it has to be mono. So what is the typical use for objects with regard to ambience? No ambience on the object? A mono ambience baked in to the object? Send the object to ambience regardless of the panning doesn’t follow? Maybe pan that return as an object also?
__________________
www.ElaireStudios.com
Robo-Mic RMS robotic remote controlled mic stands aimed at mic'ing amps
Nick Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2021, 12:29 PM   #11
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

From their page I saw that Cinematic Rooms can react to the source's energy, so multichannel panners could go well into that plugin.

In an ambisonics based workflow there are even more solution but they are CPU intensive. Like the IEM RoomEncoder and FdnReverb.

It seems that for the return you can use the ADM Export Source plugin and set type definition to direct speakers or HOA depending on the reverb you use, and that will insert it into the ADM workflow ready to be exported together with the rest of the project's audio.

I'm trying to find out how the common post-fader reverb send workflow would work in ADM.

Any ideas?
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2021, 12:37 PM   #12
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Yes, for simple implementation of acoustics you need that:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Foley -----> Panner/Upmixer (surround or ambisonics) -----> ADM Export Source
|
|
+--> Reverb
Reverb ----> ADM Export Source
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

But for object tracking in the reverb I don't know if there is a solution right now.

But, isn't that the same as with Dolby Atmos?
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia

Last edited by Joystick; 01-24-2021 at 12:42 PM.
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2021, 03:15 AM   #13
krabbencutter
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 29
Default

It's been a while, but I finally found the time and motivation to play around with the EAR suite a bit more. My current workaround for reverb is to render all my object channels through a 7.1.2 bus and then feed the audio file to my reverb in the bed track.

Dolby Atmos in ProTools has a "follow main pan" option for object sends, but like you already mentioned, something like this is currently not possible with the EAR production suite.

This could theoretically be implemented in Reaper, by linking the parameters from EAR Object to the new ReaSurroundPan. Unfortunately there's two issues with that:
- Reaper still doesn't allow parameter linking across tracks
- ReaSurroundPan only exposes the individual X/Y/Z parameters, which makes it impossible to map/automate rotation
krabbencutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2021, 06:11 PM   #14
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbencutter View Post
My current workaround for reverb is to render all my object channels through a 7.1.2 bus and then feed the audio file to my reverb in the bed track.
I use a similar approach. I send to an auxiliary which has an upmixer to ambisonics followed by an ambisonics reverb unit, which in turn is routed back to the mix.
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2021, 07:23 AM   #15
Nick Morris
Human being with feelings
 
Nick Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbencutter View Post

This could theoretically be implemented in Reaper, by linking the parameters from EAR Object to the new ReaSurroundPan. Unfortunately there's two issues with that:
- Reaper still doesn't allow parameter linking across tracks
- ReaSurroundPan only exposes the individual X/Y/Z parameters, which makes it impossible to map/automate rotation
obviously more development is needed in this area.
__________________
www.ElaireStudios.com
Robo-Mic RMS robotic remote controlled mic stands aimed at mic'ing amps
Nick Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2022, 12:29 AM   #16
jm duchenne
Human being with feelings
 
jm duchenne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France
Posts: 916
Default

version 0.70 with some fixes and HOA input:
https://github.com/ebu/ear-productio...ing/README.pdf
jm duchenne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2022, 12:57 AM   #17
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
version 0.70 with some fixes and HOA input:
https://github.com/ebu/ear-productio...ing/README.pdf
HOA input! That's awesome! :-D
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2022, 02:11 AM   #18
Berg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Rennes, FR
Posts: 199
Default

Dolby ADM import works well thanks to ITU-R BS 2076-2 support (I guess) but ADM export not compatible with Dolby Atmos Renderer.
Berg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2022, 06:40 AM   #19
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berg View Post
Dolby ADM import works well thanks to ITU-R BS 2076-2 support (I guess) but ADM export not compatible with Dolby Atmos Renderer.
The Dolby Atmos Renderer is a licensed product of Dolby Labs. I don't think that we will see any compatibility soon, although, it would be great. :-)
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2022, 08:29 AM   #20
Berg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Rennes, FR
Posts: 199
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
The Dolby Atmos Renderer is a licensed product of Dolby Labs. I don't think that we will see any compatibility soon, although, it would be great. :-)
I know but since the last ear production suite update, Dolby adm import into Reaper is possible that was not the case before !
Berg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2022, 10:57 AM   #21
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berg View Post
I know but since the last ear production suite update, Dolby adm import into Reaper is possible that was not the case before !
I too get super-excited when I read anything that includes REAPER and Dolby Atmos in the same sentence! :-P

When it happens it will be deliverance! \m/
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2022, 07:46 AM   #22
matt_f
Human being with feelings
 
matt_f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Hi all - just to answer a few questions on the EAR Production Suite;

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbencutter View Post
What I find really hard to wrap my head around is how to incorporate third party vst plugins like a 7.1.2 reverb. I could create a 7.1.2 bed mix, which I can send to the EAR scene as a 7.1.2 direct input. But what if I want to have a reverb for objects?
Same with a limiter. How do I make sure my final mix is in spec? Does the renderer take plugins after the monitoring VSTs into account?
The ADM and rendering standards don't support object-based reverbs at the moment. There has been some research in this area however (see "AES E-LIBRARY: Object-Based Reverberation for Spatial Audio"), but it could be some time before we see such a solution implemented in NGA standards. At the moment, the best solution would probably be as you suggest - to bake in your object reverb in to a channel-based or HOA asset (HOA is supported from EPS version v0.7.0).
Regarding the question on limiting, the REAPER extension is fed audio for individual assets directly from the Scene plug-in during export, so any processing post-Scene is not reflected in the exported ADM. This is because it needs to ensure the assets are kept separated when exporting, and the Scene is generally the final point in the signal chain before the assets are mixed by down-stream monitoring plug-ins. The topic of level and particularly loudness for NGA content is an active area within the industry and it poses many challenges. As an interim solution, you could use a side-chain feed from your monitoring output to a limiter placed pre-Scene. However, it is not ideal as an all-round NGA solution since this essentially bakes-in your attenuation which would be suitable only for that particular set-up.
matt_f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2022, 07:46 AM   #23
matt_f
Human being with feelings
 
matt_f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
I have been playing around with this for a while now . The direct speakers and object plugins doesn’t get added automatically into the scene plugin. Everytime I add an object or a direct speaker plugin Iam manually adding them to the scene . Also when creating a project with ADM file or exploding an ADM file it doesn’t create the scene and monitor tracks automatically.

Also a stereo Object plugin will be very useful.

Also ability to add object plugins and direct speakers plugins as take FX will be very very useful
The Scene has an "Auto Mode" which is enabled when a Scene is first placed on a track (such as when you are creating a project from scratch) in order to help speed up the workflow for creating the initial default programme (programmes are represented as individual tabs in the Scene plugin). During import of existing media however, this mode is disabled since items should only be added to programmes according to the ADM being imported. Also, when importing/exploding ADM media in to an existing session, the extension doesn't know which (if any) of your currently configured programmes each new item should be added to, so that needs to be a manual process.
The extension should create a Scene and Monitoring plugin when you import, unless a Scene plugin is already present in the session. If this isn't the behaviour that your seeing, then it may be a bug. Also try with v0.7.0+ since there have been substantial changes since v0.6.0.
A stereo object isn't currently supported in the ADM standard. I don't think it's likely to be supported since, in ADM, we would probably use nested objects for this use case - a parent object would contain the two individual child objects. It's not something the EAR Production Suite can do currently, but technically possible.
The Take FX idea is also certainly possible, and I think it would be a great way to reuse channels in exports for unrelated and time-distinct objects. The main issue would be that the already fiddley channel routing would become more of a problem. You'd have to ensure the VST routing parameter on every Take on a track matches the track routing to the Scene, and that these are kept up-to-date as takes are moved around. It could probably be automated by the extension actually, but that's a huge amount of work.
matt_f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2022, 07:47 AM   #24
matt_f
Human being with feelings
 
matt_f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Morris View Post
Do track sends follow object panning with EAR PS?

How would you use an immersive 7.1.4 reverb and send to it from an object track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Morris View Post
So it doesn’t seem like sends could follow an objects panning in EAR. With EAR PS you select a single channel for the send from object to scene. The plugins must talk to define the pan positioning since the audio is only on one channel and not across all speaker channels. Therefore sends can’t follow an objects panning.

With an object, it has to be mono. So what is the typical use for objects with regard to ambience? No ambience on the object? A mono ambience baked in to the object? Send the object to ambience regardless of the panning doesn’t follow? Maybe pan that return as an object also?
You are right in your second post - the REAPER pan controls become somewhat redundant in this paradigm. 3D position metadata according to the input plugins parameters is sent from the input plugin to the Scene plugin, which is then collated with metadata received from other input plugins and passed on to monitoring plugins for rendering according to the ADM rendering specification.
Regarding reverbs, I guess this depends on what the use case is - and I'll preface this by saying there aren't solutions for many of the use cases yet (see my reply to krabbencutter). If you were going to include a pre-baked reverb in your ADM, then the object that feeds that reverb should not have any interactivity (because the reverb wouldn't be coherent if, for example, the object was moved or attenuated.) This limits the usefulness of objects, other than at least only occupying one channel of audio. If the position and gain of the object can not be modified through interactivity settings, then it might as well be baked-in as part of the channel-based/HOA reverb asset unless you want to allow the reverb to be turned off separately.
matt_f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2022, 07:48 AM   #25
matt_f
Human being with feelings
 
matt_f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berg View Post
Dolby ADM import works well thanks to ITU-R BS 2076-2 support (I guess) but ADM export not compatible with Dolby Atmos Renderer.
This is down to ADM Profiles. The EAR Production Suite writes ADM according to the EBU Production Profile (https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3392.pdf). This is quite a verbose profile designed to maintain producer intent at the production stage. Some of the other profiles tend to be tailored towards particular encoders such that there is an easy mapping to them. The EAR Production Suite is quite flexible in the import of ADM and will attempt to support ADM in any profile you throw at it, but will conform to the EBU Production Profile for export. Some tools are less tolerant with import and will expect ADM only in the specific profile they are designed for. Interoperability between tools and ADM profiles is a focus of the EBU (https://tech.ebu.ch/audio) so hopefully this situation should improve.
matt_f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 11:09 AM   #26
Desa
Human being with feelings
 
Desa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 31
Default

Hi. Thanks everyone for the helpful information in this thread.

I have started using the EAR suite and I must say that I am very happy with it.
In particular, I really like the much higher quality binaural monitoring processing than other plugins I've tried.

One thing that is still not clear to me, given that I am going to study the possibility of distributing in atmos, is whether the type of ADM exported with this system will be accepted by distributors, or if the incompatibility with the Atmos Renderer you are speaking, could it be a stumbling block also as regards the submission of this file / format to distributors who ask for ADM BWF files.

Thanks in advance to those who want to help me with any useful explanation, and I apologize if I am not yet very knowledgeable on the subject.
Desa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 11:26 AM   #27
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desa View Post
One thing that is still not clear to me, given that I am going to study the possibility of distributing in atmos, is whether the type of ADM exported with this system will be accepted by distributors, or if the incompatibility with the Atmos Renderer you are speaking, could it be a stumbling block also as regards the submission of this file / format to distributors who ask for ADM BWF files.
It depends on the tech pipeline of each platform. Dolby Atmos uses the openly-defined format for object-based audio files, but with a way to ensure vendor-lock, to protect its intellectual property and trademarks.

Do you have a specific platform in mind?

I usually just send an email and ask the platform directly so I get to the truth faster.

As far as I know, full Dolby Atmos files can be created only through specified vendor solutions that Dolby approved and has some kind of deal with them.
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 11:48 AM   #28
Desa
Human being with feelings
 
Desa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
It depends on the tech pipeline of each platform. Dolby Atmos uses the openly-defined format for object-based audio files, but with a way to ensure vendor-lock, to protect its intellectual property and trademarks.

Do you have a specific platform in mind?

I usually just send an email and ask the platform directly so I get to the truth faster.

As far as I know, full Dolby Atmos files can be created only through specified vendor solutions that Dolby approved and has some kind of deal with them.
Hi Panos,

I am in the evaluation phase on the distributor, and I am also giving a lot of importance to the possibility of distributing atmos mixes as well.
I am not very experienced with distributors because I work mainly in production music with majors, and I'm planning to go independent for some releases.

At the moment I am evaluating Landr and Cd Baby (with Landr there are no additional payments for the Atmos Mix), discarded distro ... because too expensive, but if you have other suggestions ...

Yes, obviously I plan to contact support to ask for confirmation before signing up for a subscription, but the more I know, the easier it will be to be able to communicate with them and explain the situation.

Sarah
Desa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 01:54 PM   #29
Dodecahedron
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desa View Post
Hi. Thanks everyone for the helpful information in this thread.

I have started using the EAR suite and I must say that I am very happy with it.
In particular, I really like the much higher quality binaural monitoring processing than other plugins I've tried.

One thing that is still not clear to me, given that I am going to study the possibility of distributing in atmos, is whether the type of ADM exported with this system will be accepted by distributors, or if the incompatibility with the Atmos Renderer you are speaking, could it be a stumbling block also as regards the submission of this file / format to distributors who ask for ADM BWF files.

Thanks in advance to those who want to help me with any useful explanation, and I apologize if I am not yet very knowledgeable on the subject.
Hello!
So if I understood you correctly, you would like to mix with EAR Production Suite, and would like to know whether the BW64 file it creates can be used directly for Atmos distribution. The short answer is that they cant, but this will probably change. So at the moment the problem is, that the EBU broadcast production profile (which is the thing that the EAR Production suite outputs to) is incompatible with the Dolby profile, which, for obvious reasons, you have to conform to if you want to distribute something in Dolby Atmos. In the future there will likely be tools that convert between ADM profiles, however this would almost always mean having to deal with some sort of automatic data reduction.
All that said, you might in some cases still be able to use tools like EAR Production Suite in productions related to Dolby Atmos. Even if you can't use the ADM directly, it might still be very useful for some things. What kind of production are you working on?
Dodecahedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 01:57 PM   #30
Dodecahedron
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 33
Default

Oh, and I completely agree with you, the binaural monitoring in EPS is really good.
Dodecahedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:01 PM   #31
Desa
Human being with feelings
 
Desa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodecahedron View Post
Hello!
So if I understood you correctly, you would like to mix with EAR Production Suite, and would like to know whether the BW64 file it creates can be used directly for Atmos distribution. The short answer is that they cant, but this will probably change. So at the moment the problem is, that the EBU broadcast production profile (which is the thing that the EAR Production suite outputs to) is incompatible with the Dolby profile, which, for obvious reasons, you have to conform to if you want to distribute something in Dolby Atmos. In the future there will likely be tools that convert between ADM profiles, however this would almost always mean having to deal with some sort of automatic data reduction.
All that said, you might in some cases still be able to use tools like EAR Production Suite in productions related to Dolby Atmos. Even if you can't use the ADM directly, it might still be very useful for some things. What kind of production are you working on?
Hi Dodecahedron,
yes, you understood perfectly what I was referring to, thanks for the clarification!
I'd like to know more about 'you might in some cases still be able to use tools like EAR Production Suite in productions related to Dolby Atmos.'

I am mainly a trailer composer / sound designer (I added my website in the signature), but I also deal with more generic underscoring, and the idea is to create electronic albums with 'a lot of movement' and sensory sound design.
__________________
Sarah De Carlo

http://sarahdecarlo.it
Desa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:03 PM   #32
Desa
Human being with feelings
 
Desa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodecahedron View Post
Oh, and I completely agree with you, the binaural monitoring in EPS is really good.
Yes, is fantastic.
I'm going to use that 'stereo mix' as a starting point for the stereo version.
Normally, when I work with immersive setups and stereo mixing, I opt for a 'classic' downmix because I am never satisfied with binaural downmixing done with other plugins. But this one is special: an excellent spatialization and a sound not at all degraded.
__________________
Sarah De Carlo

http://sarahdecarlo.it
Desa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:10 PM   #33
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desa View Post
but if you have other suggestions ...
I also saw that DistroKid is very expensive, around 29USD per track or something.

I use Rebeat Digital (https://rebeat.com/) to distribute my very-very limited work, but they support the distribution of Dolby Atmos for free. They're not the most user-friendly platform and they might lack some features that you find on the more modern distribution platforms, but they do offer a wide range of channels they can distribute your work. I'm also very happy with the customer support.

You could break from the desktop environment, regarding the conversion to atmos, by using Amazon's AWS converters.

Check this out here,

- Passthrough conversion: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/mediacon...ssthrough.html
- Encoding: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/mediacon...-encoding.html

You can see that the pricing is nothing: https://aws.amazon.com/mediaconvert/pricing/

Btw, does anyone has any experience with the MediaConvert services of Amazon AWS regarding Dolby Atmos?

I use AWS for a lot of things at SoundFellas and I was thinking of sending them an email with specific questions about the output format but if anyone knows better please let me know. They state that on audio-only formats they support the output of MPEG-4 (.mp4) container for AAC, Dolby Digital (AC3), Dolby Digital Plus (EAC3), and Quicktime (.mov) container for WAV.

Are those formats something that could be used for upload to music distributors?
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:13 PM   #34
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodecahedron View Post
Oh, and I completely agree with you, the binaural monitoring in EPS is really good.
Second it! :-)
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:15 PM   #35
Desa
Human being with feelings
 
Desa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 31
Default

Panos great tips, thanks.
I'll do some research right away!
__________________
Sarah De Carlo

http://sarahdecarlo.it
Desa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:46 PM   #36
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desa View Post
Panos great tips, thanks.
I'll do some research right away!
I just went through the documentation on the AWS MediaConvert, they accept 9.1.6 files in BWav and output what I stated in my previous post.

I guess it's the domestic type of atmos workflows they are going for. The amazon media service is for that kind of streaming mostly.

Anyway, I already have an active account in AWS, if anybody wants to send me a test file in 9.1.6, I can pass it through the converter and output any files they support and upload them somewhere for everybody here to get them and try them out. Just make them short so the conversion is easy and fast.

Maybe output a 9.1.6 CBI from EAR and we could try how it sounds after the conversion.
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:47 PM   #37
Dodecahedron
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desa View Post
Hi Dodecahedron,
yes, you understood perfectly what I was referring to, thanks for the clarification!
I'd like to know more about 'you might in some cases still be able to use tools like EAR Production Suite in productions related to Dolby Atmos.'

I am mainly a trailer composer / sound designer (I added my website in the signature), but I also deal with more generic underscoring, and the idea is to create electronic albums with 'a lot of movement' and sensory sound design.
Well, there are a couple of things that you can do. One thing is, that you can just simply print the output of whatever monitoring plugin you use in EPS. "0+2+0" is Stereo, "4+5+0" is 5.1.4 in Dolby terminology etc. All those things can be used either as beds, or a combination of beds and objects in the Atmos domain. So at this point we are "only" talking about channel based media, which, one might argue, is a bit of a limitation, and could also be created with other tools, such as the surround panner that comes with Reaper. The thing is, though, that you can still do a lot of things using a strictly channel based paradigm, actually there are a lot of situations where this is a good idea, especially for music (that's a different discussion though). Also, EPS kan take a hell of a lot of things as input: multichannel (such as the stuff that you can make with Reaper Surround Pan), Objects, and even HOA (another insane rabbit hole, although very useful, especially in the context of electronic sounds). And it can render all of these things to many different speaker configurations. So you could start with preparing assets in that domain, and use only a fiew things as objects in the Atmos domain, which you would add later in an Atmos production environment. That might be very rewarding, depending on your workflow.
Another thing could be to simply use the EPS binaural monitor for monitoring your mix. So basically you could feed the output of the Dolby renderer (given you have one available) into EPS and "misuse" it as a binaural monitor.
Dodecahedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:56 PM   #38
Desa
Human being with feelings
 
Desa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodecahedron View Post
Well, there are a couple of things that you can do. One thing is, that you can just simply print the output of whatever monitoring plugin you use in EPS. "0+2+0" is Stereo, "4+5+0" is 5.1.4 in Dolby terminology etc. All those things can be used either as beds, or a combination of beds and objects in the Atmos domain. So at this point we are "only" talking about channel based media, which, one might argue, is a bit of a limitation, and could also be created with other tools, such as the surround panner that comes with Reaper. The thing is, though, that you can still do a lot of things using a strictly channel based paradigm, actually there are a lot of situations where this is a good idea, especially for music (that's a different discussion though). Also, EPS kan take a hell of a lot of things as input: multichannel (such as the stuff that you can make with Reaper Surround Pan), Objects, and even HOA (another insane rabbit hole, although very useful, especially in the context of electronic sounds). And it can render all of these things to many different speaker configurations. So you could start with preparing assets in that domain, and use only a fiew things as objects in the Atmos domain, which you would add later in an Atmos production environment. That might be very rewarding, depending on your workflow.
Another thing could be to simply use the EPS binaural monitor for monitoring your mix. So basically you could feed the output of the Dolby renderer (given you have one available) into EPS and "misuse" it as a binaural monitor.
This is exactly what I want to do... in fact, I often go immersive also in my stereo production (and here, EPS is a fantastic change for me, for the reason you mention).
My only limitation now is the ADM file to send to distributors.
__________________
Sarah De Carlo

http://sarahdecarlo.it
Desa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:56 PM   #39
Dodecahedron
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
I just went through the documentation on the AWS MediaConvert, they accept 9.1.6 files in BWav and output what I stated in my previous post.

I guess it's the domestic type of atmos workflows they are going for. The amazon media service is for that kind of streaming mostly.

Anyway, I already have an active account in AWS, if anybody wants to send me a test file in 9.1.6, I can pass it through the converter and output any files they support and upload them somewhere for everybody here to get them and try them out. Just make them short so the conversion is easy and fast.

Maybe output a 9.1.6 CBI from EAR and we could try how it sounds after the conversion.
Seems you can't encode to BW64 with ADM metadata? Because as far as I know, that's the only format that you can use for distribution on a streaming service.
But it might still be interesting for QC, as converting to something, that you can actually try on, say, a mobile device or a home theater is currently not that easy, unless you have the Dolby Atmos Production Suite, which doesn't run on Windows.
Dodecahedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2022, 02:59 PM   #40
Joystick
Human being with feelings
 
Joystick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens / Greece
Posts: 627
Default

By the way, I found this part in Amazon's documentation but I cannot understand if they mean the third option as an input or output:

-----------

Note the following restrictions in the AWS Elemental MediaConvert implementation of Dolby Atmos encoding:

1. Channel-based immersive: AWS Elemental MediaConvert supports channel-based immersive (CBI) content.

2. Dolby Atmos Master File (DAMF): AWS Elemental MediaConvert supports Dolby Atmos master file (DAMF). This is a collection of 3 files with the extensions, .atmos, .atmos.metadata, and .atmos.audio

3. Audio Descriptive Model Broadcast WAV Format (ADM BWF): AWS Elemental MediaConvert supports ADM BWF. It is a single broadcast WAV file contains header data with the .atmos and .atmos.metadata information.

4. Output codec: You can create Dolby Atmos audio outputs encoded with only the Dolby Digital Plus (EAC3) codec.

5. Output containers: For file outputs, you can create Dolby Atmos audio in only in one of the video containers that supports Dolby Digital Plus: MPEG-4, MPEG-2 Transport Stream, or QuickTime.

6. Output packages: For adaptive bitrate (ABR) outputs, you can create Dolby Atmos audio in any of the AWS Elemental MediaConvert output group types: CMAF, Apple HLS, DASH ISO, or Microsoft Smooth Streaming.
-----------

If they mean as an input then we could export from EAR and convert to Atmos using AWS, no?
__________________
Pan Athen
SoundFellas Creative Audio Studios www.soundfellas.com
Creator of Echotopia www.soundfellas.com/software/echotopia
Joystick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.