Latency

[Burnsjethro]

Help with latency please.
When I record instruments the tracks seem to be in alignment with each other.
But I notice a bit of delay when I sing along with my own voice.

I have the Asio Focusrite installed. The buffer was set at 126 and the sample rate 41.1 (although the boxes were not ticked (checked). I ticked them and tried different buffer sizes. I did not see any difference.

Not very scientific but I thought this method might help me a bit.
I recorded me clapping along with the click track.

I loaded a second track and then started clapping again. I then measured the difference. The second track was slightly ahead of the first one.
The values with the user time ruler unit are 1497 for the first track and 1498 for the second one (I may have got this wrong).
In seconds that is 1.986 and 1.989
Samples 87571 and 87704

When I got into preferences and recording I am confronted with
output manual offset 0.00 ms + 0 samples
input manual offset 0.00 ms + 0 samples

Can anyone tell me where I enter my values and in what form please?

You never know, it might make a difference. And how much latency is generally acceptable?

Anton

[Philbo King]

What does Reaper tell you for latency (at the top right of the screen)?

Are you saying the difference is 1.989 - 1.986 = 0.003 Seconds?

Acceptable latency is 10 mSec or less, which is equivalent to playing along with someone 9 feet away.

[Burnsjethro]

Thanks for answering Philbo
Do you mean where it says selection?


I checked again and the values with the user time ruler unit are

Selection: 44.2.83 44.2.95 0.0.12

When I right click on the transport bar and choose
"seconds" this is Selection: 86.915 86.976 0.062

For samples that is Selection: 3832940 3835662 27722

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

If you meant the values right at that top.

That is 72 GB
44.1 khz
24 bit wave2/2 ch
128 spls
9.0/9.0 ms


Does the 9.0 ms mean that is my latency?
what do the other values refer to, spls for example?

Anton

[Stella645]

Are you direct monitoring your voice or hearing it through Reaper?

128spls is the buffer setting of your interface.
9/9 is the latency.....So 18ms round trip which is what you will be hearing if monitoring through Reaper.

Note that recordings not falling in time is not specifically latency as all reported latency should be corrected by Reaper.
Make sure to test in a new project with no plugins.

[Burnsjethro]

Thanks Stella. I am overdubbing with a pair of earphones plugged into my focusrite interface (which is the very first version).

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

By the way Stella, what do you mean by 18 ms round trip? My latency is 18 ms. That sounds a lot if 10 ms is regarded as acceptable.

I am recording with no plugins.

Can I use the output/input manual offset component to correct this if so how do I use it:


When I got into preferences and recording I am confronted with
output manual offset 0.00 ms + 0 samples
input manual offset 0.00 ms + 0 samples

Can anyone tell me where I enter my values and in what form please?

You never know, it might make a difference. And how much latency is generally acceptable?

[Burnsjethro]

As an experiment, I went to

input manual offset 0.00 ms + 0 samples

And changed it to 18.00 ms + 0 samples to factor in your 18 ms round trip stella.

I might well be imagining this but it does seem to have improved my latency no end when I harmonise with the lead vocal. Although nothing has changed at the top right it still says 9.0/9.0 ms !!!

Anton

[Stella645]

You're getting a little ahead of yourself with this.

If you do need to correct for record misalignment then there is a loopback test to measure it properly. But first let's establish if this is even the problem.

Latency of your interface that is reported to Reaper (the figures shown there) is or should be corrected by Reaper when you record. But iof you record with Reaper monitoring on you hear the latency on your live vocal and this may make you sing out of time trying to compensate.

Direct monitoring is a feature of your interface that lets you monitor your vocal (or other input) with zero latency. If you use this then it doesn't matter how high your latency is.

So are you using direct monitoring or Reaper monitoring?

[Burnsjethro]

Well I was champing at the bit, I suppose.

I don't think I record with the monitoring on if you mean the tiny button in between the "in" button and the phase normal button. It says Record monitoring off.

As I say my earphones are plugged into my focusrite interface which is plugged into my computer. Excuse my ignorance once more but how would I monitor through Reaper?

I have recorded this harmony part several times and each time I have had to nudge it a bit to synchronise with the lead voice.
When I champed at the bit, so to speak, the two were aligned? Or so I imagined. Probably not perfectly but better than before.

Anton

[Stella645]

Well the monitor button in Reaper is how you monitor through Reaper so assuming you hear yourself in the headphones and monitor is off then you must be direct monitoring.
Isn't there a button or knob on your interface labelled direct monitor?

The only way to really know the correct delay is to run a cable from your interface out back to an input and play a click sound or other sharp percussive sound out from one track and record it back in to another via the loop. (Be careful...easy to create a feedback loop- turn off all monitoring)
The difference between these two tracks is the value you can set as your record offset and you should test again with the offset to make sure you went the right direction.

If the delay really is 18ms or anything like it then something is not working right in your system. As I said Reaper should be correcting the 18ms...you shouldn't need to.

Are you on a laptop by any chance?

[Burnsjethro]

Thanks Stella. For all your patience.
No not a laptop. It's desktop computer that I had upgraded to word 10 a couple of months ago, added power and everything. And I am only using it for recording.
So it is as much as 18 ms ???


Yes, there is a direct monitoring button and it is set in the middle.


I have only just noticed that under the values in the top right-hand corner (transport bar), there is a tiny box marked Monitor with a tiny button beside it. Both are grey. But if I click the tiny button it turns red. Does this mean the monitor was on all the time and if I click to turn it red it is turned off?

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

And yet when I look at my Reaper program on my other computer I don't see this monitor button under the transport bar. How did I manage to activate it on my main "music" computer?

[Stella645]

That's not monitoring but Monitor FX where you can add plugs only to the monitor chain.

[Burnsjethro]

Originally Posted by Stella645

That's not monitoring but Monitor FX where you can add plugs only to the monitor chain.

Thanks Stella.

Do you have any more suggestions. Do you think I would better off buying a better interface?

I have a first generation scarlett focusrite and bought it quite a few years ago. I used it with audacity and reduced the latency to acceptable levels by measuring the discrepancy and correcting it as I thought might work with Reaper.

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

Another funny thing, is when I turn on my computer load up Reaper the value in the right-hand corner initially says 6/6 which turns to no device. I then open a blank project (no effects or tracks) and it suddenly says 9/9.

I altered the buffer size in ASIO from 128 to 32 and when I shut down Reaper or my computer and open Reaper again the original value, 128 is back again.
Is that normal?

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

Well, I should have been busy working today but instead I have been fiddling around with Reaper.

As I said I kept trying to alter the Asio buffer size but every time I closed it down the value reverted to the original 128. Eventually instead of closing it I left it open. And I went down as far as 32 but things started to go awry so I bumped it back up to 64, whereupon the value read 6/6 in the top right-hand corner, which is a vast improvement. I recorded me singing and it seemed to synch quite well with the lead.
And the final test was to close down the computer, back on again, Reaper back on and lo and behold 6/6 and Asio still at 64.

That is a lot better than the originally 9/9, where the voices were noticeably out of synch.
I may experiment a bit with the input/output settings in the future.

Anyway, thanks for all your help and suggestions.

Anton

[Stella645]

Good that you made some improvement.

Have you updated to the latest Focusrite drivers.....I think after they released the 2nd gen they released a driver for v1 that was supposed to perform almost like the new one.

Still odd that your vocal is recording out of sync at any setting as Reaper should definitely correct for that latency....Using direct monitor I can record with 50ms of latency and my two tracks will still line up perfectly. Latency is only an issue when monitoring through the DAW .

[Burnsjethro]

I think I installed the focusrite drive about two or three months ago.
Do you have a link for the drive you are talking about?

When you use direct monitor do you have direct monitor button positioned between the two extremes, input and DAW?

What reading do you get in the top-right hand corner for your 50 ms of latency.
Is my 6/6 abnormal?

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

Still harping on about my latency.
Is my 6/6 abnormal/acceptable?

As I said I recorded a harmony part yesterday with the buffer size in Asio turned down from 128 to 64 (which changed the latency reading in the top right corner from 9/9 to 6/6)(and any special effects turned off) and that seemed to work well.

However, playing it back this morning the track was creaking a bit so I changed it back to 128 and it creaked, hissed and all sorts even more so I raised it up one more size and all the noise disappeared. The value at the top of the screen now reads 14/14.

I suppose the latency makes no difference for mixing purposes, so I can leave it at 14/14 but what about rendering?

As this is a kind of odd way of working, shifting between buffer sizes would it not be better to purchase a better interface?

If so does anyone know any interfaces that almost guarantee low latency and are not to pricey (I am just an amateur home recorder not preparing to start a recording career)?

Anton

[ivansc]

Not at all an unusual way of working. Most of us record anything we want to be able to do liv ein time with other tracks with the lowest buffer possible, but then mix, etc., with a MUCH larger buffer. Makes no difference to what you already have recorded & as you have noticed, it frees up a lot more cpu if you want to add more plugins, etc.

[Burnsjethro]

Thanks a lot for your reassuring words, Ivan.

Anton

[Stella645]

Originally Posted by Burnsjethro

I think I installed the focusrite drive about two or three months ago.
Do you have a link for the drive you are talking about?

When you use direct monitor do you have direct monitor button positioned between the two extremes, input and DAW?

What reading do you get in the top-right hand corner for your 50 ms of latency.
Is my 6/6 abnormal?

Anton

I don't know what interface you have so obviously can't give a direct link...you can work it out from here I hope!
https://customer.focusrite.com/downloads

My direct monitoring isn't controlled by button but doesn't a button have 2 options only?
Or do you mean a knob? (in which case turning to the extremes would mean you either don't hear your voice or you don't hear the track you're singing to so of course wouldn't work for overdubs)

My 50ms was only meant as a theoretical but at 1024 samples which I occasionally need to do in a heavy mix my latency actually reads 24/27 so I was only 1ms out.
But I can still direct monitor so I don't hear latency and could still add an overdub with good sync if necessary.

There is nothing abnormal about your latency....But as I'm beginning to feel like I've repeated too many times now, using direct monitoring, the recordings should be in sync regardless of your latency figures so that is what is abnormal here.

[Burnsjethro]

Thanks for your infinite patience, Stella. And kind words of advice. Everyone else of course.



Anton

[Burnsjethro]

Final chapter in Anton's latency problem (I hope). As it was my birthday I persuaded my wife to buy me Scarlett 214 generation two (to replace my first generation device).

Turning my buffer size down to 64 with the first generation my latency reading was 6.6 with the second generation it is 3.8, which is well within the range of acceptability, methinks.

Anton

[DrGed]

Originally Posted by Burnsjethro

Final chapter in Anton's latency problem (I hope).

Yes, but I think it is only matter of time before someone else has latency problems. (Maybe me!)

Is there a FAQ post about latency? Maybe an experienced Reaper user could write a "Newbie's Guide to Latency". There may already be one somewhere. This would be very useful as I'm sure nearly all new users encounter this problem.

P.S. In the top right of my screen is see the figures 12/12... ...Any comments?

[Burnsjethro]

Yes, well said, DrGred.
Not a bad idea if someone were to collect the most frequently asked questions into various columns. Or a post with links, for example.

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

I wrote to Focusrite (Scarlett 214) interface) about this problem and they sent a list of tweaks I could make to the computer.


I just noticed this reference to adjusting buffer sizes in Protools:
"The Pro Tools | First Playback Engine will allow you to choose between two preset buffer sizes, ‘Record’ (64 samples) and ‘Playback’ (512). Select the option that best suits your current usage and select 'OK'. "

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...-in-Pro-Tools-

So apparently it is quite normal to have to use different settings for recording and playback. Shame Reaper does not have this facility included.


Anton

[DrGed]

I must admit I did wonder if it might be possible to playback with one setting and then change when recording. However, when you record a track you're also playing back other tracks at the same time, aren't you?

[Burnsjethro]

True you are recording other tracks. But when I overdub, for example, I turn off any xfs, plugins,... and it seems to work fine. Then if the tune starts to creak and groan on playback I increase the buffer size. There is no latency when you are playing back or mixing.

Anton

[DrGed]

Thank you, Anton!

[Burnsjethro]

No need to thank me. Dr.Gred.
I am not exactly an expert in thesematters but I have viewed lots of links where they advise using this method and the post from Focusrite (the interface people) showing the facility in Pro tools for automatically switching buffer sizes according to whether you are recording or playing back (mixing) just goes to confirm this.

Anton

[Burnsjethro]

See this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cI-JFU5BNk