Old 02-14-2014, 05:44 PM   #41
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Me too.

Although I have a full install of Harrison Mixbus sitting on a hard drive pending the repair of my "spare " i5 lappy's mobo so I can have it on a dedicated Linux machine.

Maybe I will stick the Linux demo of Bitwig on it too....
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:55 PM   #42
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here's an idea


to elaborate

How about some form of Session type view where we can double click on "cells" and it opens a midi editor for each one but is Separate from the main project view. so you can have lets say ezdrummer on one group of cells and compose and play back each Cell without the main project playing back.and add your drum part variations in each cell and drag each one wherever you want. into the main project.

here is one example showing how it could be used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlYdxc1LnDI

The first pic here shows how it would look if we had a whole separate page for doing this. it show rows of clips. each rectangle or "clip" can be double clicked and edited via a piano roll and linked to a vst.



the second pic here shows how it would look with just a simple column on the right side of the project view. you could compose parts over here and drag the performances as midi files onto any track.

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Old 02-14-2014, 05:58 PM   #43
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The ONLY thing causing me to look at bitwig is the live-like session view. I LOVE reaper but for live use...being able to improvise or being able to at least have a bit more flexibility while still running click/backing easily is something pretty enticing
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:44 PM   #44
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I actually like Reaper because it's not live-focused. It's the classic style DAW that gets the job done. On the other hand, Live is great for putting up ideas but I feel you lose focus when it comes to arranging the track.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:30 AM   #45
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I actually like Reaper because it's not live-focused. It's the classic style DAW that gets the job done. On the other hand, Live is great for putting up ideas but I feel you lose focus when it comes to arranging the track.
The whole point is to "lose focus". It's not about mentally getting into 'arrangement mode' and carefully planning your song structure with the precision of syllogistic logic.

What non-linear arrangement is about, is jamming all the parts you've made with your DAW as the most advanced and powerful musical instrument ever created, and having your creative "accidents" recorded, the best of which are things you would've never thought of in a linear "song arrangement mode" mindset. This alone is reason to add it, without considering the obvious benefits for live performance.

It's not for everyone, but when people get it, they REALLY get it, and it becomes quite difficult to work in a traditional linear DAW environment that divorces the arrangement process from the creative/musical aspects of production. Reaper is miles ahead of many DAWs in other areas, but the seemingly complete neglect in this vital area is forcing some passionate, and long-time users to look elsewhere (Bitwig/Live), even if they prefer Reaper's flexibility/workflow in every other area.

Live's session view, which seems to have been emulated to some degree in almost EVERY DAW *except* Reaper at this point, is one of the most important and useful innovations for electronic music production/performance from the day it was introduced...

Having a brilliant lead developer/coder and visionary like Justin, who codes what they are passionate about and personally want/use, has certainly been a net benefit for the Reaper community. But when it comes to electronic music production (where the primary innovation in DAW functionality currently stems from), a large number of modern producer's are not going to be represented, or at least will be grossly under-represented with that development ethos.

Just as Schwa's addition to the development team has been crucial to the recent evolution of Reaper, I think it's time to add a developer who really understands the methodology/workflow of electronic music at the core of their being, rather than impose the task on someone having little interest, yet feeling obligated because something has been a top requested feature for half a decade...
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:51 AM   #46
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Bitwig is competing with ableton. Ableton is not competing with reaper. Therefore bitwig is not competing with reaper.

I wish the bitwigs every luck on earth for a commercial success, but for me I see no reason to switch from reaper(with a bit of ableton) to bitwig .
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:15 AM   #47
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The whole point is to "lose focus". It's not about mentally getting into 'arrangement mode' and carefully planning your song structure with the precision of syllogistic logic.

What non-linear arrangement is about, is jamming all the parts you've made with your DAW as the most advanced and powerful musical instrument ever created, and having your creative "accidents" recorded, the best of which are things you would've never thought of in a linear "song arrangement mode" mindset. This alone is reason to add it, without considering the obvious benefits for live performance.

It's not for everyone, but when people get it, they REALLY get it, and it becomes quite difficult to work in a traditional linear DAW environment that divorces the arrangement process from the creative/musical aspects of production. Reaper is miles ahead of many DAWs in other areas, but the seemingly complete neglect in this vital area is forcing some passionate, and long-time users to look elsewhere (Bitwig/Live), even if they prefer Reaper's flexibility/workflow in every other area.

Live's session view, which seems to have been emulated to some degree in almost EVERY DAW *except* Reaper at this point, is one of the most important and useful innovations for electronic music production/performance from the day it was introduced...

Having a brilliant lead developer/coder and visionary like Justin, who codes what they are passionate about and personally want/use, has certainly been a net benefit for the Reaper community. But when it comes to electronic music production (where the primary innovation in DAW functionality currently stems from), a large number of modern producer's are not going to be represented, or at least will be grossly under-represented with that development ethos.

Just as Schwa's addition to the development team has been crucial to the recent evolution of Reaper, I think it's time to add a developer who really understands the methodology/workflow of electronic music at the core of their being, rather than impose the task on someone having little interest, yet feeling obligated because something has been a top requested feature for half a decade...
I know what you mean and I've been there. I wanted to switch to Reaper because Live became so bloated, slow and unstable, but I couldn't imagine working in a classic linear mode and not having a "clip pool".
But I got used to it and it actually helped me think a song structurally.
I guess that, to a point, it's pretty subjective. I personally want Reaper to remain a simple, lightweight tool which gets a specific job done.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:20 AM   #48
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Default Bitwig coming in March?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ....................



Very good, Sir!
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:11 AM   #49
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I personally want Reaper to remain a simple, lightweight tool which gets a specific job done.
I absolutely agree!!

I have Cubase 5 & Samplitude 10 pro. I'm not going to knock them for what they do, etc.

But I got tired of expensive annual upgrades to pay for plug-ins almost as good as other plug-ins I already own.

I got tired of having to re-learn my DAW every year and wait for the inevitable bug-fixes.

I did buy Harrison Mix-Bus on sale because I like it for mastering, but I don't need it to be a DAW.

I don't mind using different tools for different tasks, in fact I prefer it.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:19 AM   #50
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Save me the trouble, BB. Was it worth the effort to install HM?
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:27 PM   #51
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uh... REAPER is the ultimate for live PLAYING For what I NEED to do, hands on playing - without REAPER I doubt I'd hold any hope -
yeah, the clip layer would be interesting though if it's a STRUCTURED PERFORMANCE song song song, REAPER, scripts, actions and ALL, ...
uh, yeah, uh... :-)


best wishes to all
random uh.. for fun or sun.

Gonna check out Bitwig of course. Actually it getting into my workflow would be a happy (jaw dropping) surprise
and entirely unique as all the others tried (for my way, that is) just don't get used, ever. An example would be
that I might loop a section in REAPER come up with some parts then record 'em, all the while thinking of what I'll
play in performance later with the awesomeness REAPER bestows.

oh yeah, good comment(s) above, AND/ALSO sooo agreed, (in my opinion) REAPER is not competing with Ableton's live.

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Old 03-12-2014, 04:22 PM   #52
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Bitwig sounds a tad insignificant.

Perhaps they should have called it Bigwig.
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:32 PM   #53
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good luck to BitWig...perhaps it can be Rewired as a slave into Reaper...
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:54 PM   #54
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...perhaps it can be Rewired as a slave into Reaper...
No Rewire available in the Batwig.

ns
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:09 PM   #55
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No Rewire available in the Batwig.

ns

all righty then...and so it starts...
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:07 PM   #56
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No VCAs and $399? faghetaboutit
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:55 PM   #57
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- No Rewire support.
- No Video support.
- No Surround support.

For sound-for-picture guys like me, I say:

- No INTEREST support.

(drops mic on floor and walks away)
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:06 PM   #58
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Pretty lame about the rewire!

Takes in Bitwig?

Hardware Outputs?
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:25 PM   #59
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It's a 1.0.

Look back at Reaper 1.0.
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
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It's a 1.0.

Look back at Reaper 1.0.
but with a $60/$400 ratio? I could look back 'til the big bang and it still seems off...
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Old 03-14-2014, 03:58 PM   #61
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I wasn't aware that Reaper and Bitwig were at war.

Who cares? If you don't like it or think it costs too much, don't buy it. Easy.

The price they set for it has nothing at all to do with Reaper.

My only point was that - all - 1.0's are missing stuff. Nobody should be surprised by that.
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Old 03-14-2014, 05:37 PM   #62
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My only point was that - all - 1.0's are missing stuff. Nobody should be surprised by that.
But how can that be so, considering they've been developing BitWig since 2008 or so?

As far as I know, Justin started working on Reaper in 2005 and the first public release was in...2005. So it's understandable Reaper 0.001 or whatever was missing features, but how can some pretty obvious stuff be missing from a DAW that has been developed for about half a decade in secret? Incompetence and indifference are words that are ringing to me here...

edit : As far as Rewire goes...I've been unfortunate enough to see the SDK source code and I understand why people wouldn't want to develop based on it. Also, I've never enjoyed using any software via Rewire as an end user. But not considering surround sound support for a product that is supposed to be a DAW...That is just incompetent and indifferent.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:10 PM   #63
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But how can that be so, considering they've been developing BitWig since 2008 or so?
Again, it's not a contest. Tell you what...

... please name for me - any - 1.0 audio workstation you've ever seen that wasn't missing a good bit of stuff at 1.0 no matter how long they'd been working on it before release.

Quote:
Incompetence and indifference are words that are ringing to me here...
It takes a good 10 years to be really feature complete. See Reaper approaching year 10 and just now really sorting out midi. Or is that incompetence and indifference also?

Jesus guys, you can't put every feature in a 1.0. Not sure why anyone is surprised about that.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:32 PM   #64
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Sorry for the stupid question, but can anyone tell someone living in a cave why Bitwig is exciting (to some)?
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:38 PM   #65
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My guess would be for the same reason that some people like Ableton, but I don't use live and won't be using Bitwig either so, just a guess.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:39 PM   #66
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Sorry for the stupid question, but can anyone tell someone living in a cave why Bitwig is exciting (to some)?
I have no fucking idea why anyone would be excited about BitWig. It's a product that's been rumored to exist since 2008-2009 and it looks like it will be finally released on 26th March of 2014. So there's just been a very very long hype and speculation period, which makes it seem like an interesting product, which it actually won't be once released. (I am pretty much unimpressed by the videos and verbal descriptions I've seen about it so far. Of course my opinion doesn't mean anything, but we will see when it's finally released if it will actually fly.)
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:51 PM   #67
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See Reaper approaching year 10 and just now really sorting out midi. Or is that incompetence and indifference also?
If I remember the history right, Reaper wasn't initially at all about supporting MIDI but that was pretty much public knowledge. It was just later that Cockos was persuaded that MIDI could be useful (for some people). They are still paying the price for that initial omission. The MIDI in Reaper is horribly designed and implemented. (Since they didn't properly think about it in the early stages of development.)

edit : I am not myself a big MIDI user, I just think about it when I need to use external equipment for remote control, never really for composition work anymore. Still, I can see that for example Pro Tools since about version 5 (from the year 1999) has a much smarter MIDI implementation than what Reaper currently has.

But what real information has existed about BitWig so far? They have been very secretive about the whole development process for years. I am wondering really hard what the heck they have been doing all this time, since the product that will be released this month will apparently be such a half-finished turd...(Remember that they've already talked about what will be postponed into the next major version even though the FIRST major version hasn't even been released...)
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:08 PM   #68
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It's just some guys trying to make a living selling software. They aren't hurting anyone.

So some people are excited about it, so what? When is that not always the case with something? So things get hyped, so what, always the case. It's really not that important.

Anyone who needs video support has - lots of apps - to choose from in the market. Nobody is waiting for Bitwig so they can score a TV commercial.

The software certainly isn't for me but I have no motivation to make personal attacks on those developers, calling them incompetent and all that. Not sure why people even do that.

On the contrary, I wish them success with their long term plans, whatever they are, since neither i nor anyone else here knows what those long range plans are.

It's amazing to me. A few guys cut out on their own to try to create a successful software business and unless they're JCS they're just... not given any respect at all.
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:55 PM   #69
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Sorry for the stupid question, but can anyone tell someone living in a cave why Bitwig is exciting (to some)?
I asked a similar question way back, is it an investment issue? or what?
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:03 PM   #70
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It's amazing to me. A few guys cut out on their own to try to create a successful software business and unless they're JCS they're just... not given any respect at all.
I think even the donkey would be sick of chasing the carrot eventually...

I have no ill feelings towards these guys, but give me a frickin' break...after all this time, I would think it should be the near perfect carrot...
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:16 PM   #71
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Hey, I never said they were marketing geniuses.

I do think they started the marketing hype - way - too early but that has nothing much to do with the product once it's released, which always is exactly what it is in any and all cases.

Lots of people will say... "They pissed me off taking so long with the beta so fuck em..." but we know that's mostly BS. When the demo drops and they can actually try it, most people who were interested two years ago will try it anyway and buy it if they like it, and anyone who bought something else recently already would have done that anyway.

And many who claim they already know it's shite will try it. Some just to bash on YT, others just because they have a curious nature and for no other reason.

For fucks sake, many people own like 5-6 daws so if they can get BWS on sale just to make beats with and import those files into "super daw plus xl", many will.

One thing we - always - knew for certain, that it wasn't going to be $60. . I also suspect it will be easy enough to get it for less than the $399 list price.
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:23 PM   #72
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One thing we - always - knew for certain, that it wasn't going to be $60.
and I bet the same could be said for $400...

anyway, that's it for me...I agree with the sentiment of "why all the excitement"...maybe sometime down the road, we'll see...but definitely not now...
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:29 PM   #73
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Nah. Many people actually guessed that price pretty accurately at $349 or $399. List prices for wanna be major market products are priced for the future, not for the 1.0. That way you don't have to raise the list price later and piss people off.

Expect some good sales.

Some were wishing for $199 like Logic but they were clearly delusional.

Best regards my friend.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:37 PM   #74
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$400 is steep.

They should release a core base version..(no instruments or samples... Just the functions and effect plugins)

at a reasonable price... At least you could then entice it to a wider market.

It why reaper has so many people jumping on board or switching, because it's so easy to try it, is not a massive blow to your pocket, and has a really good support user forum...

much the same as renoise....

renoise support rewire i think too... If your looking to use with reaper....
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Old 03-14-2014, 11:29 PM   #75
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Default I am happy with the Reaper approach

What I donīt like is all this loop and preset stuff bundled with a DAW. Within the retail price you have to pay a lot more people than just the coders.

But loop creators and preset designers are the new plague. I think, for most "music listeners" the music itself is no reason to pay for it. Than some musicians became sound designers and so preset banks are flooding an already crowded market. Now musicians are the new customers, resulting in even more half baked music.

I did some pre arrangements to get a vibe for a new longplayer and I tried to flip through some presets. I finished after the 30th sound in the category Keys. Then, as always, I started with a simple saw wave, and after 2 minutes I had a supportive dark E-Piano type sound. Granted, not very complicated, but useful.

So it would be a good business model to offer 2 flavors. Either as a "no preset discount" or as "content addon".

Itīs too bad magazines and blogs judge a product by loops and presets. They maybe have to. But itīs a plague, bandwidth or not.

I left Ableton Live because it became "hip and trendy", drifted away from a playground for experimentation. The core product didnīt evolve . Thatīs what brought me to Reaper. The selling point for Reaper is a rather pure DAW. Some megabytes instead of gigabytes. If BWS starts this way, then Iīm out.
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Old 03-14-2014, 11:29 PM   #76
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Quote:
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Sorry for the stupid question, but can anyone tell someone living in a cave why Bitwig is exciting (to some)?
3 words:

Electronic Music Production.

It's made for it, by people that seem to understand it.

Let's face it, that is where the evolution of DAW software is headed, because that's where music is evolving the fastest (riding on the coattails of Moore's Law).

If a person's requirement for DAW software is being able to emulate the same "traditional" recording setups that have been around since the late 60's, the market is pretty saturated and there is plenty of choice.

Personally, I see BitWig as an incredible musical instrument rather than a Studer combined with an SSL.

Not knocking anyone if that's what they desire and need, neither is better or worse but I think this is the major distinction between those who are excited for BitWig, and those who could care less.

"What? It doesn't have (insert recording feature X from Cubase in '93)? It's crap!"

But then on the other hand, it has some innovative *production* and *live performance* capabilities that people have been requesting for years to be included in Reaper (and even Ableton Live).

For 1.0 it looks very good. In 2.0 when they open up the modular architecture and add the online/network collaboration features it will be even more unique.

Think some of the best things from Ableton, Reaper, Reaktor and Ohm Studio rolled into one with a modern codebase and developers that understand their market (not trying to be everything to everyone). Sounds pretty exciting to me!


Horses for courses....
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:31 AM   #77
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If a person's requirement for DAW software is being able to emulate the same "traditional" recording setups that have been around since the late 60's, the market is pretty saturated and there is plenty of choice.
Exactamudo. Most people scoring for a living seem to use PT or Nuendo or DP or Logic. Most people running traditional studios use things like PT, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, etc. People doing electronic music mostly use Live, FLStudio, Orion and things like that.

Just because someone makes a new DAW doesn't mean they have any intention to compete with every single one those products above. It's pretty clear that Bitwig will be a direct competitor to the latter, Live, FLStudio, Orion and similar things.

If we are judging all workstations based on the current market then they all should have everything PT and Nuendo have, but they don't, because most are actually not trying to be those things.
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:19 AM   #78
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Sorry for the stupid question, but can anyone tell someone living in a cave why Bitwig is exciting (to some)?
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Old 03-15-2014, 04:13 PM   #79
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3 words:

Electronic Music Production.

It's made for it, by people that seem to understand it.

Let's face it, that is where the evolution of DAW software is headed, because that's where music is evolving the fastest (riding on the coattails of Moore's Law).

If a person's requirement for DAW software is being able to emulate the same "traditional" recording setups that have been around since the late 60's, the market is pretty saturated and there is plenty of choice.

Personally, I see BitWig as an incredible musical instrument rather than a Studer combined with an SSL.

Not knocking anyone if that's what they desire and need, neither is better or worse but I think this is the major distinction between those who are excited for BitWig, and those who could care less.

"What? It doesn't have (insert recording feature X from Cubase in '93)? It's crap!"

But then on the other hand, it has some innovative *production* and *live performance* capabilities that people have been requesting for years to be included in Reaper (and even Ableton Live).

For 1.0 it looks very good. In 2.0 when they open up the modular architecture and add the online/network collaboration features it will be even more unique.

Think some of the best things from Ableton, Reaper, Reaktor and Ohm Studio rolled into one with a modern codebase and developers that understand their market (not trying to be everything to everyone). Sounds pretty exciting to me!


Horses for courses....
I'm not arguing, just ignorant and curious (and probably out of the loop on the current state of non-REAPER DAWS...)

What makes Bitwig exciting for Electronic music producers who currently use REAPER?

Once upon a time I had licenses for Ableton, Reason, and Cakewalk's tragically underrated Project5, all of which I remember mostly as being uniquely well-suited to treating projects as movable blocks/measures, with P5 in particular having a great array of MIDI-based tools and effects like arpeggiators and pattern-generators and so on... is that the kind of stuff that Bitwig is supposed to excel at?

I've always been much more on the "real music" side of things (no slight intended by the term) of through-composed and live-played instruments. I've always found the ability to work with loops and measures to be extremely helpful in terms of roughly blocking out songs and ideas, but once the "regular" DAWs seemed to catch up in terms looping, time-stretching, pitch-shifting, and so on, a lot of the benefits Live and P5 seemed to fade away, for my purposes. But it's entirely possible that I'm just ignorant of what can be done with them.

Is the EDM appeal primarily something like soundsets or MIDI-specific tools, or is there something structurally unique about music-making that I'm missing out on?

I'd love to hear the sales-pitch for the kind of problems that Bitwig is supposed to solve that "ordinary" DAWs are missing. I took a look at their website but it all seemed vague and/or stuff that I can already do in REAPER (?)

I definitely get the Linux thing, but I feel like I'm missing something...?

(EDIT: One thing I obviously overlooked is soundsets and so on. Is that it?)
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Old 03-15-2014, 04:52 PM   #80
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Ableton/Bitwig type environments imo are more compositionally oriented. Now I could go on a rant about where ableton fails in other departments that actually hinder imo it's overall scope (ie audio editing/cpu overhead/etc) -

Though ideally Bitwig addresses those shortcomings while being more "compositionally" oriented versus "real music/tape machince" oriented.

NOw what someone deems to be more compositionally oriented could be debated, but if I was to sum it up, what these system allow you to do is actually more natural to how a band actually composes/jam. When a drummer plays, he mostly plays a loop, or if you bring an idea to him, he will play a looping beat to it - or vice versa. Then you can remember that part and move on.

If you play a long meandering melody over that drum beat, you typically don't have to tell the drummer every bar to play it again - he will do that. Then if he wants to change his kick pattern to suit the riff that developed, you again don't have to instruct him to do it every bar now in a new way. etc etc.

long story short, with these systems you can get ideas down much faster and more naturally, actually closer to how a band/composer really do create music. As well, many people seem to say - well I'm not into loop based music - but actually they really are - most music is based on loops. Often they had a bad experience with Ableton's lego like interface and poor editing and said blah. Though addressing audio production in this way imo, actaully allows one to make music that is LESS! loop like/static/etc. That is what many don't realize....

The idea that Bitwig incorporates that and as well has powerful typical DAW capapbalites that Ableton so lack is what the hype is all about, and rightly so
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