Automation Panel - Display and Function Triggers - Page 2

airon · 10-07-2010, 07:37 AM

And we're bumping again. I'm going to place some gfx in the reference sections for better illustration.

airon · 10-16-2010, 07:03 PM

Bumped.

funkcity · 11-01-2010, 11:44 PM

Remember..
The new PT Automation features starting with PT 7x largely came from Euphonix System 5 automation.

The new Cubase and Nuendo Automation came directly from Euphonix.

As they have said now that Avid has bought Euphonix, PT will have very tight "Yukon" integration and I'm sure eventually the SAME mix automation.

So if there is something close-to-being-a-standard it will be the System 5 automation. And that is the target for any new automation enhancements.
Harrison, AMS-Neve, and Euphonix have all borrowed freely from each others designs and features as have the DAW manufacturers.

An optimized Reaper-specific control surface would be killer. Yamaha evidently never got this or Cu and Nu would have been contenders!

airon · 11-02-2010, 08:22 AM

Thanks for that background information. I hadn't known for sure about Euphonix's involvement and only heard of it via a number of corners.

I sincerely believe Reaper can be a much stronger mixing platform, if and when it gets EuCon integration and at the very least some semblance of the proposed automation workflow features.

The panel is just one of the ways this can happen, and it is a way to display and trigger behaviours that anybody would then be able to map to any control source.

I've just read that the Artist series of Avid/Euphonix will be showcased on Windows 7 at the AES 2010 in San Francisco, starting in two days. This should provide further motivation to implement a control surface protocol that is way ahead of any midi-based solution. I'm using the Presonus Faderport at home which features 1024 steps just like any previous Digidesign control surface, but of course it is just one fader and a limited number of buttons that control a very limited number of things.

The configurability of Reaper does not yet extend to control surfaces as much as I'd like. A more flexible approach of assigning control resources and switching layers of context between multiple functions is required to utilize the available inexpensive control hardware available. So far, Reaper has failed to that, and the extension authors have had to custom code their way towards that goal.[/ramble]

Funkcity, if you have any further ideas to improve this design, I'll be glad to try anything out. Of course the source files to this design are available as well. They are Xara files, am easy to use vector drawing program. I have yet to warm up to Inkscape.

funkcity · 11-05-2010, 02:11 AM

ProTools 9 is now here and they've opened up the hardware options.
This is a MAJOR shift. Yukon now replaces HUI (thank god) when using the Artist Series or Pro Series mixing controllers...This is a very big deal!
People worldwide are downloading and paying a shitpot of money for this software as we speak!

Remember Nuendo 5 is almost exactly like Euphonix mix software....good to study.

Reaper can license and SHOULD license Yukon protocol just as Apple(Logic) and Yamaha/Steinberg Nuendo have.

The battle cry has sounded for Yamaha to get off their dead asses and show what they can really do...or they will lose it. Most of these technologies they have invented!

Reaper at-its price-point and value-point will continue.
And that is exactly how Digidesign started. They were MUCH cheaper than the competition. However Reaper is a very fine piece of ever-improving software and the possibilities are limitless!
Partmering up with a good surface control company would be marvelous.

airon · 11-05-2010, 02:23 AM

Yeah, I hope so too. EuCon is the future for high-res control surfaces.

Well, one thing at a time. Protools 9 doesn't allow you to reconfigure the keyboard yet, so you need to use the mouse to use HD automation features. I guess they'll get around to it at some point, but I don't see any workflow improvements in Protools 9 just yet. Reaper still has the drop on them for pure workflow speed and flexibility. I'd rather not edit sound effects in Protools any longer. Dialog, well, that's another story but that can change real soon.

Just got an idea for the automation panel. A layout idea.

What if the automation panel window wasn't just horizontal, but could be reconfigured to be displayed vertically just by resizing the window. The panel window would snap to a vertical configuration. I'll draw a mockup and post it in this post.

And here it is. The elements would change around a little bit. The elements that need to be together to work are the Preview/Capture and "Write to" sections.

I am presuming that users would place this panel on the right hand side of the screen. Here are two variations.

.........

airon · 01-04-2011, 07:17 PM

Bumped.

airon · 01-05-2011, 05:52 PM

And another bump.

It'm tossing around ideas for workflows. If any real-time-automation-using mixer finds this thread, perhaps they'd like to chip in with some ideas on how to get a good workflow going with the tools presented in this automation panel.

We should establish good default switches and optimize the layout so the user gets the most immediate visual feedback, as well as having all the necessary functions for their workflow at hand.

Joystick · 01-12-2011, 05:17 AM

Very nice designing!

Already voted for it, good suggestion!

airon · 01-25-2011, 05:43 PM

Might as well give this it's bi-weekly bump.

What advanced automation features would you like to see ? This is after all just a control panel for all kinds of underlying functionality.

If you're not seeing something you need in your workflow, please post it here.

airon · 03-06-2011, 04:07 PM

Guess it is time to bump this sweet, sweet request. Post any ideas you have for this kind of thing.

musicbynumbers · 03-06-2011, 04:44 PM

Just the other day a new user asked for a way to delete all envelopes

that's why this is needed! I think we could do it with out too much trouble, most of the actions are there just need a nice panel for them

Joystick · 03-07-2011, 05:14 AM

I'm pretty sure someone is working on this out there, well it would be very nice for the post pro people...

timlloyd · 03-07-2011, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airon

Post any ideas you have for this kind of thing.

I wish I had some ideas, but you seem to have covered everything very thoroughly!

I want it!

airon · 03-07-2011, 07:32 PM

One thing I haven't put in there yet is a separate recording pass history, meaning a storage of recorded automation after transport is stopped.

-edit-
To clarify, a pass of automation is all envelope data written from the IN timecode, i.e. where transport began or the start of the time selection, and the OUT timecode, where transport was stopped or the end of the time selection. All affected parameters would be included, and ONLY those.

The use for it is to try out several scenarios, between which you can then switch at will. This pass history can then be saved along with the session and recalled. One might need to keep the same IN and OUT timecodes for the passes in order for them to be saved as takes of automation.

So with the automation panel and its associated functionality serving as a basis, an automation take/pass management would be quite welcome.

It would look a bit like this if we use the timecode IN(and optionally OUT) positions as attribute to keep takes together:

Timecode IN - Timecode OUT
pass 1 - pass name, entered in a management area - list of affected parameters groups
pass 2 - pass name, entered in a management area - list of affected parameters groups
pass 3 - pass name, entered in a management area - list of affected parameters groups

Affected parameter groups would be Vol,Pan,Sndlev,Sndpan,PluginName for example. So one entry may look like this:

02:04:02:10 - 02:04:20:01 (or - [02:04:20:01] if one of the passes had a different OUT timecode)
01 - Dia thin, more rev - Vol,Pan,Sndlev,ReaEQ
02 - Dia close, no rev - Vol,Pan,Sndlev,ReaEQ

Reaper would need to display all the locations where passes area available, which could happen in the project bay in a tab called "Env Takes" or "Auto Pass".

Each location would be a folder, and each pass available inside. That would use current functionality and be user friendly.

You select a pass and click an Apply button, or click on it with a modifier to apply the pass.

A single click only selects it for management like

deletion
renaming
change of length
copy(paste in to another location for example)
capture(captures the initial state of the pass in to the Capture buffer for use in the session)
replace(replaces pass with data in clipboard) filling up to the end or truncating to fit the length of the target pass) -edited-this was one entry not two in the list-
drag'n'drop to another bay

Since this is just envelope data, Reaper could apply it IF the target envelope exists, so if the volume parameter is not active it would ignore the volume data if it is pasted in another session, as it would ignore any envelope data of plugin parameters that didn't exist in the track it is being applied to or be present in the correct order for that matter. Reaper would highlight incompatible data in red when the user tries to make use of it.

I'm not sure how passes spanning multiple tracks, which is quite often the case, would be displayed in the pass list. Perhaps the affected tracks could be highlighted if a pass is selected.

airon · 03-27-2011, 10:17 AM

I'm trying to design some buttons use icon images. They are inspired by how Protools draws them, but they can certainly be improved.

Ok, here's a default configuration with the Read/Trim mode chosen for the currently selected tracks, and nothing else being active.

This is only the central bit of the automation panel.

And here's a configuration where some stuff is going on. The Latch mode is active(or was chosen for selected tracks previously), the WRITE TO buffer contains data, and whenever the WRITE TO buttons will be pressed, the data in the WRITE TO buffer will be written to the moment the user first punched in(touched something) and the END of the session.

Also, the WRITE TO buffer is unprotected. That means when playback is started again, the WRITE TO buffer will be cleared.

airon · 03-27-2011, 01:38 PM

Cleaned the second shot up a bit.

Settings:

Latch mode has been chosen for the selected tracks.

WRITE TO buffer has data

Write to selection is on

Write to end is on

Write on stop is in, which means as soon as you STOP the transport, a WRITE TO action is executed, as if you clicked on the big red WRITE TO button, which will respect all the blue options and write the data in the WRITE TO buffer to the time selection and end of the session.

wags3d · 06-11-2011, 02:20 PM

Did any of this make it into V4?

timlloyd · 06-11-2011, 04:50 PM

not yet ...

I'm remaining hopeful

airon · 06-11-2011, 06:47 PM

This whole automation issue and all the stuff that comes with it is supposed to be tackled some time in the v4 cycle, according to Cockos.

So if you have anything to add to the automation functionality, please do so at least here.

airon · 06-12-2011, 01:39 PM

I'm posting the same as I did in the thread over in the General Forum.

It's time to start discussing this whole thing.

Time to define workflows for both music and post production applications. Let's see if we can refine the Better Automation request to fit as many workflows as possible.

The discussion thread is here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=63689

To start off, I'd like to collect scenarios, jobs to do while mixing a project. I'll make a start, and encourage you to write down your own scenario, however complex or simple it may be.

. A line of dialogue .
A spoken line of dialogue usually needs to be understandable and believable. For that purpose I use denoisers and multiband gates for getting rid of background noise, equalizers for shaping the sound, compressor for control if necessary and reverb sends for perspective.

Thus, in order to shape a line of dialogue that is located on one track I will need to control various parameters almost on a line by line and character by character basis. This is where I need the following :
A method to find the settings I need to apply to an area of the dialogue without changing the underlying automation. Sometimes I'll only want to overwrite the send level, or tweak the gain of two bands of EQ for example.

A way to compare what is already on the automation lanes with what I've setup. An A/B comparison so to speak. I'd even like to compare multiple new settings, for example, different EQ/compression/reverb-send setups.

And finally, I need to write the settings I like to the automation lanes, and as quickly as possible.

Now believe it or not, the Preview mode covers almost all of this, and the different "WRITE TO" option switches cover the commiting of settings to the automation lanes.

The automation panel so far:

. How I accomplish my scenario .

I setup a loop around the dialogue line I wish to mix and start playback.

I activate the Preview mode and Latch mode.
Now anything I twist and turn will no longer read from the autoamtion lanes, but be controlled by me. At the same time, no automation will be written for those parameters. It's ideal to try out new ideas without spoiling any previous work.

I start finding my ideal settings for the line of dialogue. They stay at those settings when we loop around. As soon as I've touched one parameters, the "Punch ->" button below the Preview button lights up to indicate that the Preview buffer now has at least one parameter with a value inside.

I've found my ideal settings and would now like to commit them to the selected area around the line of dialogue.

Either while transport is still running, or stopped, I hit the "Punch Preview to writing buffer" button. In the automation panel mockup, it's the yellow button below the Preview button. The red "WRITE TO" buttons would now light up. I've copied everything that was inside the Preview buffer to the "WRITE TO" buffer, which is necessary for me to write to the automation lanes.

I hit the "->" button to the left of the blue "Selection" option button. That will write everything in the "WRITE TO" buffer in the automation lanes. Then I turn off the Preview mode by ALT+clicking on the Preview button once more. That clears the preview buffer. Alternately I may want to write those settings somewhere else in the session(on the same track), so I'd just click on the Preview button, which merely bypasses the Preview mode. A click brings it back.

I illustrate once more, the sequence of events is:
Make a loop/time selection around the dialogue line and hit play.

Activate Preview and Latch

Find the settings you want

Hit the yellow "Punch ->" button, punching the contents of the Preview buffer in to the WRITE TO buffer.

Press the red "->" button next to the blue "Selection" option button. This writes the settings to the automation lanes.

Clear or bypass Preview mode.

If you like, you could simply create a macro that does the Punch, Write To command and Preview-clear in one button press.

So that's my main scenario.

airon · 06-13-2011, 11:10 AM

Design update:

Those little yellow buttons with the top-one labled "Write Punch" combines the "Punch and respective "Write To" functions. It only saves one click, so it may not make it in to the final panel.

The buttons on the left labeled "1" to "8" are instant snapshots to and from the Preview buffer. Click to recall, CTRL+click to save Preview buffer to chosen snapshot button. It's an idea and maybe eight aren't enough, but it's a start.

The camera symbol button saves a snapshot to the list.

airon · 08-12-2011, 08:41 PM

Update. Added signal flow diagrams to illustrate exactly what's going on with Preview mode and without.

New images below.

airon · 08-13-2011, 04:09 AM

Next revision of the automation signal flow coming today.

airon · 08-13-2011, 10:14 AM

Here is the next iteration. I have covered the important stuff much better this time. Step by step, this will show you what happens. I'm still working on some stuff.

First, Reaper, the way it works now (4.02pre5):

Second, Preview off and no controller has yet been touched. Thus, the automation is read from the envelope lane.

Third, Preview off and the controller has been touched. Now the envelope lane is no longer being read from, but is being written to instead with the controller value.

Fourth, Preview is ON and the controller has been touched. Now the envelope lane is longer being read from, nothing is being written to the envelope lane, but the DSP mixer is being fed the controller value.

Preview mode thus allows you to test values until you're ready to commit it to the envelope lane.

airon · 10-15-2011, 06:15 PM

Added some detail on how the automation mode, Suspend Read/Write, Show and Arm/Diarm switches function.

Go to post no.10 to check it out.

wags3d · 10-16-2011, 10:43 AM

Airon, I appreciate all the work and thought you have put into this automation design. I used to mix music using GML automation as well as Flying Faders and these are some of the same concepts. Also, I know they have implemented something like this in Nuendo. I voted for your feature request a while a ago. I was mixing a song in Reaper and was really needing to use some of your functionality.

Two things about the current Reaper automation that really bug me is 1)the fact that when you activate any of the modes except for Read the fader jumps up to zero. I want the fader to stay where I have put it and then make my moves from there. 2) I also want the fader to be in sync with the envelope that I am currently controlling unless I go into a relative or trim mode.

Has there been any progress on getting any of this implemented into Reaper? Any time frame to get this in?

nofish · 10-16-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wags3d

Two things about the current Reaper automation that really bug me is 1)the fact that when you activate any of the modes except for Read the fader jumps up to zero. I want the fader to stay where I have put it and then make my moves from there.

I think this can be changed already:
Preferences -> Envelopes

When adding volume/pan envelope, apply trim to envelope and reset trim:
set it to 'never'

wags3d · 10-16-2011, 02:34 PM

Great. Thanks for the tip nofish. I will give it a try.

airon · 10-23-2011, 01:53 PM

Working on some graphical documentation here. This is a Work In Progress, and I do appreciate any feedback I get on it.

airon · 11-08-2011, 12:57 PM

Hey, we're up to 100 votes for this little automation panel.

aMUSEd · 11-08-2011, 02:14 PM

Personally I'd rather automation was a whole lot simpler - not added complexity. If there is an overhaul I'd like for Reaper to have automation for plugin instruments as streamlined as it is in Studio One, Podium and Energy XT where it just records whatever knobs you tweak once record is pressed - no worrying about selecting the right mode. Maybe we need a simple option and a power user option for whatever this complicated stuff is meant for?

I would also like for the bezier curves to be proper beziers with handles like in graphics apps as you get better control over slope and the type of curve.

gofer · 11-19-2011, 10:24 AM

104 people around here are much smarter than me...

Myself, I just can't seem to really get what this panel actually does, and I did seriously try several times now since Airon came up with it, believe me. I feel so dumb

.

airon · 11-19-2011, 02:32 PM

It took me several hard thinking hours to comprehend what the "Preview" mode did in Protools, and I know several gentlefolk who had the same experience, all of them experienced engineers.

So no need to feel bad

.

Think of that panel as a control centre for all the global automation needs. The rest is trying it out and learning how to make use of it for your own projects.

Nick Morris · 11-19-2011, 03:19 PM

I think that is the problem with this feature. Not enough have used this type of feature, so they do not know what they are missing. Now, how to get them try this out and see the difference...

TonE · 11-24-2011, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airon

What if we didn't have to do this in real time ? Well, that's actually very easy. We use one of the "WRITE to" buttons.

What is the difference between a "WRITE to" button in your long tales and following already available actions in Reaper:

Automation: Write current values from cursor to end of project 41162
Automation: Write current values from cursor to start of project 41161
Automation: Write current values to time selection 41160

This should explain, how you can apply any snapshot from sws extension, to any time selection.

airon · 11-25-2011, 01:22 AM

Those actions only write the current state of all armed paramaters, across all tracks, in any of the automation writing modes to the envelope lanes.

In other words they're the minimum, dumb steam roller writing actions, that we didn't even have before I moaned at Justin for quite some time. They're a start, but they're not as powerful as the WRITE TO commands in the panel.

For one, the WRITE TO commands can punch in only specific parameters in conjunction with the Preview mode.

When a track is in Preview mode, the WRITE TO buffer is not filled from whatever values is on the tracks, and thus every WRITE TO command (or Punch & WriteTo command) will not write to ALL armed parameters, but only those you've placed in to the Preview buffer either by touching them, or pushing them in manually with UI methods we have yet to figure out entirely.

If used outside of Preview mode, the WRITE TO commands are the same as those commands we have, though some WRITE TO commands have no equivalents yet, such as Write Back To Punch and Write To Next Envelope Point.

And you don't have any automatic behaviour, match out, autojoin and all the read and write suspend options. All this stuff can save massive amounts of time and Reaper has almost none of them yet.

TonE · 11-25-2011, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airon

When a track is in Preview mode, the WRITE TO buffer is not filled from whatever values is on the tracks, and thus every WRITE TO command (or Punch & WriteTo command) will not write to ALL armed parameters, but only those you've placed in to the Preview buffer either by touching them, or pushing them in manually with UI methods we have yet to figure out entirely.

So we need a new action:
Automation: Write current values "of envelopes in some selection/group" from cursor to end of project

The difference is the envelope filtering which is applied inbetween. You call this filtering "Preview mode". I would call it "filtered envelopes" or "subset of all envelopes", or "to be optimized parameters". Why not just taking a snapshot before this optimization ~ preview mode, looping the region of interest, adjusting your "to be optimized parameters" as often as you want, always taking new snapshots, comparing among those, then deciding for one? What is the problem with this approach?

airon · 11-25-2011, 05:08 AM

For one, in order to change the values, you'd need to be in writing automation mode, and then you'd be overwriting the existing automation all the time.

If you'd like to take snapsohts of what you've touched during Preview mode, you can do that too, with the Snapshot button. A snapshot of those touched parameters only can then be made and recalled for comparison.

To compare previously existing values on the envelope lanes and those that you now have placed in your preview buffer through touching the controls of those parameters, you suspend or bypass Preview mode, then unsuspend/unbypass it to listen to your new values. That's how you could compare old and new settings without ever overwriting existing values.

Also keep in mind that in preview mode, only the touched parameters are no longer being controlled by the existing automation data on the envelope lanes. All the other parameters still are, which makes the Preview mode approach superior to just read-suspending all plugin automation as well.

This stuff is quite carefully thought out already.

TonE · 11-25-2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airon

Also keep in mind that in preview mode, only the touched parameters are no longer being controlled by the existing automation data on the envelope lanes. All the other parameters still are, which makes the Preview mode approach superior to just read-suspending all plugin automation as well.

So we need not only for each track an automation-mode setting, but also for each parameter?