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Old 10-15-2018, 06:33 PM   #1
jstanard
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Default LATENCY ISSUE USING ELEC DRUM KIT TO RECORD IN REAPER

I am trying to use an electronic drum kit to record in Reaper. I want to record my drummer friends’ parts in MIDI so that I can swap out drum samples later if I want to. The problem is that no matter what I have tried I cannot get rid of the latency that’s occurring in terms of a delay he is hearing while recording, playing along with other recorded tracks. I’m hoping someone here can offer some advice as to how to solve this so I can record MIDI drum parts.

Here’s what I am using:
- The device the drummer is using is a Yamaha DTX900
- In Reaper I am using ezDrummer2 as a virtual instrument
- The interface is a Roland Octa-Capture

My system is a dedicated Windows 10 desktop with 16Gb RAM and an Intel i7-4770 3.40GHz CPU. Other than this one issue this system has been rock solid for recording in Reaper.

In my attempts to troubleshoot this the only thing I could come up with is the possibility that ezDrummer2 does not provide enough tools for me to tweak the latency for the DTZ900.

Any advice on how to solve this will be appreciated!
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:43 PM   #2
JayJSE2
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I've found the two things that affect latency for midi (specifically drums) are FX with PDC (on the track or anywhere in the project) and the buffer (or "block") size you're using. On my system 256 works well (128 or lower would be better, but my system can't quite handle it).
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:26 PM   #3
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Default Question on one thing

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Originally Posted by JayJSE2 View Post
I've found the two things that affect latency for midi (specifically drums) are FX with PDC (on the track or anywhere in the project) and the buffer (or "block") size you're using. On my system 256 works well (128 or lower would be better, but my system can't quite handle it).
Thanks for this info. What is "PDC"? Forgive my ignorance!
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:01 PM   #4
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You easily get latency issues when using software for "live playing", which means the sound generation is done by software.

You should not get latency whey using the internal sound of the e-drum kit for monitoring your playing and in Reaper record the Midi data together with e.g. a Microphone for other artists' performance, while (optionally) playing back some pre-recorded track in Reaper.

For low latency life performance you need very decent equipment including a PC with rather good performance (you have such) and and audio D/A box specified for low latency (the internal "sound card" or a PC is not usable, no idea about the Roland) and the sound card parameters and OS (Windows) tweaked for good realtime performance.

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Last edited by mschnell; 10-16-2018 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:53 AM   #5
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You and I have the same basic computer & I use both EZD2 and SD3 for "live" drumming recording with no issues.
The one big difference is that I use an RME pci interface, which has excellent ASIO drivers.

So.

1. are you using the Octocapture`s own ASIO drivers?

2. DO you have the ASIO buffer set as low as you can get away with before it starts causing crackles and pops?

My RME will drop down to 32 buffer, which gives me a round trip latency of about 2 ms! As I add more & more instruments I do have to increase the buffer to 64, but that still allows anyone to play along/record with no real issues.

FWIW, I beta test for ToonTrack & can assure you there isn`t much you could do within any plugin, let alone EZD, to affect latency.
It all happens in your driver settings & the PDC.
Focus on getting your ASIO settings right & I think things will work out for you.
Never used a Yamaha e-drum kit, I have an old Roland TD8.

EDIT: Oh dear. After a quick whiz round the net it looks like Win10 and your octo capture don`t like each other much. Could have a lot to do with the latency issue. Are you actually on Win10?
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Last edited by ivansc; 10-16-2018 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Did a little research
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:27 AM   #6
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Default Re monitoring for playing and recording in Reaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
You easily get latency issues when using software for "live playing", which means the sound generation is done by software.

You should not get latency whey using the internal sound of the e-drum kit for monitoring your playing and in Reaper record the Midi data together with e.g. a Microphone for other artists' performance, while (optionally) playing back some pre-recorded track in Reaper.

For low latency life performance you need very decent equipment including a PC with rather good performance (you have such) and and audio D/A box specified for low latency (the internal "sound card" or a PC is not usable, no idea about the Roland) and the sound card parameters and OS (Windows) tweaked for good realtime performance.

-Michael
Michael,

Thanks. My PC has good performance and the audio D/A (Octa Capture) allows me to select as low as 32 (although I cannot always use that). For analog recording and also recording my midi keys (using a virtual instrument on the track) I am not getting this latency issue. I am only getting it when using ezDrummer2 and the Yamaha DTX900.

QUESTION REGARDING MONITORING WHILE RECORDING: Should I be monitoring out of the audio D/A (Octa Capture) or via Reaper? Is one or the other of these approaches likely to provide less latency?
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:37 AM   #7
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Default Responding to your questions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
You and I have the same basic computer & I use both EZD2 and SD3 for "live" drumming recording with no issues.
The one big difference is that I use an RME pci interface, which has excellent ASIO drivers.

So.

1. are you using the Octocapture`s own ASIO drivers?

2. DO you have the ASIO buffer set as low as you can get away with before it starts causing crackles and pops?

My RME will drop down to 32 buffer, which gives me a round trip latency of about 2 ms! As I add more & more instruments I do have to increase the buffer to 64, but that still allows anyone to play along/record with no real issues.

FWIW, I beta test for ToonTrack & can assure you there isn`t much you could do within any plugin, let alone EZD, to affect latency.
It all happens in your driver settings & the PDC.
Focus on getting your ASIO settings right & I think things will work out for you.
Never used a Yamaha e-drum kit, I have an old Roland TD8.

EDIT: Oh dear. After a quick whiz round the net it looks like Win10 and your octo capture don`t like each other much. Could have a lot to do with the latency issue. Are you actually on Win10?
Dear Ivansc,

First, thanks for your response and willingness to help me with this? Answers to each of your questions are below:

1. I am using OctaCapture's drivers.

2. Yes. OctaCapture allows me to go a low as 32, although I can rarely use that setting. I have tried setting the buffer as low as I can but there is just enough latency to throw the drummer off.

RE ezDrummer - I don't have this problem with my midi keys using another virtual instrument. One thing I have wondered was should I monitor via OctaCapture or via Reaper? And would that make a difference?

Any other thoughts?

RE Win10 and OctaCapture, I have been using the OctaCapture for a while now and other than this drum issue I have had no problems. It was worked fantastic for me.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJSE2 View Post
I've found the two things that affect latency for midi (specifically drums) are FX with PDC (on the track or anywhere in the project) and the buffer (or "block") size you're using. On my system 256 works well (128 or lower would be better, but my system can't quite handle it).
JayJSE2,

Thanks for your feedback.

Based on your comment, I think it's try rendering all the tracks down to one track and using only that track for the drummer to play along with. That should remove the stress from FX, don't you think?

John
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:26 PM   #9
sisaso
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Freezing Tracks is always a good Idea.
Before doing so disable all FX on the Masterbuss and see if that helps. When recording live you don't want any Plugin Delay on the Masterbuss. Check your Fx on the Master and disable all that have Plugin Delay. Use the Performance meter to check.
Greetings
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:57 PM   #10
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Default Thanks and a question

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Originally Posted by sisaso View Post
Freezing Tracks is always a good Idea.
Before doing so disable all FX on the Masterbuss and see if that helps. When recording live you don't want any Plugin Delay on the Masterbuss. Check your Fx on the Master and disable all that have Plugin Delay. Use the Performance meter to check.
Greetings
Thanks for this. I don't put ANY FX on the Masterbus during the recording phase of a project and only add them during mixing, so that's not been the issue.

But I have not always used the freezing tracks technique so I'll try that. I'm not sure how to use the Performance meter, but I will pull up some YouTube videos and learn how!!

QUESTION: Do you think it makes a difference for this issue if, while recording, I am monitoring through the audio interface (QuadCapture) or through Reaper itself?
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:26 PM   #11
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I understand that you want to record the midi signal of the E-Kit.What do you mean with monitoring through the audio interface ?
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Yes. OctaCapture allows me to go a low as 32, although I can rarely use that setting. I have tried setting the buffer as low as I can but there is just enough latency to throw the drummer off.
So, what buffer size are you using? What is as low as you can?
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:48 AM   #13
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Default Monitoring

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Originally Posted by sisaso View Post
I understand that you want to record the midi signal of the E-Kit.What do you mean with monitoring through the audio interface ?
As I answer this question I find that I am uncertain that what I'm about to say actually makes sense! Please forgive my ignorance and feel free to set me straight on this!

My usual practice to monitor while recording has been to have the signal go from Reaper via USB to my audio interface (OctaCapture) and then from OctaCapture outputs to a small mixer.

But it has seemed to me that there is an alternative where I plug my headphones directly into the OctaCapture and monitor the signal (playback of existing tracks plus the track(s) recording in real time) directly via the OctaCapture.

As I write this it occurs to me that this might be the same thing. However, I have thought that these were two separate signal paths for monitoring real time recording.

what am I missing here?
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:50 AM   #14
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Default Buffer size with OctaCapture

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Originally Posted by drumphil View Post
So, what buffer size are you using? What is as low as you can?
The lowest I can go with the OctaCapture is 32 samples.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstanard View Post
The lowest I can go with the OctaCapture is 32 samples.
32/64 samples 'should' be low enough unless... 1) there is additional latency that isn't known or 2) the drummer is playing faster notes/tempo which absolutely can through someone like a drummer off that may not bother a guitar player.

I know this as a guitar player where I've had to turn off any monitoring when using my drum pads to lay down a beat and need to use fast alternating hi-hats or similar because the latency can't seem to get low enough for it not to throw me off. With notes that close in time, the effect of small latencies is amplified.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
32/64 samples 'should' be low enough unless... 1) there is additional latency that isn't known or 2) the drummer is playing faster notes/tempo which absolutely can through someone like a drummer off that may not bother a guitar player.

I know this as a guitar player where I've had to turn off any monitoring when using my drum pads to lay down a beat and need to use fast alternating hi-hats or similar because the latency can't seem to get low enough for it not to throw me off. With notes that close in time, the effect of small latencies is amplified.
karbomusic,

Thanks, makes sense. I'm also exploring some of the other stuff folks have thrown out here that I know little about (so far) like Plug-in Delay Compensation.
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