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10-20-2018, 12:10 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Where in my VST stack would a De-esser go?
I am working on a vocal track and want to add a De-esser to the VST stack. Correct me if I am wrong, but, it does make a difference what order the stack is in, right? (Or wrong?)
Here is my current VST stack. I have a Vox track that is being sent to an Fx track. The Fx track is where all these VSTs are located.
In this order:
1-Mono Gain Control
2-Compressor
3-EQ
4-Reverb
If these are out of order please let me know as well as where the De-esser should go.
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Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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10-20-2018, 02:59 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NC
Posts: 99
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So, I try to follow the logical path initially:
first) fix the source: de-ess, tune, handle breath and other noises, etc.
then) make adjustments to the source: EQ, compression, etc.
then) add time-based FX like reverb, delay, etc.
Edit: By source, I mean basic track.
I rarely need a gain control, but it would probably precede everything.
Within each general area described above, the sequence of events should be decided case by case to arrive at your goal.
My goal here is nothing radical, just that the track sounds good and sits where I want it in the mix.
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10-20-2018, 08:45 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark River
So, I try to follow the logical path initially:
first) fix the source: de-ess, tune, handle breath and other noises, etc.
then) make adjustments to the source: EQ, compression, etc.
then) add time-based FX like reverb, delay, etc.
Edit: By source, I mean basic track.
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So, just for clarity sake, if I have a Vox Track and an Fx track, when you say 'fix' and 'adjust' the SOURCE, by source your meaning the Vox track or the track that the actual audio is being recorded onto. Is that right?
Also, I am curious what YOU mean when you say 'Handle Breath' .....
Can you explain exactly what your doing when you are handling breath?
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Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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10-21-2018, 04:53 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NC
Posts: 99
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Yes I mean source = the track. In your case the vocal.
Handle breath noise; in other words 'deal with' excessive breathing noise by reducing the track volume during loud, unwanted breath or other noises from the track.
BTW,I would apply most processing on the vocal track directly (not use a separate FX track), with the likely exception of reverb and delay (as I may use these on other tracks).
... we all have different workflow preferences, so I have offered to you my general approach.
There are lots of videos dealing with mixing technique, Reaper or otherwise, but the Reaper site has lots of great tutorials.
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10-21-2018, 05:44 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Great! Thank You!
The only reason that I put all VST on an Fx track is that I was watching a lot of videos by Kenny Gioia and that is simply how he demonstrated do it. The way I heard him say was that by doing it that way it leaves the Vox Track in it's original form so that if for some reason I wanted to change something it would make it easier and be changing the actual file itself.
Yes, I do agree that we all have our own way of doing things and I respect them all. To this point this is just the way I have been doing it!
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Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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10-21-2018, 06:38 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,842
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Generally, i think most people would have the de-esser, eq & compression on the vocal track and just the reverb on the FX track, that way you can adjust the amount of reverb send without affecting the amount of de-essing etc. (otherwise you might as well have them all on the vox track and use the wet/dry knob on the 'verb)
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10-21-2018, 06:56 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Got It!
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Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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10-22-2018, 12:28 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
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To add a tip
- sometimes 2 de-essors works much better than 1.
If one works too hard then it can smear the sound, so it is much more natural to have 2 doing less work than one.
In this case I would put one after the gain control and the second after the EQ
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10-22-2018, 12:29 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
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To add a tip
- sometimes 2 de-essors works much better than 1.
If one works too hard then it can start to smear / distort the sound, in this case it is much more natural to have 2 doing less work than one.
In this case I would put one after the gain control and the second after the EQ
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10-22-2018, 08:36 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704
I am working on a vocal track and want to add a De-esser to the VST stack. Correct me if I am wrong, but, it does make a difference what order the stack is in, right? (Or wrong?)
Here is my current VST stack. I have a Vox track that is being sent to an Fx track. The Fx track is where all these VSTs are located.
In this order:
1-Mono Gain Control
2-Compressor
3-EQ
4-Reverb
If these are out of order please let me know as well as where the De-esser should go.
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I usually put it first. You don't want sss peaks hitting the compressor downstream.
You've mentioned troubles with reverb before...
Even if you have a unique effect vocal that has it's own unique reverb (separate from any other that would use your main vocal reverb bus), I'd still use the same SOP practice of putting that on it's own bus track. It's an absolute PITA to have to adjust a wet/dry balance followed by then having to readjust your channel level. It's an even bigger PITA to put basic eq on only the reverb if it's on the same track as the source which kind of ties one hand behind your back.
You didn't ask, but my 2c worth.
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10-22-2018, 08:54 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Got it!
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Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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10-22-2018, 09:30 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norway
Posts: 239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherT
To add a tip
- sometimes 2 de-essors works much better than 1.
If one works too hard then it can start to smear / distort the sound, in this case it is much more natural to have 2 doing less work than one.
In this case I would put one after the gain control and the second after the EQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherT
To add a tip
- sometimes 2 de-essors works much better than 1.
If one works too hard then it can start to smear / distort the sound, in this case it is much more natural to have 2 doing less work than one.
In this case I would put one after the gain control and the second after the EQ
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I see what you did there...
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10-23-2018, 08:05 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherT View Post
To add a tip
- sometimes 2 de-essors works much better than 1.
If one works too hard then it can start to smear / distort the sound, in this case it is much more natural to have 2 doing less work than one.
In this case I would put one after the gain control and the second after the EQ
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Interesting concept. Just curious, in this case would the settings for each de-essor be different or the same? If different settings, what considerations to you make with the second one that might be different than the first?
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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10-23-2018, 08:33 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,632
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That would be with the same settings. Same trick used with compression sometimes. If the deessor or compressor starts to exhibit artifacts when you make it hit too hard (dulling, blurring), you can sometimes get better results with 2. Each only cutting half as deep and thus not crossing the line into unwanted dulling. (Can't get a thick enough coat of paint in one pass without runs and drips? Do two coats of the same paint instead.)
When you use multiple automatic leveling gadgets for different purposes (like the deessor for sss control and then a compressor to help level the vocal performance regarding proximity to the mic), think about what each one is doing.
Your example of using a deessor and a comp. You want the comp to help level some peakiness in the performance for consistency. You want the deessor to get rid of hot sss sounds. In this example it usually makes the most sense to control those sss sounds first. (A comment from my experiences.) So route that unit first. Then you can level it with the compressor more easily. If you tried to do it the other way, the compressor might be triggering on a few hot sss sounds itself and not quite doing what you intended.
There could be a scenario where some of the peakiness in the performance is wilder than any of the hot sss sounds. There very well might be a scenario where you get better results the other way. Comp first to level some of the performance and then a deessor to go after the sss's. Where if you tried it the other way, you'd miss some of the sss's unless you adjusted it to cut deeper which would get into dulling the sound.
It's all fun in theory!
Sometimes you have to just experiment!
But if you can identify an element you want to control by ear, it can help to be a little analytical about it and think it through.
Back to doubling up a deessor or comp. This is basically saying that the device in question has a limited ratio range that you consider acceptable. When you want to cut further, you strap two together instead of trying to adjust just one past the point where you consider it doesn't perform as well.
Well, I hope that helps and doesn't just make it more confusing!
Last edited by serr; 10-23-2018 at 08:41 AM.
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10-23-2018, 01:48 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704
Interesting concept. Just curious, in this case would the settings for each de-essor be different or the same? If different settings, what considerations to you make with the second one that might be different than the first?
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Most of the time it is the same "s" frequency, but sometimes not.
When people sing or say certain words, the "s" can be a slightly different frequency depending on the word / phrase, and the speed of the song can make a difference.
So normally I set one de-essor to a narrow band, to get the louder
s" and the second a bit wider - or a slightly different frequency centre, and when it needs to de-ess, half of the gain reduction work has already been done by the first de-essor.
Using 2 de-essors in a chain is similar as running 2 compressors, one compressor compresses the much louder words, and the 2nd comp does the lighter overall compression duties - and therefor less compression artifacts.
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