Old 04-05-2015, 06:19 PM   #1
LDstudios
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Default Does ReaInsert work yet?

Hey people!

About 3 or so years ago I gave Reaper a good hard spin. There was an issue with the ReaInsert plugin though that made it a deal breaker for mixing in. It seemed as I would build a mix, adding hardware effects one by one using the ReaInsert plugin, pressing the 'detect' button to find the latency... the application would seemingly shift ADC amount and all of the reaInsert plugins and hardware would fall out of alignment.

You would have to bypass all your hardware units, then go back through all the ReaInsert instances and hit the detect button again. Mix for a few minutes more...

Then repeat the process as Reaper seemed to lose its junk again.

Does anyone know if this issue has been corrected?
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:26 PM   #2
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I still cant get it to work properly. I have x samples written down for gear combinations. INCREDIBLY frustrating to use. Im pretty much all outboard atm so debating going back to PT?

Some people have reported improvement in the v5 alpha. I have not seen any whatsoever. Such a crucial thing to have.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:31 PM   #3
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I still cant get it to work properly. I have x samples written down for gear combinations. INCREDIBLY frustrating to use. Im pretty much all outboard atm so debating going back to PT?

Some people have reported improvement in the v5 alpha. I have not seen any whatsoever. Such a crucial thing to have.

Yeah, definitely!

I am currently working in Protools HD specifically for this reason. It is so crucial that I am considering swallowing the $599 a year support plan fee in Protools to keep it... which pisses me off.
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:47 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by lxm View Post
Some people have reported improvement in the v5 alpha. I have not seen any whatsoever. Such a crucial thing to have.
and you have emailed cockos to tell them ?
If they dont know they cant fix, ignore the yes men and inform the devs so it can get fixed
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:58 PM   #5
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and you have emailed cockos to tell them ?
If they dont know they cant fix, ignore the yes men and inform the devs so it can get fixed
I have tried many times in the past. Nothing gets done. I posted in the pre thread. Once again.... Nothing. Defeated.
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Old 04-05-2015, 11:22 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
and you have emailed cockos to tell them ?
If they dont know they cant fix, ignore the yes men and inform the devs so it can get fixed
It is a very well known bug that has been kicking around for years. Given how long it has been around for without being addressed, it wouldn't surprise me if it existed at quite a fundamental level in the program... making it very difficult to fix.
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:51 AM   #7
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whats your actual problem w/ReaInsert?
it works here, i dont need to manually ping/detect latency anymore.
i use v5pre.
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Old 04-06-2015, 02:11 AM   #8
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It's beeing worked on in the 5.x prereleases. Check them out and report if they work for you; http://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37
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Old 04-06-2015, 08:16 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LDstudios View Post
It is a very well known bug that has been kicking around for years. Given how long it has been around for without being addressed, it wouldn't surprise me if it existed at quite a fundamental level in the program... making it very difficult to fix.
Please try ReaInsert in V5 and see if it solves the problem for you...and then report back. So far ReaInsert has been fine for me but I'm only using 2 instances at the most.
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:00 AM   #10
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What exactly is better in V5 for you guys? When I try and ping it's still off, as is auto. Still need to adjust manually. Destroys workfow
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:11 AM   #11
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Please report in the prerelease forum and include a detailed description of reproduction procedure and/or test project. Thank you.
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:33 AM   #12
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Please report in the prerelease forum and include a detailed description of reproduction procedure and/or test project. Thank you.
Im just testing with a snare or kick drum. Simple transient. This is what I get in v5 auto:


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Old 04-06-2015, 11:36 AM   #13
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Please move this discussion to the prerelease forum.
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:36 AM   #14
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Ping(below) is slightly better but who cares if I have to move it alot or a little it dosent really help anything.


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Old 04-06-2015, 02:02 PM   #15
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I suggest you start a reainsert thread in the pre forum so it doesnt get lost here, keep posting until they fix it, justin has said he wants reainsert robust recently.
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Old 04-06-2015, 06:07 PM   #16
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I recently managed to sort out virtually any latency issues with ReaInsert and audio/MIDI in general (still on v4.77 but it also works in 5pre22). You may wanna run the following tests using an additional, portable installation of Reaper to keep all settings of your "production version" untouched. The goal is to find out if your current settings produce audio and MIDI recordings that are in sync with Reaper's grid or not and if ReaInsert is correctly compensating for latencies.

Audio latency test

1. Insert a click track via Insert -> Click source, move it to start at bar 5 and extend it to 20 seconds in length. The click track will provide a very accurate reference signal for the tests.
2. Configure a hardware output send for the click track (via an unused hardware out).
3. Create a second track and set its hardware input to receive the signal, then record-arm the track.
4. Set the cursor to bar 3 and record 10 seconds of the click. Zoom in closely and check if the resulting audio wave form is off and not in sync with the source click track. If it is out of sync, proceed with the test, else, your latency settings my be already ok and you can jump to the MIDI latency test.
5. Go to menu Options -> Preferences -> Audio -> Recording and uncheck use audio driver reported latency.
6. Load ReaInsert as an effect into the click track and configure an in/out loop for the signal with it (connecting the chosen hardware output of the interface directly to the hardware input chosen in ReaInsert; no further external processing).
7. Disable automatic device latency adjustment in ReaInsert and click "Ping detect"
8. Type the reported latency value into the field "Samples" under Options -> Preferences -> Audio -> Recording -> Input manual offset.
9. Remove ReaInsert from the click track and instead set up a hardware output send for it.
10. Choose the appropriate input on the second track and record the click signal as audio.
11. Zoom into the audio wave form of the recording and check if it's perfectly aligned with the source click track.
12. Maybe you will have to correct Input manual offset by one or two samples to achieve perfect alignment.

MIDI latency test

1. Open an empty project and insert a click track as a reference as described above.
2. Configure another track as a MIDI track (MIDI input, MIDI output, load ReaControlMIDI, choose a percussive sound with a fast attack in your keyboard)
3. Additionally, create an audio track to record the keyboards output signal simultaneously as audio. Record-arm both tracks.
4. Configure Reaper so that you only hear the click track and no signal from the keyboard while tapping on a key.
5. Start recording and try to tap one key on the keyboard as precisely as possible according to the click.
6. Zoom into both recorded tracks. The audio track should be pretty much aligned to the click track (only some human jitter), the MIDI track will probably be shifted by a noticeable amount.
7. Due to the lack of a dedicated MIDI input latency compensation in Reaper the MIDI item has to be manually nudged to the right location. The perfectly aligned audio recording serves as a reference to accomplish this.
8. Set the time ruler to "samples".
9. Zoom into the items and drag a time selection to measure the offset between a MIDI note and the start of the corresponding audio wave.
10. Run the action "Item edit: Nudge/set ...". In the leftmost drop-down menu choose "Nudge" then "position", then type in the measured sample offset and set the last menu to "samples".
11. Click on the MIDI item to select it.
12. In the nudge dialog click on "Nudge left" to nudge the item backwards on the time line.
13. Zoom in again and verify that the item has been shifted to be perfectly aligned with the audio wave form. If necessary, undo the shift and repeat the nudge process with a corrected sample value.


Recording MIDI as audio

In case you want to record MIDI tracks as audio (recording the audio output of a keyboad while playing back a MIDI track into it), another latency has to be compensated for: MIDI output latency.

1. Create a MIDI track with an Item containing 6 bars of quantized MIDI notes.
2. Create an audio track and record the audio output of the keyboard while playing back the quantized MIDI item.
3. Zoom into the audio wave afterwards to verify the amount of offset.
4. Go to menu Options -> Preferences -> Audio -> MIDI Devices and find the resprective MIDI output used by the keyboard. Double click it and type in the offset in milliseconds under Offset output to this device by: XX.XX ms.
5. Record the keyboard signal again and zoom in to check if the offset is gone and MIDI is perfectly aligned with the audio wave form.

You should now be able to
- record audio and MIDI perfectly aligned
- use ReaInsert plugin without any latency issues
- record MIDI as audio with no alignment issues

Please report back if these procedures work for you as well, thanks.

Last edited by SonicAxiom; 04-06-2015 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:28 PM   #17
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lxm, use thumbnails when posting bigger images!
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:59 PM   #18
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@Sonicaxiom

While your hints are quite useful for the reainsert part, the measuring and optimising midi does not really work.

Measuring : the midi latency in a reaper environment is the range of 12-40 msec. I doubt that it is possible to type in as accurate as required here. Simply use a click from an external drumbox and re record that.

Recording midi as audio : setting a negative offset in the midi preferences does not work as expected. (In fact it does not work at all) as the midi offset must be smaller than the audio buffer size. I you have a "better" audio device, this device will require only a small audio-buffer, much shorter than the midi latency. So you cannot define a working midi latency compensation.
This bug is well documented and of no interest for the developers.
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:32 AM   #19
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@Sonicaxiom
This bug is well documented and of no interest for the developers.
I used to think that as well but it's not true...
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:43 PM   #20
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Ping(below) is slightly better but who cares if I have to move it alot or a little it dosent really help anything.


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Are you trying to show off the latency here or what?

Cause that could well be phase shift that's going on there. Especially considering that the more effected (clipped and possibly EQd signal) has more of it.
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:54 PM   #21
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Sonicaxiom, afaik, reainsert has nothing to do with recording.

In a daw, the recorded file are nudge left by the amount of the driver report latency.


When you use reainsert while mixing, it's only about playback.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:51 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
Sonicaxiom, afaik, reainsert has nothing to do with recording.

In a daw, the recorded file are nudge left by the amount of the driver report latency.


When you use reainsert while mixing, it's only about playback.
The recording and playback offset used to mess up the the reainsert ping.

The driver reported latency also changed on my system from requiring 72 samples to 3 between v4 and v5.
If LXM isn't resetting that it could be explaining his difficulties.


I also can't figure out what LXM is showing in his screenshots.
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Old 04-07-2015, 07:59 PM   #23
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Sorry about the pics ED and all. I'll resize next time.

I'm not sure how else to explain it? In the pics the top one is the original file. The one below is what was output/recorded with ReaInsert. Ping and auto both dont adjust correctly for the latency and the waveforms are off as a result.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:38 PM   #24
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Those pics aren't that big IMO. I noticed you're sending the same signal to both outputs. This is going to give you a volume boost that might not work in your favor. Use the plugin pins or track stereo width for mono instead.

a square wav or single sample click would be a better demonstration or put the cursor on the zero crossing of the sending track, or make a time selection in samples to measure how far off it is.

Does it sound right on playback or only after recording?
What is the interface?
How is the hardware connected?
ASIO/CoreAudio/ASIO4ALL?
Do you have a manual recording or playback offset in preferences?
Pinging with the hardware in bypass?
How are you recording the output of the plugin onto the track?
Does it sound right when rendering the mix online?
How are you routing audio through the plugin, as in same track or as an aux?
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Those pics aren't that big IMO.
They are if you're on a laptop that's below 1920x1080 screen resolution
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:27 AM   #26
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Did the test in 4.77 (RME FIREFACE UCX as audio driver - 2048 buffer size - no adat or external DAC used for looping reainsert)

- click source track

- bypass all fx monitoring fx (which introduce delay after the master buss and outside the project so it's not take in count for PDC report - even while recording)

- add a new track, send the click track on the new one

- reainsert on the new track, disable automatic delay compensation and use ping

- reload all fx monitoring

- work as expected with null test

full procedure in licecap

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../reainsert.gif
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:49 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by henge1 View Post
I used to think that as well but it's not true...
Could you provide SOME evidence on your statement ?

Last edited by Mink99; 04-08-2015 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:43 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by henge1 View Post
Please try ReaInsert in V5 and see if it solves the problem for you...and then report back. So far ReaInsert has been fine for me but I'm only using 2 instances at the most.

Thank you kind sir! I shall give it a spin and see how it goes.

Fingers crossed!
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:49 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
Did the test in 4.77 (RME FIREFACE UCX as audio driver - 2048 buffer size - no adat or external DAC used for looping reainsert)

- click source track

- bypass all fx monitoring fx (which introduce delay after the master buss and outside the project so it's not take in count for PDC report - even while recording)

- add a new track, send the click track on the new one

- reainsert on the new track, disable automatic delay compensation and use ping

- reload all fx monitoring

- work as expected with null test

full procedure in licecap

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../reainsert.gif

Thanks for the detailed reply. It doesn't quite cover the issues being explained here though. I had no problem getting the reaInsert plugin to properly time align. The trouble was keeping them time aligned. I don't know what was causing it, but periodically reaper would just drop the ball and you would have to go back through all 20 or so reaInsert instances, hit the bypass button on the hardware and re-ping them to realign the tracks in the session.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:23 AM   #30
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I can't get re-insert to work for me using Reaper version 4.77

Last edited by manley; 04-08-2015 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:08 AM   #31
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Go to the pre forum, use v5, and report your issues, it is getting preety boring people moaning in thos thread without using the updated reainsert or directly letting the people who can fix it know.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:15 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Go to the pre forum, use v5, and report your issues, it is getting preety boring people moaning in thos thread without using the updated reainsert or directly letting the people who can fix it know.
I ain't moaning just answering the question so what's the problem!


"Go to the pre forum, use v5"

This doesn't mean anything to me unless you mean it's a Reaper update
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:23 AM   #33
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Got to the forum (bottom of the list) named 'REAPER Pre release Discussion'
in there you will find pre release versions of v5 of REAPER, this has an updated version of Reainsert (Justin, the inventor and main developer of REAPER has said recently he wants to make Reainsert robust)

Test this new version and then create a new thread in the pre forum noting all of your issues and if possible email Cockos with those issues (support@cockos)
if you do this, they will confirm the issues and most likely fix them.

By the way that is not just for Manley but everybody having issues, it is pointless saying "doesnt work" here
inform the developers and get it fixed
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:25 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Got to the forum (bottom of the list) named 'REAPER Pre release Discussion'
in there you will find pre release versions of v5 of REAPER, this has an updated version of Reainsert (Justin, the inventor and main developer of REAPER has said recently he wants to make Reainsert robust)

Test this new version and then create a new thread in the pre forum noting all of your issues and if possible email Cockos with those issues (support@cockos)
if you do this, they will confirm the issues and most likely fix them.
Ok Thanks for the info!

"By the way that is not just for Manley but everybody having issues, it is pointless saying "doesnt work" here
inform the developers and get it fixed"

Yes you've made a good point there i should have done that..my wrist has been firmly slapped

Id add a smiley face but can't remember how to LOL..

Last edited by manley; 04-08-2015 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:47 AM   #35
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Im not actually slapping wrists, i am being selfish, our entire setup is moving to a new much larger facility and is all packed up in storage, currently doing the live rooms walls.
so i cant test personally, and i know that if these issues are not reported back properly that when i get everything wired up and it doesnt work, its too late, they will be back on working on MIDI or something and reainsert will be forgotten, if they dont know they cant fix
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:27 AM   #36
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Im not actually slapping wrists, i am being selfish, our entire setup is moving to a new much larger facility and is all packed up in storage, currently doing the live rooms walls.
so i cant test personally, and i know that if these issues are not reported back properly that when i get everything wired up and it doesnt work, its too late, they will be back on working on MIDI or something and reainsert will be forgotten, if they dont know they cant fix
Aha i see!!
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:55 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
Sonicaxiom, afaik, reainsert has nothing to do with recording.

In a daw, the recorded file are nudge left by the amount of the driver report latency.


When you use reainsert while mixing, it's only about playback.
Unfortunately, I cannot trust the driver reported latency. It makes all my recordings land on the wrong spot. I'm using ReaInsert to check the effective latency. Manual adjustment remedies issues with ReaInsert usage itself as well as with recording exactly aligned audio (at least for me).

Like LDstudios, I've got the impression that in Reaper latency can vary slightly from time to time requiring periodic manual readjustment of the compensation value which is a pain.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
Like LDstudios, I've got the impression that in Reaper latency can vary slightly from time to time requiring periodic manual readjustment of the compensation value which is a pain.
Hmm, that's pretty weird. I can't really confirm that from my experience.
I'm also thinking about reason for that.

Whenever I used analog outboard, i've used manual approach.
Interface latency for normal recording was manually compensated, if it was necessary, for perfect alignment.
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph...erface_Latency
And then ReaInsert was used without any automatic device latency adjustment nor automatic pinging. I've just found necessary delay for particular sample rate, put it to "Additional Delay Compensation field" and saved respective ReaInsert presets (eg. static 44,1k and 48k), which I use according to project samplerate.
No issues with it.
Reported delay by ASIO driver, which is used by all of automatic compensations is at many cases inaccurate, because if you have interface with multiple types of I/Os (eg. analog, AES, ADAT).. there is no chance to report correct delay to DAW, because one value is shared for all types.
Not to mention additional delay, when digital I/Os are used with external converters.

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Old 04-08-2015, 04:26 PM   #39
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I'm using an Antelope Orion32 which is connected to a Win7 laptop only via USB. Using ReaInsert's manual ping showes a round-trip latency value of 3123 samples. Un-checking "Use audio driver reported latency" and typing this value into the "Input manual offset" instead yields perfectly aligned recordings (also without ReaInsert).

However, from time to time I have to correct the value by one or two samples (+/-).
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
I'm using an Antelope Orion32 which is connected to a Win7 laptop only via USB. Using ReaInsert's manual ping showes a round-trip latency value of 3123 samples. Un-checking "Use audio driver reported latency" and typing this value into the "Input manual offset" instead yields perfectly aligned recordings (also without ReaInsert).

However, from time to time I have to correct the value by one or two samples (+/-).
Hmm, that's interesting. By using fixed values, it shouldn't move nowhere as delay should be static. Unless there is something happening at driver/hardware layer. Just for my curiosity, after occurrence of it, have you tried to save project, close reaper and open it again? If it remedy issue and delay skew will be fixed, i would suspect some issue with internal PDC recalculation (Reainsert shouldn't be any different than other compensated plugins). If it stays, i would probably address it to driver/hardware (I don't know, some dynamic buffering for instance, but it will be very uncommon).

Btw. I've also used Orion32, but connected via SSL MX4 MADI card. USB is used only for control panel. But I've tested it also on other configurations like RME HDSPe and EMU 1212M at home.

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