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07-20-2012, 08:15 PM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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i dont give a crap about all the semantics here. I see the point of different ways of working and want it
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07-21-2012, 01:36 AM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
i dont give a crap about all the semantics here. I see the point of different ways of working and want it
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Wasn't trying to make it about semantics. But since Lawrence and others were getting a bit huffy about people "not understanding," I felt compelled to point out that the reason IS purely semantic. "Track based editing" implies itself as a mutually exclusive alternative to "item based." And even if it's not being so posited, we Item Defenders still get that feeling BECAUSE of the word choice.
The Track Team would do well not to stir up those defenses if they want our support and all it requires is the consolation that we will not have to do without our items.
And to my recollection, even YOUR first post in this thread was to defend them. So, perhaps you should care. Or recognize the role of semantics in reaching an understanding. This isn't even about different ways of working, it's about eliminating limitations on workflow, period. And if we are bickering pointlessly over (essentially) TERMS we get NOWHERE!
Really, with all this talk of philosophy, I would have though that defining our terms would be the obvious first step...
The score:
Track Team: 0
Item Defenders: 0
LET'S CALL IT A BLOODY TIE AND MAKE SOME PROGRESS, SHALL WE? I hate when discussions become about winning instead of the actual thing being discussed. And I think I'm not alone in that...
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07-21-2012, 02:30 AM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,012
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Instead of track based or item based editing, wouldn't most users agree the biggest downfall is the restriction on only being able to edit one item at once.
If we could edit multiple items at once, using the track manager (not filter box) one can quickly add all items on the track to the current editor. If someone prefers to work on a per item basis just set the selection criteria when opening a new midi editor to show everything selected (which can be modified with the filter box). That part of Reaper is a little more versatile thankfully... but its the editing shortcomings that complicate the situation.
This is the same as how Reaper handles multiple midi channels in the same editor but applies to different items.
The other option that would assist for track based editing would be the ability to remove part borders in the midi editor - so if you insert a note where there is no clip, it either creates a new clip or extends the current clip if the nearest clip is within one bar (for the current track). This means a user could work the same way one would with Sonar and Pro Tools (unsure if Logic works this way, not overly familiar with it). If a user wants restrictions to only edit what is in the clip (naturally clips can be extended within the editor). Both behaviors exist in other DAW's, the only downside would be a user would need to open the midi editor by having a clip already on a track then opening the editor; I doubt this would cause issues.
So two requests would fulfill what most are asking for:
- When more than one items exists in the editor a user can edit these as if they were all in the same editor.
- Option to remove part borders and auto insert clips in the arrange when a midi note is added outside the current clip (or if a user selects a track where no midi clips are active create a clip for this track. If a clip is nearby, say one bar within the notes placement, extend this clip instead.
Thoughts?
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07-21-2012, 03:09 AM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes
Instead of track based or item based editing, wouldn't most users agree the biggest downfall is the restriction on only being able to edit one item at once.
Thoughts?
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that's what i been say anyway...
The MIDI editor should zoom to fill with all notes in selected items by default as well.
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07-21-2012, 05:19 AM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
Wasn't trying to make it about semantics. But since Lawrence and others were getting a bit huffy about people "not understanding,"
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Not really, and not huffy. The "not understanding" part was more about people implying or suggesting that they'd have to change workflow or that they'd lose something even though ED, Ivan and I repeatedly told them otherwise, demonstrating that with very concise graphic examples at various times, that they wouldn't lose anything and that there's nothing to "fear" from such a change..
So... you misunderstand what was not being understood.
Everybody "understands" multi-clip editing. The frustration was trying to get people to understand that changing to a system like Cubase's (to make that happen and to cover all the bases, always editing from the track level) wouldn't cause them to lose any methodology or functionality they use now with midi clips.
The misunderstanding in a nutshelll...
"But I like being able to work with individual midi clips."
"You'd still be able to do that."
"But I need that individual focus."
"You'd still be able to get it."
"But an Artist needs to sometimes focus on a single thing."
"Uh... see the above."
So either some were misunderstanding that there is absolutely no functional or practical workflow difference them - the two design methods - where they remain the same, or just not paying attention to the many examples given that clearly shows that.
Last edited by Lawrence; 07-21-2012 at 05:43 AM.
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07-21-2012, 05:45 AM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
And to my recollection, even YOUR first post in this thread was to defend them. So, perhaps you should care.
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it's pretty clear I learned some things since then. I hope that's allowed. I've been here a while and learned a lot
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07-21-2012, 06:00 AM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes
So two requests would fulfill what most are asking for:
- When more than one items exists in the editor a user can edit these as if they were all in the same editor.
- Option to remove part borders and auto insert clips in the arrange when a midi note is added outside the current clip (or if a user selects a track where no midi clips are active create a clip for this track. If a clip is nearby, say one bar within the notes placement, extend this clip instead.
Thoughts?
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Good ideas imo, but we do have to remember that Schwa has already chimed in on this directly saying.. (paraphrasing of course)...
"To allow what people are asking for would take a rather drastic change to the current fundamental design and potentially impact many other parts of the overall midi design that are based on it."
E.G. The "item based" editing foundation propagates through everything midi in Reaper so (apparently) it's not an easy change or patch or they'd have probably patched it already.
The discussion that is probably taking place at Cockos is whether they should tear a good bit of it down or not, the relative pros and cons of hacking in a "behavior solution" vs. just kind of redoing the fundamental design for a more complete longer term solution.
If they do the latter it will probably be a rather long pre-release period. These kinds of major changes are typically done much earlier in development to potentially impact far fewer people... so my bet would be a "behavior solution", an emulation of sorts.
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07-21-2012, 06:24 AM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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I'd rather they tear it up and start from scratch with a better overall behavior. The way it currently is is not very good for fast workflow.
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07-21-2012, 07:01 AM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Good ideas imo, but we do have to remember that Schwa has already chimed in on this directly saying.. (paraphrasing of course)...
"To allow what people are asking for would take a rather drastic change to the current fundamental design and potentially impact many other parts of the overall midi design that are based on it."
E.G. The "item based" editing foundation propagates through everything midi in Reaper so (apparently) it's not an easy change or patch or they'd have probably patched it already.
The discussion that is probably taking place at Cockos is whether they should tear a good bit of it down or not, the relative pros and cons of hacking in a "behavior solution" vs. just kind of redoing the fundamental design for a more complete longer term solution.
If they do the latter it will probably be a rather long pre-release period. These kinds of major changes are typically done much earlier in development to potentially impact far fewer people... so my bet would be a "behavior solution", an emulation of sorts.
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Good point, I seem to have missed that post by our sock puppet lord. Cheers mate.
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07-21-2012, 07:47 AM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I'd rather they tear it up and start from scratch with a better overall behavior. The way it currently is is not very good for fast workflow.
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Agree, but in complete fairness to the devs, that may be a really, really tough choice / decision because the user base is (apparently) pretty big already and backward compatibility may be a really, really huge problem in that case... making older midi projects compatible with a new design.
Probably not a small engineering challenge.
Weighing all things and considering all things... a "behavior solution" might actually be the best thing for everyone at this rather advanced stage of development. If it was a version 1 DAW partly tearing it down would be much less problematic.
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07-21-2012, 08:16 AM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Yeah.. Unfortunately, that's how hard things become when you start off with wrong paradigm.
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07-21-2012, 08:22 AM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Yeah.. Unfortunately, that's how hard things become when you start off with wrong paradigm.
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not wrong, not worse, just different.
it's been fast as hell for me thus far. Maybe it's just not for you
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07-21-2012, 08:54 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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It definitely isn't fast enough when working orchestral arrangements with a lot of items on a lot of tracks.
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07-21-2012, 09:26 AM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
It definitely isn't fast enough when working orchestral arrangements with a lot of items on a lot of tracks.
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ok
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07-21-2012, 02:11 PM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Posts: 480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
ED was asked. ED agrees infinitely. Item based is just WRONG for MIDI. I mean, you can still have items and use them as "clips" which you can duplicate, stretch, compress, split, etc. (see those Krueger videos, for the millionth time!), but truthfully, I want to be able to see all items in the MIDI editor, and NOT WORRY about which one of those items is actually selected for editing... If I have a drum track with multiple items around, and I want to change something on ALL kicks there (like humanization or velocity randomization, whatever), I simply cannot do it intuitively from the MIDI editor, without messing up my items by glueing them. THIS IS SO WRONG!
Be it a design decision or not, [b]it was a bad one from the start.[b] The pros do not outweight the cons in this case. It is not impossible to change it. Cockos just needs to do the mileage, but they don't seem eager to do it, which will ultimately probably make me leave Reaper sooner or later... Because I really need this paradigm of MIDI workflow in Reaper.
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OMG +100000 exactly Exactly Exactly What could possibly be more intuitive than highlighting part or all of a track(s) and performing a list of functions (like Quantize,Transpose,Groove Quantize, Velocity) Etc... My sequencer(s) from the 80s did this simple stuff. My Atari sequencer did this stuff and they all worked about the same... You highlight the section(s) you want change with the mouse and then you select the desired function from a pull down menu(or shortcut key)and Voila
Like ED ,if I have to keep glueing items I think I'm going to lose my mind...
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07-21-2012, 02:24 PM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 1,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rd
I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).
I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.
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A whole long midi file for a track???? NO...
Items are the way.
If you want a long track glue that fucker together.
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07-21-2012, 04:56 PM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Terra incognita
Posts: 7,670
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PooFox brought out a very good point in post #84. There are so many ideas listed under something or something else which they are not for everybody, it's hard to get something productive going when we get stuck already on terms which are used.
I for one don't even know which camp I belong to, probably neither, lol. Well, from Veto's pictures I can tell that pic 3 is definitely what I would call track based MIDI because that is what I have in my hw sequencers (sans the piano roll). And in them it really does make much more sense than separate items that you would never see as such anyway.
Yet, even in those machines I can record linear or loops, edit, copy and delete parts, shift stuff around etc. Two big differences are that I cannot see any separate items but whole tracks as event lists AND...this is what some here also want, I can edit any MIDI parameter within a user defined area or the whole track at once. More, not only within one track, but within all of them if necessary.
The sequencer parameter box like Gofer showed earlier, logical editor, any simple parameter/action box would work to the same end here. But to get it all visible and editable in, say, piano roll all at once. And this among multiple tracks, not just one. No small feat.
Yet, we can already see multiple items in there, not just edit all the selected ones at once nor exactly all the selected parameters we'd like, right? I would imagine that is the point from where to move onwards, regardless of how the editing base would be called. I'm rambling, sorry.
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07-21-2012, 05:21 PM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Not really, and not huffy. The "not understanding" part was more about people implying or suggesting that they'd have to change workflow or that they'd lose something even though ED, Ivan and I repeatedly told them otherwise,
So... you misunderstand what was not being understood.
Everybody "understands" multi-clip editing.
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With all due respect, you've made this point so abundantly clear that I would have to deliberately ignore all your posts to miss it.
MY point was that the misunderstanding comes from the implications of the term (not the people reacting to it) "track-based editing." Did you happen to read any of my posts? Wasn't trying to insult you, and maybe "huffy" is not the right word, but you're still here repeating your same arguments after "bowing out" and "conceding," with just a touch of frustration... Just trying to help you out really.
And since "everybody understands multi-clip editing," why not call it that instead of something that will not cease to create confusion?! If it is quite obvious to you that "track-based editing" and "item-based editing" are not mutually exclusive, it doesn't mean the implication is not there.
This whole thing reminds me of fights I had with my German ex-girlfriend. We'd argue the same point with different terms for hours until we finally realized we were in agreement from the start!
But I feel ya, Lawrence, having to explain the same point over and over for people who won't bother to read it anyway...well it makes you just wanna roll your eyes and give up.
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07-21-2012, 05:43 PM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Two questions:
1. Should the title of this thread more accurately be: "Why can only one midi item be edited at once?"
2. Why is this thread in the Nitpicks forum? Did it get moved from elsewhere? Judging from the interest (not just from this thread, but the history of the forum), I think this is more than a nitpick. (ok, that's three questions. )
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07-21-2012, 06:16 PM
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#101
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Personally I don't have a problem with the current item based situation other than it's nearly impossible to edit more than one track at a time. I don't use loops, I simply add empty midi items for the whole arrangement because I record all my midi from front to back. So at the very least I can edit a whole track.
However, with the ME being item based it totally messes up everything else. The Contents in the menu is almost unusable, or at the very least very difficult. The Filter is almost a joke, but lets just call it a mess.
By having track based ME editing (or multi item if you wish) it opens the door for so much more at no cost for individual items. Here are a few older threads dealing with it that at least give a glimpse at how it can be improved.
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=31
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=57
Sonar's way of handling this is great and I will gladly show some screen shots of how Sonar does all this if anyone wants.
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07-21-2012, 06:29 PM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Another little note, I read schwa's post about how hard it would be to make the change from item based to track based. I also very much appreciate how you can load any version of Reaper and it's compatible no matter whether it older or newer.
But the time comes when important changes need to be made and just bight the bullet, move on.
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07-21-2012, 08:21 PM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faun2500
A whole long midi file for a track???? NO...
Items are the way.
If you want a long track glue that fucker together.
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07-21-2012, 08:24 PM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
And since "everybody understands multi-clip editing," why not call it that instead of something that will not cease to create confusion?!
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The name is (or should be) irrelevant for anyone actually reading the discussion. It's just a nickname. Obviously (see the post above this one ), not everyone actually reads the discussion.
Anyway... I actually am bowing out this time. Promise. Thanks Poo. If I got "huffy" apologies.
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07-21-2012, 08:37 PM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,923
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hey but while we wait for the big changes can we at least get proper cc chasing. please!
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07-22-2012, 12:27 AM
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#106
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
Another little note, I read schwa's post about how hard it would be to make the change from item based to track based.
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Ok where is this? Granted I am no programmer, but from where I sit, it doesn't seem too great a thing to make the leap from being able to see multiple items in one editor, to actually being able to edit them.
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07-22-2012, 06:42 AM
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#107
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
Ok where is this? Granted I am no programmer, but from where I sit, it doesn't seem too great a thing to make the leap from being able to see multiple items in one editor, to actually being able to edit them.
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Hey Poo, It's somewhere in the Pre-Release section back when they were working on midi stuff.
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07-22-2012, 09:12 AM
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#108
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,372
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MENUES:
CTRL + CLICK in the contents menu selects multiple items for editing
FILTER EVENTS:
ENABLE EDITING (the "e" inside the box) enables editing of selected tracks(s)
It's already there...!
minor irritation: it's called a MIDI item but the window calls it a "MIDI take".
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07-22-2012, 09:15 AM
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#109
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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that doesn't seem to do it here. You cannot apply quantize to more than one item at the same time, for instance.
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07-22-2012, 09:18 AM
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#110
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krahosk
MENUES:
CTRL + CLICK in the contents menu selects multiple items for editing
FILTER EVENTS:
ENABLE EDITING (the "e" inside the box) enables editing of selected tracks(s)
It's already there...!
minor irritation: it's called a MIDI item but the window calls it a "MIDI take".
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I cannot get that screen here. Nor can I get the "e" to show up.
What is the secret, please?
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07-22-2012, 09:22 AM
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#111
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: A metropolitan bubble
Posts: 1,126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
that doesn't seem to do it here. You cannot apply quantize to more than one item at the same time, for instance.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW
I cannot get that screen here. Nor can I get the "e" to show up.
What is the secret, please?
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Lols. He's pulling your chain guys.
Just shows how easy it could be though.
__________________
"All the violence done to words is so vile that one can hardly bear to hear them any longer." - Adorno and Horkheimer
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07-22-2012, 09:27 AM
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#112
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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yeah and it was SUPER funny too!
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07-22-2012, 09:32 AM
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#113
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andysarchus
Lols. He's pulling your chain guys.
Just shows how easy it could be though.
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Wait, are you saying that not everything on the internet is true?
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07-22-2012, 09:36 AM
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#114
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
yeah and it was SUPER funny too!
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I should have seen that you're weren't in a funny mood on your avatar... sorry.
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07-22-2012, 10:33 AM
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#115
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Actually with a Track based ME the Filter can be made quite small as can be seen on the right of the pict below. I also think the Tracks Pane should be separate from the Filter. Maybe add an "E" button?
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07-22-2012, 10:55 AM
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#116
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posts: 1,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
Actually with a Track based ME the Filter can be made quite small as can be seen on the right of the pict below. I also think the Tracks Pane should be separate from the Filter. Maybe add an "E" button?
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That's one approach, but I think it might go too far for some people. Seems like a reasonable compromise would be to allow the simultaneous editing of multiple midi items for those who want it.
We can already do SOME things to multiple items at once - namely, change item properties. I just want to be able to manipulate the contents of multiple items in the ME at once.
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07-22-2012, 11:30 AM
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#117
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Been reading quietly and observing the developments here and elsewhere.
Off to hospital for ANOTHER 3 day stint and this time I am taking a laptop and assorted reaper tutorial stuff.
I will try and bang out the definitive explanation of the pluses of track based midi editing coupled with a proper arranger page.
It may not make any difference on here but it will at least get MY head around exactly what I DO miss in Reapers MIDI composition tools right now.
I wish I knew how to do a screen capture video of me doing what I do but as far as I know there isnt really way to do this on an Amiga that would create a windows-readable video file.
Maybe I can use Paint to draw some piccies.....
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07-22-2012, 03:19 PM
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#118
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Informational Only:
Freely exchanging data between items on the timeline.
Here's the 'switch', a visual one to see where the clip ends are in the ME>
It's basically a view filter.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by Lawrence; 07-22-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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07-22-2012, 03:26 PM
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#119
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinW
That's one approach, but I think it might go too far for some people. Seems like a reasonable compromise would be to allow the simultaneous editing of multiple midi items for those who want it.
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Thanks Kevin, I guess I'm the one that's a little confused. The way I understand it is that "Track based editing" and "simultaneous editing of multiple midi items" are one in the same. Either way all that needs to be shown in the filter or tracks Pane are the Tracks, right? You can edit or add too each item just as it is now, without diminishing any advantages that go along with the single items just as it is now.
Heh heh, either I'm not getting it (which could be the case with this old fart brain of mine), or this concept is harder for some folks to grasp than I think it is.
At any rate, I do believe that getting Reaper's ME into Track based editing (or multiple item editing if you wish) is the key to dealing with so many of the other ME issues, CC editing, better focusing when the ME is opened, working with multiple tracks, copying & pasting, etc. etc..
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07-22-2012, 04:00 PM
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#120
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
yeah and it was SUPER funny too!
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