Old 08-19-2017, 11:24 AM   #1
E.P.D. Gaffney
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Default Think I'm buying RME; advice?

So, I've asked here before which sound card should I buy and the answer was usually RME, and if I didn't have the money the responses rarely agreed. So I've saved a bit and here I am. But it's expensive and I want to make sure I do the right thing here.

First, my needs are primarily VSTs. My system already does that more than decently for full orchestras made of large VSTs. I assume that wouldn't change. I'd hope for a bit of an improvement but I think that's more down to my CPU at this point.

Second, when I do record real instruments or vocals, it will never be more than one instrument at a time, but I want it to sound excellent. I want to get the right card for that. I have some improvements to make besides the card, but I don't want to start off with the wrong audio interface.

Third, I have yet to get a clear answer on the issue of USB vs PCIe. And for that matter, my cursory search didn't yield any PCI-anything for RME. I'm just sort of assuming they're available. I'm assuming as well that if USB is all there is, with all the praise they get, there's no problem doing either of the two things I want with the right RME product. Is this correct?

So, those are my issues. If I get RME, I just need to know what people recommend for my situation.

Sorry, I'm sure this gets asked all the time but the search function didn't seem to care about that. Thank you.


My specs are these:
Operating System
Windows 10 Home 64-bit
CPU
AMD FX-8320 37 °C
Vishera 32nm Technology
RAM
16.0GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 577MHz (11-11-11-28)
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ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. M5A97 R2.0 (Socket 942) 34 °C
Graphics
S22D300 (1920x1080@60Hz)
2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 Ti (Gigabyte) 32 °C
Storage
465GB Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB (SSD) 33 °C
2794GB Seagate ST3000DM001-1CH166 (SATA) 35 °C
Optical Drives
ATAPI iHAS124 W
Audio
Realtek High Definition Audio
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:28 AM   #2
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Don't own an RME, but from everything I've read and heard, I'd say your going to be pretty happy!
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Old 08-19-2017, 12:00 PM   #3
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Check out the RME UFX and UFX+

I run 30 I/Os via USB 2 (@44.1/24Bit) on an RME UFX and its flawless.
Their UFX+ is a USB 3.0 / Thunderbolt device that does 192 (I think) I/O with Madi.

Given your tracking requirements you could also check out the smaller USB box, should be plenty fast.

Excellent drivers and very good routing options / talkback / monitor management with their TotalMix Software.
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Old 08-19-2017, 12:15 PM   #4
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I have similar recording requirements to you and bought a second hand RME Fireface UCX. At the moment I connect fia Firewire and can run major projects at 64 samples buffer size without a glitch. I have literally had no problems with it whatsoever - solid as a rock. And this on a Windows XP machine...

I've also used the same interface via USB on a Windows 8.1 laptop mobile rig and achieved the same latency but I have not pushed the laptop setup as hard as the studio PC.
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Old 08-19-2017, 12:18 PM   #5
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I think the Babyface Pro will do nicely. If you ever need more than 2 in, 4 out, it has ADAT. Just add an ADAT box and go with 8 in and 8 out extra...
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Old 08-19-2017, 12:24 PM   #6
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You can get an Rme hdsp 9632 pci-card pretty cheap these days.
New as well.

Stellar latency and rme stability.
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Old 08-19-2017, 02:21 PM   #7
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Or if you think you might want to go all-out with 24 ins and 24 outs on ADAT, an HDSP 9652 like I have. Old but ultra reliable and the drivers firmware et are regularly updated still.
FWIW I also have the Mk1 BabyFace and that too is a thing of joy.

With the pci version of the 9652 I get excellent latency figures until I literally bury it in virtual instruments etc, and even then it keeps soldiering on.
Excellent hardware.

DONT buy a non-HDSP version of the 962 or 9652, as they are VERY old and support was finally discontinued a few years ago.
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Old 08-19-2017, 02:43 PM   #8
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I also think a Babyface Pro will do you good, since you don't need a myriad of I/O.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:15 PM   #9
E.P.D. Gaffney
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I want to thank everyone for responding. Been looking at the HDSP 9632 and Babyface mostly. I like the idea of PCI-E, but I don't know if that's some unfounded fear that the USB would give me worse latency. Maybe they're both fine.

I'm looking at used stuff on ebay and all that. The prices are attractive on some of these. Any advice on what I'd look for to make sure it's good if I did pick it up used? I'm always leery to do PC parts used. I generally do fine with other stuff used off of ebay but I've never felt right about PC parts.

I looked for a PCI-E RME card and didn't see one, but I didn't have much time and I'm about to need to go for a while again. Is the latency excellent on their regular PCI cards? Do they not have a PCI-E one? Should I just go for USB? Please remember that I'm looking to do massive amounts of relatively high-end VSTs. More specifically, maybe thirty tracks of East West's Hollywood Gold stuff. Sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes mixed with other stuff, &c. But I need to be able to use a full orchestra without a headache if I'm spending this much money. At the moment, I do all right with ASIO4all, so I doubt this will be a problem, though I've heard it can be with some cards that are designed more for micing real instruments.

I remember some of ye on other posts I've made. Nice to see you. And EvilDragon, it's funny that I finally speak to you, as I think you've benn the OP or the solution for 90% of the posts here that I've used to answer my Reaper questions when it didn't get to the point that I needed to make my own post, and I mean for a good five years at this point. Your profile picture has always reminded me of a Darkane video, if you know who they are.

Thank you again, everyone.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:34 PM   #10
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They do have PCI-e products:

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/...ci_express.php


As far as latency over USB... it will be very slightly higher than PCI-e, however RME's drivers are topnotch and the difference is really really minimal - you will soon forget about A4A. I would go with Babyface because there's less chance of interference with components inside the computer case...
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:55 PM   #11
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I love my fireface 400. I've had it for 7 years and no issues. Driver is very good. Audio sound is very much more transparent than any of the lower end cards I tried. I never tried Apogee products but I believe that would be my other options, because I record a lot of synths and guitars, and it was just too annoying to record something that sounded great, and hear coloration that is unwanted when I hit play. No such problem with the Fireface. Good with latency also.
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Old 08-19-2017, 07:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
They do have PCI-e products:

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/...ci_express.php


As far as latency over USB... it will be very slightly higher than PCI-e, however RME's drivers are topnotch and the difference is really really minimal - you will soon forget about A4A. I would go with Babyface because there's less chance of interference with components inside the computer case...
I'm not so sure about advice on latency. I'd want to see some loop back results comparing the UCX with the RME pcie interfaces and an external converter rack.

The latency of the pcie interface includes the latency of the converter rack you use, and they can vary significantly.

The UCX has very fast converters.

Also, internal noise isn't an issue with the rme pcie interfaces, because they connect to external converters.

Anyway, I'd get the UCX. Two mic pre amps, 6 line ins, 8 line outs, 8 channel adat io if you need more channels later, spdif, midi, wordclock, and very low latency.

I believe the babyface pro has similar latency figures to the UCX, where as the older babyface isn't as fast. So the babyface pro could save you some money if you really don't care about the extra IO.

If you want latency similar to the UCX or pcie raydat with a fast converter rack, but you want the extra features of UFX line, then you want the UFX+, and that is even more expensive. It has lower latency than the old UFX, more like the UCX, and very similar to the best results I've seen from the pcie raydat series with fast converters.

I'm afraid it's hard to give clearer advice than that because practically all the manufacturers are useless when it comes to specifying latency performance. It isn't even listed in the RME specifications for their products!

Amazing isn't it, that such a critical figure isn't just listed so you can go to their page, and just look at the table comparing their interfaces (in the case of their pcie interfaces, figures with their external converter options).

It's bullshit. This shouldn't be hard, and it is. I should be able to give you exact figures, but that involves an endless search around the internet for somewhere that someone has done loop back test on one interface, maybe two if you are lucky, and so on until you can maybe build up a table of results.... and then you have to factor in that results for the pcie raydat interfaces may not include converter latency at all, or if they do, you are still left with the uncertainly of exactly how much of the latency was caused by whichever converter rack they used.

Very hard to do a fair comparison.


If I had to boil it all down, I'd get the UCX if that's affordable, otherwise I'd get the babyface pro.

If I wanted to run 32 channels of analog IO, in a computer permanently set up in a studio, with good low latency converter racks, then I might think about they pcie raydat... but then again, a UFX+ would probably perform just as well on latency, and not far off on how much I could load up the CPU before crackles.

OK, shortest possible version. All the RME stuff is good. The pcie raydat once had distinctly better latency than the USB or firewire options (assuming you use very fast converters) and better performance at high cpu load, but with the new ones like the UCX, UFX+ and babyface pro, the figures are very similar. There are now much fewer situations where it would make sense to go for the more complicated option of the pcie system.

Hope that helped make things somewhat clearer for you.

Last edited by drumphil; 08-19-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 08-19-2017, 07:40 PM   #13
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Once again, I want to thank everyone. I'm grateful to have so many people that just want to help others.

Glad to see you, drumphil. You may or may not remember me but you helped me one hell of a lot a few months back. Saved me from buying a stupid interim interface so I could continue my work using my on-board as I saved for a proper card. What you're saying about the latency and interference is what I was coming to expect, more or less. But the sentiment I felt most acutely was yes, it is hard, and no, it shouldn't be. With numbers like RME's, you'd think they'd want to publish them.

I didn't know there was an older Babyface and I nearly snatched up the original for a couple hundred bob, but I let the bid end when I realised the word 'pro' kept coming up in the searches and wasn't listed on the bid. I'm glad I caught myself.

Looked at the UCX and indeed I'll have to pass at that price. I really don't need the inputs anyway. If in some emergency I want them I'll miss out, but I'll take that chance for the price difference.

Last thing I really need to know is what should I do about looking for a Babyface Pro used? I'm not going for that specifically, but if I found a used one on-line for half the price for example, what would I want to know to decide how worth it would it be to grab that?

Thanks a million.

Edit: What do I need besides the Babyface Pro itself? I just want to record my singing and some voice acting. I have a Sennheiser MD 421, an XLR cable, and the specs listed above. Anything else? Cheers.

Last edited by E.P.D. Gaffney; 08-19-2017 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.P.D. Gaffney View Post
Glad to see you, drumphil. You may or may not remember me but you helped me one hell of a lot a few months back.
Yep, I remember

Quote:
Last thing I really need to know is what should I do about looking for a Babyface Pro used? I'm not going for that specifically, but if I found a used one on-line for half the price for example, what would I want to know to decide how worth it would it be to grab that?
Good luck with that. They haven't been out very long, and unless your crack dealer is at the front door with a baseball bat looking for his money, not the sort of thing you really get rid of.

If it's for sale at this point for half price, either something is broken, or someones crack dealer is about to break something.

Quote:
Edit: What do I need besides the Babyface Pro itself? I just want to record my singing and some voice acting. I have a Sennheiser MD 421, an XLR cable, and the specs listed above. Anything else? Cheers.
Nope, that's all... Well to engage smartarsemode, you'll need a cable to connect it to your amp/speakers, and headphones if you want to listen through them. Oh, and a mic stand. And I know you already have the computer. :P
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:04 AM   #15
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FWIW I have the original BabyFace and you really arent gaining a huge amount buying the pro. Go read up on the differences and you will see what I mean.
As far as the difference in latency between MY two interfaces, there IS a difference but it only becomes significant when you start stacking up the I/O.
For your purposes there probably isnt gping to be enough of a difference to matter.
Regarding WHY manufacturers dont quote latency performance, drumphil: there are so many variables involved that have nothing to do with the actual interface`s performance (computer performance, plugins used, number of simultaneous record armed tracks, etc) that it isnt really very practical to expect a figure on latency performance.

O.P - I paid £300 for my Babyface used, about 6 months old, and would definitely look seriously at the original over the pro unless you find a pro REALLY cheap.
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:28 AM   #16
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I'll say that Babyface Pro is better integrated and looks sleeker, since it doesn't have that godawful breakout cable, all ports are directly on the unit itself, which I find a better design overall. Might not be important to the OP. Just sayin'.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Regarding WHY manufacturers dont quote latency performance, drumphil: there are so many variables involved that have nothing to do with the actual interface`s performance (computer performance, plugins used, number of simultaneous record armed tracks, etc) that it isnt really very practical to expect a figure on latency performance
That isn't quite right. If you buy an RME UCX, it should give you the exact same round trip latency figure at a given buffer size, no matter what.

Performance at that latency level is another issue, but that's answering a different question.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:00 AM   #18
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Quote:
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That isn't quite right. If you buy an RME UCX, it should give you the exact same round trip latency figure at a given buffer size, no matter what.
And it does. Measured with the ideal computer, of course

The only problem is that I don't have an ideal computer. Mine has an OS. I even run two different versions on it. And Windows, occasionally. These all give slightly different numbers.

You could imagine a latency measurement standard, if you could agree on the ideal computer. It still wouldn't be exact, though.

Quote:
Performance at that latency level is another issue, but that's answering a different question.
My FF400 works flawlessly with Mavericks. It doesn't with El Capital on the exact same hardware. It breaks up every four minutes or so...

That doesn't mean the FF400 is incompatible with El Capital, as several colleagues run a FF400 on it.

It's a strange world, out there, master Jack
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:38 AM   #19
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O.P - I paid £300 for my Babyface used, about 6 months old, and would definitely look seriously at the original over the pro unless you find a pro REALLY cheap.
That's a bargain, and if that's what they're going for now then ...wow. Do that.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:39 AM   #20
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Exactly. The difference between theoretical and practical.

ED - Agreed but if he is anything like me, he will seldom if ever use the breakout cable.

I toyed with the idea of making u a smaller version with just a mic in but decided it want worth it for the few times I use a mic input rather than hooking up a hardware pre to the line in.

I was looking at the difference between paying 200gbp for a used Babyface a against a used Babyface pro.

£525 B stock or £525 used it would appear, looking at completed sales on ebay.

BIG difference.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:51 AM   #21
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I'll say that Babyface Pro is better integrated and looks sleeker, since it doesn't have that godawful breakout cable, all ports are directly on the unit itself, which I find a better design overall. Might not be important to the OP. Just sayin'.
I have the BF Pro. I use it for recording rehearsal with my Surface etc. I didn't have the previous version but I'm not usually a fan of break out cables. The pro has been great so far.
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:55 AM   #22
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Just connected a mono synth to the BabySmajjL Pro to test the MIDI/Audio VS a metronome, happy with the roundtrip thingie also.. so my "ms" is measured in happy/smile-units.
I am having issues finding problems/critique with that thing and USB seems to be enough for civilians, and so practical to have the brick at your side where ever you are.
Ps, I am on a 7700K system though, but yeah, no regrets from me.
My method of getting one was to get "pixeled off" and just, enooooough! I am going for it, now bring me some noodles.
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:20 PM   #23
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Haha good stuff.

So, let's say i find a deal where they say it's 'demo' equipment, or 'blemished' or whatever, and they're taking it down by 15% or thereabouts, as I've seen in a couple of places (zzounds for one), is that normally a good idea in a situation like this? or should I just go for the full price of the brand new unit?

That's my last question I think before I order this thing.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:02 PM   #24
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Oh and FWIW the original BabyFace works JUST as well on my Mac Mini.

Running Logic Pro AND Reaper.

Frankly you cant go wrong with any of the recommended interfaces, its just down to how much you want to spend. I have now owned 3 different RME interfaces and every one has been a stellar performer on everything from XP to Win10 and of course OSX
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:35 PM   #25
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So, there you go, pre-gratulations I Frankel'ly don't think you can go wrong either with a real "dealer"
Cool times!
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