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Old 12-13-2010, 09:59 PM   #201
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I fear we are working so hard to make everyone's wildest panning dreams come true (in combination with all the other possibilities) that this thing is going to become a mess and the simplest panning is going to require the setting of lots of options and potential forum posts. There is a diminishing return when the possibilites exceed the ability to keep it simple. I know that's not the intention but just sayin for perspective's sake.

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Old 12-13-2010, 10:13 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by labyrinth View Post
Mercado,

I believe your pic is set at 0 pan law? I am referring to if there is a pan law set:

[img]PIC REMOVED
Ah yeah, you're right! hehe that's weird indeed. I'd call it a bug because it seems to be compensating twice when channels are inverted.
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:29 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I fear we are working so hard to make everyone's wildest panning dreams come true (in combination with all the other possibilities) that this thing is going to become a mess and the simplest panning is going to require the setting of lots of options and potential forum posts. There is a diminishing return when the possibilites exceed the ability to keep it simple. I know that's not the intention but just sayin for perspective's sake.

Karbo
Sadly, we have to deal with it as users because there's no dedicated tracks in REAPER (mono or stereo). If we get dual pans (two sliders) we'll also have to deal with the same things we're dealing now with this approach. We wanted dual pans and now we have them we're seeing its side effects.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:27 PM   #204
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IDEA

What if we had a new default dialog to insert new tracks? This dialog would contain several fields.

*Number of tracks
*Name for tracks
*Position (at the end of track list or right below last touched track)
*Purpose

The main improvement here is Purpose. This would give us several options like:

Mono
Stereo
Folder
Group
Aux Send

If we choose Mono REAPER would ask for a pan law.

With this REAPER will set all pan/pan law options automatically for us for each track which will avoid confusion, I think.

I think we'd also need an option in Preferences=>Track/Send Defaults for this dialog because there are some of us who won't probably need it, something like "Use dialog to insert new tracks", dunno.

Whaddathunk?
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:48 PM   #205
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Whaddathunk?
Track templates make this completely unnecessary and redundant.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:52 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by bullshark View Post
Track templates make this completely unnecessary and redundant.
Man, I'm trying to make things easier for new users and people who don't understand how all pan law/dual pan stuff works. Do you think a new user will create track templates before even trying to work in a song? You know how it works and you have your templates but this is just as basic as it can get, it's something I've seen in other DAWs, hence the idea.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:56 PM   #207
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I just don't see how adding a jungle of duplicate options is going to help anybody, sorry.

Beside, people working with audio will have to learn that stuff one way or another, it's just how it is.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:12 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I fear we are working so hard to make everyone's wildest panning dreams come true (in combination with all the other possibilities) that this thing is going to become a mess and the simplest panning is going to require the setting of lots of options and potential forum posts. There is a diminishing return when the possibilites exceed the ability to keep it simple. I know that's not the intention but just sayin for perspective's sake.
As far I know, there really is only two mode here, stereo or mono. Then there's the old one for compatibility sake(which really doesn't need to be there, should just appear on project saved prior to 4.xx).

The only thing that isn't there and that should simplify things is to link mode with panning control display. Put the track pan control in mono, should have one pan fader, stereo should have two. I don't know why this isn't in there yet, having to go into layout menu to have a display and control that match is...extremely weird.

[edit]Heck, I can't even get a single pan control in the latest alpha...it's getting weirder...[/edit]

Last edited by bullshark; 12-14-2010 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:02 AM   #209
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there are 2 basic modes: balance, and stereo pan.

balance is used for mono signals or to balance a stereo signal.

stereo pan is used to move a stereo track in the stereo field.

there are 2 ways to manipulate a stereo pan: pan and width, or dual mono (these are two representations of the same range of outcomes).

imo the dual mono is the most legible display, no need to say "full left + 100% width means the right channel will be centered" etc.

but in terms of setting or automating the pan, the width + pan is the quickest to manipulate: no need to tweak the left and right channels inward by thesame amnounts etc...

so thats the logic behind my proposal: display dual mono positions on a single control. drag between them LR to move the pan. drag between them up down to change the width. grab each widget individually to move L or R separately.

option click and the panner switches to a balance control - this should look different. again dragging in the middle of the control would change the width.

It should be visually clear if a pan control is a balance control or a stereo pan and thereshould only be these two (unless you want to throw the surround panner into the mix )
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:08 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
(unless you want to throw the surround panner into the mix )
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo





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Old 12-14-2010, 01:44 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
there are 2 basic modes: balance, and stereo pan.

balance is used for mono signals or to balance a stereo signal.

stereo pan is used to move a stereo track in the stereo field.

there are 2 ways to manipulate a stereo pan: pan and width, or dual mono (these are two representations of the same range of outcomes).

imo the dual mono is the most legible display, no need to say "full left + 100% width means the right channel will be centered" etc.

but in terms of setting or automating the pan, the width + pan is the quickest to manipulate: no need to tweak the left and right channels inward by thesame amnounts etc...

so thats the logic behind my proposal: display dual mono positions on a single control. drag between them LR to move the pan. drag between them up down to change the width. grab each widget individually to move L or R separately.

option click and the panner switches to a balance control - this should look different. again dragging in the middle of the control would change the width.

It should be visually clear if a pan control is a balance control or a stereo pan and thereshould only be these two (unless you want to throw the surround panner into the mix )
This is exactly how it should be!

1. Two knobs - one for Left, one for Right.

2. A width control that can then expand or contract the above knobs together from their set positions.

3. And a position control that can shift the above stereo image left or right.

Two and three can be combined into one control like a touch pad. Up and down changes width. Left and right changes position.

Perfect!
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:30 AM   #212
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The new sin taper is lovely. Really easy to get positions now. Many thanks.

BUT in alpha 12b, it still clicks on moving the slider.

I'm personally not bothered by the whole width/2 sliders thing. It does the same thing to me. Sure 2 pan sliders is more visually feedback worthy, but the width control does allow for some very quick creative adjustments where 'oh, it's a bit wide' is actually only one operation to sort out or automate.

I don't sit there thinking, 'oh, better move the left in a bit, and then the right in a bit'. But who knows. That's just me, and this panning this is probablly really a matter of personal taste anyhow.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:52 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by griz lee View Post
BUT in alpha 12b, it still clicks on moving the slider.
Yep, still zipper noise in 12b!


FIXED (4.0beta1)

Last edited by Dstruct; 05-04-2011 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:54 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
You can't pan stuff more than 50% L or R.
Just tested in 12b -> not true. Mono sources can be panned 100% left and right with the Stereo panner without the need to set the width to 0%! SOLVED

Last edited by Dstruct; 12-14-2010 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:54 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by griz lee View Post
Sure 2 pan sliders is more visually feedback worthy, but the width control does allow for some very quick creative adjustments where 'oh, it's a bit wide' is actually only one operation to sort out or automate.
That wouldn't be a problem. Clicking between handles could move both in the same direction and a modifier could move left and right pan in opposite directions.

That said, I am sort of getting used to the current method what setting them up is concerned but still have difficulties "reading" the meaning of particular settings of pan and width at a glance. I still would prefer to have both alternatives.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:06 AM   #216
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Just tested in 12b -> not true. Mono sources can be panned 100% left and right with the Stereo panner without the need to set the width to 0%!
Not really

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/1042071...onoSources.gif
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:21 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
You're right. My fault - or better -> REAPER GUI bug:


With the Mixer set to "default+width" layout, the panner doesn't hide the width fader (so you also have the width fader for the balance pan modes) ...
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:24 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
You're right. My fault - or better -> REAPER GUI bug:


With the Mixer set to "default+width" layout, the panner doesn't hide the width fader (so you also have the width fader for the balance pan modes) ...
Why should REAPER hide it? It also works in Balance mode and it's pretty useful there by the way.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:26 AM   #219
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Why should REAPER hide it? It also works in Balance mode and it's pretty useful there by the way.
What's the difference than between "Stereo pan" and "Balance" if "Width" is working on both? I don't get it ...
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:54 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by jdutaillis View Post
This is exactly how it should be!

1. Two knobs - one for Left, one for Right.

2. A width control that can then expand or contract the above knobs together from their set positions.

3. And a position control that can shift the above stereo image left or right.

Two and three can be combined into one control like a touch pad. Up and down changes width. Left and right changes position.

Perfect!
+1 to semiquaver's and this. as simple as it gets, no?

we need simple functionality. accomodating newbs should not be a primary goal. they can/should learn "what" before "why"
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:01 AM   #221
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What's the difference than between "Stereo pan" and "Balance" if "Width" is working on both? I don't get it ...
With balance you don't get level changes and you can pan stereo/mono materials to the extremes of left and right (assuming you're using 0db pan law)

With Stereo Pan you can only pan stereo or mono sources 50% left or right and not 100% and you get a level boost while panning. If you wanna pan further than 50% then you need to reduce the width control to 0 but that will also boost the volume (when pan is centered)
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:08 AM   #222
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I'm too stupid for this sorry. This is getting worse and worse.


The pan readout goes from 0% to 100% with "width" at 100% on the stero panner. Why do you say it just goes to 50% then?
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:10 AM   #223
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Love the new Width control

Personally I am not very happy with the new Stereo Pan...there is no full pan to one side.

I have been using this code in mGUI for Stereo Pan which I personally prefer:
Code:
   // range cPan: -1.0 .. 0 .. +1.0
   if cPan > 0 then begin // Pan to right
     Outs[pn+1,i] := Outs[pn+1,i] + Outs[pn+0,i]*cPan; // first process Right !!
     Outs[pn+0,i] := Outs[pn+0,i] - Outs[pn+0,i]*cPan;
   end
   else if cPan < 0 then begin // Pan to left
     Outs[pn+0,i] := Outs[pn+0,i] - Outs[pn+1,i]*cPan; // first process Left !!
     Outs[pn+1,i] := Outs[pn+1,i] + Outs[pn+1,i]*cPan;
   end;
Here is the link the working DemoPan.DLL: DemoPan.rar
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:48 AM   #224
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I'm too stupid for this sorry. This is getting worse and worse.


The pan readout goes from 0% to 100% with "width" at 100% on the stero panner. Why do you say it just goes to 50% then?
It's not the pan readout you should worry about, it's the sound! use your ears

If you can't hear the difference then this gif should help you understand (basicly it's the same thing Mercado posted before but now with a stereo source)

[IMG]http://img403.**************/img403/5420/stereopan.gif[/IMG]

1. At first you see the stereo image centered and i use the mouse cursor to indicate that.

2. Now i pan the material 100% right but it only goes 50% right and i indicate this again with the mouse cursor (see? the sound is not 100% right in the sound field even if Reaper pan is set at 100% right)

3. And then i reduce the width of the material and you see it's actually panning from 50% to 100% right but i get a volume boost when i do this.

Hope you can understand it now.

Last edited by Renan L.B; 12-14-2010 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:10 AM   #225
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Yeah, but then the pan readout should show us the real pan values ...
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:27 AM   #226
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It does show for balanced mode but not for Stereo Pan. Cubase behaves exactly the same when you use the Stereo Pan so this is not a bug it's a standard and expected behaviour from using stereo pan mode.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:49 AM   #227
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Ok .
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:08 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
there are 2 basic modes: balance, and stereo pan.

balance is used for mono signals or to balance a stereo signal.

stereo pan is used to move a stereo track in the stereo field.

there are 2 ways to manipulate a stereo pan: pan and width, or dual mono (these are two representations of the same range of outcomes).

imo the dual mono is the most legible display, no need to say "full left + 100% width means the right channel will be centered" etc.

but in terms of setting or automating the pan, the width + pan is the quickest to manipulate: no need to tweak the left and right channels inward by thesame amnounts etc...

so thats the logic behind my proposal: display dual mono positions on a single control. drag between them LR to move the pan. drag between them up down to change the width. grab each widget individually to move L or R separately.

option click and the panner switches to a balance control - this should look different. again dragging in the middle of the control would change the width.

It should be visually clear if a pan control is a balance control or a stereo pan and thereshould only be these two (unless you want to throw the surround panner into the mix )
+1 for this too
The most important thing is to see clearly what you're doing and what is going on! (Left and right sliders)
I'm sure I could record without meters, compress without seeing Gain Reduction, or Eq without looking at the center frequency, but most of the time, I don't. Do You???
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:28 PM   #229
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Ok here is a mock up showing some of the ideas above. Personally, i think this would be the perfect implementation and give us all exactly what we want!

What do you guys think?

[IMG]http://img811.**************/img811/8873/92590666.png[/IMG]
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:34 PM   #230
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It seems to me that the simplest thing would be to have a coloured button by the pan controls to choose mono or stereo, and keep it as it is now. That would indicate how the controls work.

The right-click list could still be used to override the default (which would be balance for mono and stereo for stereo).

Or am I missing something?
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:46 PM   #231
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It seems to me that the simplest thing would be to have a coloured button by the pan controls to choose mono or stereo, and keep it as it is now. That would indicate how the controls work.
BRILLIANT! I WOULD LOVE to switch pan modes with something like this. I hate i have to "pixel hunt" the pan or width control with the mouse and then right click to pop up a window and then select and then close. Just clicking a colored buttom to switch modes (different colors for each) would be perfect a very handy time saver for sure! +1000000000
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:45 PM   #232
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Mercado,

I believe your pic is set at 0 pan law? I am referring to if there is a pan law set:

[img]http://img195.**************/img195/6581/widthpanlaw.png[/img]
I am only bumping this, so it is noticed as a bug and not lost in the noise. (and I should have removed the word compensated under 0dB pan law, as there is no compensation)
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Old 12-15-2010, 09:19 PM   #233
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Please Cockos, give us the ability to select a bunch of tracks and change their pan mode/pan law/compensation all at once, please
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:19 PM   #234
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Ok here is a mock up showing some of the ideas above. Personally, i think this would be the perfect implementation and give us all exactly what we want!

What do you guys think?

[IMG]http://img811.**************/img811/8873/92590666.png[/IMG]
One step closer to this with Alpha15!

Pretty stoaked right now!!
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:01 PM   #235
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Yep, still zipper noise in 12b!
Still zipper noises on the new panner modes in 4.0alpha17!


FIXED (4.0beta1)

Last edited by Dstruct; 05-04-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:55 PM   #236
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Please Cockos, give us the ability to select a bunch of tracks and change their pan mode/pan law/compensation all at once, please
Please!
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:10 AM   #237
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Please add action to "adjust width of selected track (MIDI CC)". You know...
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:30 AM   #238
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Zipper noises still there in 4.0alpha24! Only the old 3.x mode doesn't give zipper noise.

FIXED (4.0beta1)

Last edited by Dstruct; 05-04-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:21 AM   #239
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Doubleclick the width slider resets width to zero. Shouldn't it reset to +100%?
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:22 AM   #240
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Doubleclick the width slider resets width to zero. Shouldn't it reset to +100%?
Not sure. I think I like the reset to 0% ...
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