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Old 03-17-2018, 02:22 AM   #1001
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Is there some way you wish to use the program that notes WOULD be needed. But you are just not telling us for some reason.
I just offered to be a Beta tester to use this program with my XTouch Compact in "native" mode, which Geoff seemed to appreciate.

No other interest on my site.

As stated above, the documentation of the XTouch Compact, and the Configuration Editor that comes with it, does not provide any "hex", but just "human" Midi message notation (including Note-on and Note-off messages). And in my books, the documentation and configuration usability is part of any Beta testing.

-Michael

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Old 03-17-2018, 02:39 AM   #1002
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I just offered to be a Beta tester to use this program with my XTouch Compact in "native" mode, which Geoff seemed to appreciate.

No other interest on my site.

As stated above, the documentation of the XTouch Compact, and the Configuration Editor that comes with it, does not provide any "hex", but just "human" Midi message notation (including Note-on and Note-off messages). And in my books, the documentation and configuration usability is part of any Beta testing.

-Michael
Hey Michael, we're all in this together, I came in not understanding Hex, still only half understand tbh, but really once your control is mapped, there is no need to worry about Hex, Dec or whatever. Tweaks are done via action templates, where button names (widgets) are attached to other words (actions).
All the scope in the world for customisation.

That's the key, for future users, they download the rst for their controller, they can then download axt files and fxt files for their controller & needs.

If you have costomised your surface from default,you are on your own...no one else's will be the same. Or work with your files.

Then we are no longer all in it together.

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Old 03-17-2018, 03:31 AM   #1003
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Regarding the hex vs. whatever discussion:

Isn't it possible to write an easy to understand instruction on how to create an .rst for any midi controller? This (or a link to it) could be included in the download package, and i think that would make the template-list grow a lot faster.

Does that even make sense? I'm not understanding a lot of what's discussed here, but i'd happily provide the map for the Qcon-pro, if i knew how to... of course i'd also be happy to wait until someone else who understands this creates one.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:56 AM   #1004
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future users
In my understanding there are thee kinds of them: tech nerds with not problem using hex, experienced DAW users, willing to learn the necessary stuff to make the system do exactly hat they want it to (Reaper seems to be aimed mainly to those), and those just wanting the run the things out of the box (including "dummies", and self-proclaimed "professionals" not wanting to invest any time in tool improvement).

Obviously the second brand might want to tweak the configuration without using hex, while the 3rd will just demand readily prepared config files for exactly their needs.

-Michael
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:11 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
In my understanding there are thee kinds of them: tech nerds with not problem using hex, experienced DAW users, willing to learn the necessary stuff to make the system do exactly hat they want it to (Reaper seems to be aimed mainly to those), and those just wanting the run the things out of the box (including "dummies", and self-proclaimed "professionals" not wanting to invest any time in tool improvement).

Obviously the second brand might want to tweak the configuration without using hex, while the 3rd will just demand readily prepared config files for exactly their needs.

-Michael
Probably a good time to restate development priorities, the original post on this matter is probably now long lost

The goal is to get a functional implementation into users hands as early and as frequently as possible.

Typically the UI part of a project of this shape is 50% or more of the work.

The decision was made to build the "engine" portion first in order to get it to the "real world" as quickly as possible, for testing and feedback, very much the Reaper philosophy.

Because of this the fancy GUI is low on the priorities list right now.

A top notch, high performing engine is the current focus, so thanks again to all out there helping drive this forward.
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:23 AM   #1006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
In my understanding there are thee kinds of them: tech nerds with not problem using hex, experienced DAW users, willing to learn the necessary stuff to make the system do exactly hat they want it to (Reaper seems to be aimed mainly to those), and those just wanting the run the things out of the box (including "dummies", and self-proclaimed "professionals" not wanting to invest any time in tool improvement).


-Michael
Another narrow generalization..

I suppose I'm in your third category "self-proclaimed professionals"
25 years full time recording/mixing/mastering/producing & composing on DAW
(and analog tape)
Not hugely keen on wanting to invest much time in tool improvement.

DAW's are not rocket science, some of us need to work, most of the features on all DAW's do what they are supposed to do - record, edit and mix music.

Where do you fall in your "3 types of people" Michael?
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Old 03-17-2018, 04:40 AM   #1007
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I suppose I'm in your third category "self-proclaimed professionals" 25 years full time recording/mixing/masteringproducing & composing on DAW (and analog tape)
Not hugely keen on wanting to invest much time in tool improvement.
I said "including" on purpose !

I don't suppose you (like some I met on theses forums) will get up and shout "I am a professional and that is why I am entitled to state that these tools are crap because they out of the box don't exactly do what I want". But you wisely will chose the tools that best suite your needs and decide whether or not you are inclined to invest time in tweaking them (or instead chose others that might be more expensive and/or less versatile).

-Michael (being a professional software programmer and a hobby musician and just rarely a hobby mixer/producer, obviously of the first type )

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Old 03-17-2018, 05:24 AM   #1008
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In my experience, almost everyone fall into the third category.

No matter how far you get with GUI, documentation, text and video tutorials. Almost everyone will ask "is good preset for device X exists?" and when the answer is "not yet", he/she will not reply offering help.

That was not theoretical nor short experience. I ended with creating configurations remotely on users computers, when they was ready to "invest" 1-2 hours into that (they had to operate the controller so I could "MIDI learn" it, check LEDs on buttons and ring on encoders, etc). For devices which had the documentation or an editor, I could prepare the preset on my own. Users just had to report bugs.

Note that most of the people I could communicate with during such configuration was far from "dummies". When someone is semi- or really professional as a musician or a studio/live audio engineer, the probability he/she EVER had a course in computing / programming and so can write INI files is rather small.

Some DAWs automatically check for new VSTs on startup, that reduce support costs coming from the question "your DAW does not see my new VST" with reply "please press "Scan" button". For such users the word HEX means "hacker alarm!"
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Old 03-17-2018, 05:41 AM   #1009
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I said "including" on purpose !

I don't suppose you (like some I met on theses forums) will get up and shout "I am a professional and that is why I am entitled to state that these tools are crap because they out of the box don't exactly do what I want". But you wisely will chose the tools that best suite your needs and decide whether or not you are inclined to invest time in tweaking them (or instead chose others that might be more expensive and/or less versatile).

-Michael
I just need to work - It is simple.
From my experience - it is the amateurs with way too much time on their hands are the never ending tweakers, constantly refining every fine detail and aspect of a program, hardly ever making music or working professionally with a DAW platform, and constantly on a forum posting about anything programming related.

And back on topic - I would love to see OSC fully integrated into Reaper, only to make communication between devices seamless, and at the end of the day, help my various different (evolving) workflows

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Old 03-17-2018, 05:48 AM   #1010
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... amateurs with way too much time on their hands ... hardly ever making music or working professionally with a DAW platform,
Are you intending to insult, Justin, Schwa and Geoff ?


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the never ending tweakers, constantly refining every fine detail and aspect of a program,
And with that helping to provide improved tools for everybody else

-Michael

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Old 03-17-2018, 05:51 AM   #1011
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Wow, who'd have thought a bit of hex could be so controversial I think if you read the thread from the start it is clear this project is very much in the early stages. The various template files need to be as clear and succinct as possible, to allow the programmer (Geoff) to get the guts of the project into the air.

Regarding the creation of templates, particularly .rst, I think it much more likely that people would use the MIDI monitor Geoff has built into the engine to determine the codes being sent, rather than scouring the MIDI implementation pages that came with the device. The MIDI monitor displays hex values that are ready to feed into the template.

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When someone is semi- or really professional as a musician or a studio/live audio engineer, the probability he/she EVER had a course in computing / programming and so can write INI files is rather small.
These folks are going to be relying on others to generate templates. They're just as likely to get lost with named MIDI messages (that are repurposed and therefore meaningless) as they are with hex. The most straightforward route to use a pre-existing template will be to use the device in its default (unedited) mode or at the very worst the template will need an accompanying sysex file to set the device appropriately.
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Old 03-17-2018, 05:53 AM   #1012
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Lively Saturday morning discussion

Thanks everyone for making my point !

The few dedicated tweakers (me included) will tend to be the ones who generate templates.

They are by nature DIYers, tech savvy, and are/will be comfortable with hex notation.

So the prioritization is confirmed.

The best use of the limited resources (me) on this project is to get the engine built, and use as simple a file format as possible (hex works well), so that the folks who tend to generate templates will have as easy a time as is possible.

@ChristopherT -- while I would agree that there are some amateurs who endlessly tweak, there are also those (me included) who tweak, write, arrange, play, engineer, produce, etc., tweaking is but a part of the overall Reaper experience for us
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Old 03-17-2018, 05:56 AM   #1013
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Geoff - you are doing great work for us all with this,
and much appreciated
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:04 AM   #1014
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I just need to work - It is simple.
From my experience - it is the amateurs with way too much time on their hands are the never ending tweakers, constantly refining every fine detail and aspect of a program, hardly ever making music or working professionally with a DAW platform, and constantly on a forum posting about anything programming related.
In generall I agree.

But please do not generalize the intention. Whom you prefer as DAW creators, amateurs in music or amateurs in programming?

People do what they like but publish what they think is good.
I play music and even create it. You will not enjoy my creatures and my performance on any instrument. And I do not even try to publish anything from that.

But I am a programmer with 30 years experience. Am I amateur?
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:28 AM   #1015
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Only you can answer that question.
I have full respect for the programmers that write the great scripts we use.
I donate to many, and appreciate the great work.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:07 AM   #1016
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The point that I was trying to make, but obviously never managed, so I'll take another stab at it.

You use the hex code to create a real surface template (.rst) file
Which should be (imho) the default coding of any control surface, that way ANYONE with the same Controller can us it. NO TWEAKING INVOLVED, it is what it is...universal.

After that it's action templates (.axt) and fx templates (.fxt) All names...NO MORE HEX and that's where all the customising happens.

So if there is already an .rst file for your controller, YOU DON"T NEED TO WORRY, OR EVEN LOOK AT HEX.

So the best plan for everyone here, and future users, is to map your control surface create an .rst file, and then GeFF can add them to the database in the program, so the next new come, whatever there experience level just clicks and goes.
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Old 03-18-2018, 05:07 AM   #1017
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As can be seen in several discussions - many still running at the moment - the need for "easy bidirectional controller integration" is immense.

So it is wonderful that Geoff is doing this project, and hopefully soon, there will be quite a lot readily prepared configuration files for different controller hardware and for different workflow-details of their integration.

Thanks again !
-Michael
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:54 AM   #1018
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The point that I was trying to make
Your point is valid. I don't understand why people are trying to overcomplicate things.
Only controller mappings should be individual for every physical control surface, as the "database" will be completed in no time, since there are not much control surfaces exist, compared to the number of plugins.
Action templates (customization level for individual control surfaces) should have some basic template, which any particular user could then adapt to his needs. Either by hand, editing them in the text editor, or via some GUI app (built-in or external), on later stages.
And plugmaps should be universal for any controller.
It's that simple.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:02 AM   #1019
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This project looks really interesting, and kudos to you Geoff for carrying and working on this project!

I'm currently transitioning from Logic to Reaper, and the biggest issue is the big lack of MCU functionality, in Logic i'm so used to using it for sends and plugin control (i.e. EQ control, Compressor ratio adjustments etc.), and not just fader cotrol/mixing. It's always been my choice of controller as it's hard wearing and love the feedback from the display.

I looked into rebuilding Klinke's source into Xcode but then i found your (Geoff) csurf modified script and that's much better than the included with Reaper, i.e. the send functionality is brilliant, so thanks for that, and now i've seen this, so wondering if the end goal is to deliver what i'm wanting, saving me the hassle of deep diving into Klinke's great work for win users.

So, i guess what i'm asking is whether this project will (does?) allows plugin editing on MCU's? I'm yet to try it as the thread is quite a long read - But when i get some spare time i'm going to read it all so i'm better informed, and then try the beta.

Also, i use the older 'Logic Control' Mackie, which has had the MCU update, so if you want any feedback from me on particular features i'm happy to test, and also would love to submit presets to the community for plugins that i map in the future, as it's clear that's the biggest element in this project being the success it deserves to be.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:13 AM   #1020
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Quote:
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The point that I was trying to make, but obviously never managed, so I'll take another stab at it.

You use the hex code to create a real surface template (.rst) file
Which should be (imho) the default coding of any control surface, that way ANYONE with the same Controller can us it. NO TWEAKING INVOLVED, it is what it is...universal.

After that it's action templates (.axt) and fx templates (.fxt) All names...NO MORE HEX and that's where all the customising happens.

So if there is already an .rst file for your controller, YOU DON"T NEED TO WORRY, OR EVEN LOOK AT HEX.

So the best plan for everyone here, and future users, is to map your control surface create an .rst file, and then GeFF can add them to the database in the program, so the next new come, whatever there experience level just clicks and goes.
Thanks, well said as usual.

If people would actually just try it, they would get the hang of it pretty quickly I hope
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:14 AM   #1021
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Your point is valid. I don't understand why people are trying to overcomplicate things.
Only controller mappings should be individual for every physical control surface, as the "database" will be completed in no time, since there are not much control surfaces exist, compared to the number of plugins.
Action templates (customization level for individual control surfaces) should have some basic template, which any particular user could then adapt to his needs. Either by hand, editing them in the text editor, or via some GUI app (built-in or external), on later stages.
And plugmaps should be universal for any controller.
It's that simple.
Yes, agree !
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:19 AM   #1022
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Looking forward to trying this out. Just skim read from the start over the past couple of days, and it seems like what I have been looking for
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:20 AM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Skijumptoes View Post
This project looks really interesting, and kudos to you Geoff for carrying and working on this project!

I'm currently transitioning from Logic to Reaper, and the biggest issue is the big lack of MCU functionality, in Logic i'm so used to using it for sends and plugin control (i.e. EQ control, Compressor ratio adjustments etc.), and not just fader cotrol/mixing. It's always been my choice of controller as it's hard wearing and love the feedback from the display.

I looked into rebuilding Klinke's source into Xcode but then i found your (Geoff) csurf modified script and that's much better than the included with Reaper, i.e. the send functionality is brilliant, so thanks for that, and now i've seen this, so wondering if the end goal is to deliver what i'm wanting, saving me the hassle of deep diving into Klinke's great work for win users.

So, i guess what i'm asking is whether this project will (does?) allows plugin editing on MCU's? I'm yet to try it as the thread is quite a long read - But when i get some spare time i'm going to read it all so i'm better informed, and then try the beta.

Also, i use the older 'Logic Control' Mackie, which has had the MCU update, so if you want any feedback from me on particular features i'm happy to test, and also would love to submit presets to the community for plugins that i map in the future, as it's clear that's the biggest element in this project being the success it deserves to be.
Welcome, hope your transition proceeds as smoothly as possible.

The Logic Control is what I used to write the original software you are using, I think it is exactly the same as the MCU once it's been updated.

As far as plugin editing on MCU, absolutely, that's what this is project all about !!

Feel free to download the pre-alpha and play around, although things may change as we proceed, this gives a solid flavour of how things will work eventually, all feedback welcomed !
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:27 PM   #1024
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Thanks Geoff, so far the transition has been really good, i'm loving having a DAW that i make run in circles, rather than it controlling me.

So, just spent some time with the pre-alpha and i'm getting some strange fader behaviour, it basically freezes the machine for a few seconds and doesn't quite control them - but i've not really looked into why that's happening.

However, it's the plugin mapping that i'm having a problem with addressing, i tried it with the standard ReaComp plugin and my folders are setup as the attached image, i was hoping that this would let me trial the F1-F8 Keys to control values to the ReaComp, but nothing.

Also, with monitoring enabled i don't see any feedback when i move the ReaComp controls either.

Any advise on how to get one parameter working would be really appreciated, i could figure the rest out myself.

Edit: After reading page 5 of this thread i can see it was the debug window making the faders go strange - so they're nice and smooth with it off, fantastic.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:33 PM   #1025
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Thanks Geoff, so far the transition has been really good, i'm loving having a DAW that i make run in circles, rather than it controlling me.

So, just spent some time with the pre-alpha and i'm getting some strange fader behaviour, it basically freezes the machine for a few seconds and doesn't quite control them - but i've not really looked into why that's happening.

However, it's the plugin mapping that i'm having a problem with addressing, i tried it with the standard ReaComp plugin and my folders are setup as the attached image, i was hoping that this would let me trial the F1-F8 Keys to control values to the ReaComp, but nothing.

Also, with monitoring enabled i don't see any feedback when i move the ReaComp controls either.

Any advise on how to get one parameter working would be really appreciated, i could figure the rest out myself.

Edit: After reading page 5 of this thread i can see it was the debug window making the faders go strange - so they're nice and smooth with it off, fantastic.
Add this line:

TrackOnSelection MapTrackAndFXToWidgets

to the MCU.axt file in the Track folder.

Now when you select a Track you should see your mapping.

in the .fxt file you are trying to use buttons (F keys) for every parameter, typically you would use rotary for things like Threshold and switches for things like Bypass.
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:46 AM   #1026
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Hi,
I was always under the impression that logic control is a different protocol than MCP. Mackie control universal means it can be in MCP mode, what most ppl call MCU...or logic control mode. Universal. What do I win:-)
Sorry for ot. I just love this kinda talk.
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:55 AM   #1027
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Roughly speaking, The Mackie MCU is basically a logic control unit with a different protocol and some hardware enhancements, The original Logic control was specifically for use with Logic, still made my mackie of course, and then it got extended to other DAW's - hence the new 'universal' branding.

Logic control users were also offered an upgrade to use MCU 'universal' mode, so it's pretty much the difference - however, due to the rom onboard you can't update to the very latest MCU firmwares - but i don't think there's any major differences.

Geoff - tried that line and it works!! Not got any screen feedback from the plugin, i read all the pages last night (took me hours) and while it fried my head a bit taking a years information in such a short time i'm guessing the feedback for plugins isn't something that's active right now?

Fantastic work so far, i'll donate end of month.
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:48 AM   #1028
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Geoff - tried that line and it works!! Not got any screen feedback from the plugin, i read all the pages last night (took me hours) and while it fried my head a bit taking a years information in such a short time i'm guessing the feedback for plugins isn't something that's active right now?

Fantastic work so far, i'll donate end of month.
Thanks, you are correct, the screen feedback is on the to do list.

Wow, that's a lot of reading
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Old 03-24-2018, 08:06 AM   #1029
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How's the redesign going Geoff?
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:06 AM   #1030
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How's the redesign going Geoff?
Coming along well, just finished roughing in the new Actions, the ones that allow for the reduction described before (17,040 -> 12, I think it was).

It was extremely tedious, but now it is done, more or less

Now redesign commences on the matrix representation of the widgets, this is more thinking, with less tedium, but will still take a while...
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Old 03-24-2018, 11:50 PM   #1031
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Is there something to download for testing? I can't find links to anything.
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Old 03-25-2018, 01:19 AM   #1032
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yes: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip
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Old 03-26-2018, 05:18 AM   #1033
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Default Faderport 8 intergration

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for starting this project! I just came across this thread about possible full Faderport 8 integration in Studio One mode:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=18

Any news on progress so far?I'm at your disposal for any help you may need.

Cheers!
Play
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:02 AM   #1034
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Hi Geoff,

Thank you for starting this project! I just came across this thread about possible full Faderport 8 integration in Studio One mode:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=18

Any news on progress so far?I'm at your disposal for any help you may need.

Cheers!
Play
IN ABSOLUTELY NO OFFICIAL CAPACITY,
i'll say welcome to the thread, and suggest if you can, download and install the the pre-alpha, set up in reaper and enable midi in [] in the config window, then go thru your Faderport8 and map out the controls. you can see in any of the .rst files that come with CSI the format, basically the idea is to map as you see,so for example when FP8 says Pan/Param you would have PanParamRoatry Encoder ## ## ## ## (the values you'll get from the midi in window). Also check that one doesn't change as you select different strips.

It's something you can do now, while Geoff slaves away at the hard bit lol, and will allow you to get a feel for the initial structure, (which I believe is evolving) but building your real surface template .rst file is the starting point and shouldn't change.

Last edited by Freex; 03-27-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:03 PM   #1035
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Thank you, Freex - sounds good. I just found pre alpha download link and will try as you suggested.

I feel testing will give me more knowledge about mapping (one thing I didn't mess around with enough) and report here if I find some useful stuff.

Cheers and looking forward to developing this project!
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Old 03-28-2018, 04:18 PM   #1036
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Update FYI:

I am still working on the redesign, there is a lot to do to get it right, but progress is generally good, stay tuned...

Meanwhile, feel free to download and play with the pre alpha.
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Old 03-30-2018, 05:42 AM   #1037
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.rst design question for y'all:

Widgets are always uniquely addressable -- Play -- Fader2 -- Rotary3 -- etc.

We also have the concept of Channels, a collection of Widgets that have affinity, in this case the affinity is Channel number.

Other collections include Cells, like the C4, where you have 2 Display rows, a Rotary, and a Switch in each Cell.

Finally, consider the Console 1 where you have Input, Shape, EQ, Compressor, and Output sections, let's call these Clusters.

Ok, let's put this together:

Widget -- the usual suspects
Cell -- collection of Widgets
Channel -- collection of Cells in channel strip format -- e.g. MCU Channels
Matrix == collection of Cells in row-column format -- e.g. C4, Maschine, etc.
Cluster -- collection of Cells in section-layout format -- e.g. Console 1

Is there anything left out, as far as supporting controllers ?
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:46 AM   #1038
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For the Presonus Faderport 8,
It has a single pan/panarm knob, Playtimer has one in the comments above. I wonder whether the values for the knob change with different strip selection, or what?
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:11 PM   #1039
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Quote:
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For the Presonus Faderport 8,
It has a single pan/panarm knob, Playtimer has one in the comments above. I wonder whether the values for the knob change with different strip selection, or what?
I have one as well and would like very much to help out with this. With the Faderport 8 in MCU mode, using the pan knob seems to produce 3 variables - 1 "IN" followed by 2 "OUTS". the last "OUT" variable seems to remain consistent across all channels when adjusted, while the "IN" and the first "OUT" variable contain characters that change depending on which channel is selected.

Don't know if this helps anybody. I have no idea what I'm doing over here. :-)
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:27 PM   #1040
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I have one as well and would like very much to help out with this. With the Faderport 8 in MCU mode, using the pan knob seems to produce 3 variables - 1 "IN" followed by 2 "OUTS". the last "OUT" variable seems to remain consistent across all channels when adjusted, while the "IN" and the first "OUT" variable contain characters that change depending on which channel is selected.

Don't know if this helps anybody. I have no idea what I'm doing over here. :-)
Are you using Geoff's CSI?
It has an option to show in a window all messages coming IN, a quick turn of the knob with each strip selected would indicate whether things change,

Ideally you should be seeing something like,
Strip channel 1 - b0 10 ##
Strip channel 2 - b0 11 ##
Strip channel 3 - b0 12 ##

Especially in Mackie Mode, also if you could check it in Native mode would most likely add a good bit of info too.
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