Old 03-15-2014, 06:00 PM   #81
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I agree with PitchSlap and gwok.
Here is a quote from Dominik Wilms (Bitwig, Technical Support Manager).
Quote:
People will definitely feel the difference between Bitwig and Ableton when they use it. When people had only seen the screenshots, they thought it was some kind of copy of Ableton Live. But at the same time, if you look at screenshoots of Cubase, Logic, Cakewalk, Pro Tools, or any sequencer that has been made within the last 20 years, they all look similar in a screenshot, due to the linear workflow. I think it would be wrong to leave out the non-linear workflow that Ableton pioneered. Ableton Live has been out for 15 years, and I’m a frankly bit surprised that no other company has done things like that as well. To be fair, some people tried but they didn’t get it right.

I don’t think you’ll mistake it for an Ableton-clone when you use it, because the difference lies in the workflow. You can make any piece of music in any program, since they have more or less the same features. The problem is that many DAWs are missing an intuitive factor that lets you have fun with it and work quickly. Back in the MPC days, you just threw in your samples and jammed with the machine. That’s missing form today’s sequencer programs. It’s like using an Office package today, where you have to know what you want to do when you open it, instead of getting inspired by the tools. So we tried to take some of Ableton’s concepts, and mix them with our ideas, and aimed to do things better.
The key points seem to be
- Non-linear workflow done right
- Fast and intuitive workflow
- Have fun and be inspired

DAW should not get in the way and slow down or distract the creative flow. I hope Bitwig will lead the way in this regard. And other DAWs, like Reaper, can learn from it and improve in usability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
What makes Bitwig exciting for Electronic music producers who currently use REAPER?
- Creating and building up song ideas is hopefully faster and more flexible because of non-linear workflow.
- Using plugin chains creatively is hopefully easier and faster beacuse native plugins and parameter modulation support are integrated to the GUI.
- Automating instruments and effects is hopefully easier and more flexible. For example you can use clip automation.
- Creating/using/editing audio and MIDI items or loops is hopefully faster and easier and less error-prone.

jnif

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Old 03-15-2014, 07:57 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
...
- Creating and building up song ideas is hopefully faster and more flexible because of non-linear workflow.
- Using plugin chains creatively is hopefully easier and faster beacuse native plugins and parameter modulation support are integrated to the GUI.
- Automating instruments and effects is hopefully easier and more flexible. For example you can use clip automation.
- Creating/using/editing audio and MIDI items or loops is hopefully faster and easier and less error-prone.

jnif
Thanks very much for the bullet-points. And sorry in advance for the stupid questions, but any chance someone could clarify:

- What does "non-linear workflow" mean? Some cursory googling makes it hard to distinguish from "non-destructive", which it seems like all modern DAWs already offer(?)

- I definitely get the idea of high-quality, integrated native plugins (I think). If I understand it properly, the idea there is kind of like Reason or Samplitude or the old Logic model, and/or how a lot of DAWs now include proprietary "channel strip" effects, where you don't need to load a separate plugin or deal with pop-up interfaces and compatibility stuff, and everything is controllable in the main interface, or something like that... is that about right?

- "Automating instruments and effects is hopefully easier and more flexible. For example you can use clip automation" makes a kind of sense, if I understand you correctly: you can apply automation to, for example, plugin parameters on a specific loop or clip, and they "stick" to the clip wherever you drag or copy it, etc... did I get that right? (if REAPER has an easy way to do this, I don't know it, and maybe this is part of what "non-linear workflow" means-- I could see where this could be useful for EDM production).

- "Creating/using/editing audio and MIDI items or loops is hopefully faster and easier and less error-prone." This part doesn't really compute for me. I'm not challenging, just asking: what is difficult or error-prone about this in REAPER?

I hope I'm not coming off as a fanboy looking for a fight, I'm genuinely trying to understand why a new DAW is exciting news. Thanks for your patience.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:30 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
Thanks very much for the bullet-points. And sorry in advance for the stupid questions, but any chance someone could clarify:

- What does "non-linear workflow" mean? Some cursory googling makes it hard to distinguish from "non-destructive", which it seems like all modern DAWs already offer(?)
"Nonliner workflow" was the paradigm shift introduced by Ableton Live's Session View. Basically instead of a linear left to right timeline, musical ideas (loops, phrases etc.) can be stored as "clips" in a top down grid.

One thing (among many) it allows you to do is use the DAW as an instrument and "jam" with all all the pieces triggering different parts (that all start/stop on beat).

This is much more like how a band would have a bunch of ideas in their head and jam to see what works, rather than the typical arrangement process for electronic music using conventional DAWs.

The best thing is you can record everything you do onto the linear timeline. This allows for some wonderful "accidents" and makes the arrangement of a song a performance (which you have full freedom to edit later), rather than boring exercise of copying a 16 bar loop 8 times and manually muting different parts etc for a song arrangement (oversimplification).

Pretty much every DAW has some type of functionality like this now, but most are half-assed implementations. BitWig is evolving it further.

In BitWig unlike Live, the non-linear session view and linear timeline are not separate screens but can co-exist allowing to work both ways at once.

It's kind of hard to intellectualize it, but the advantages and potential become immediately obvious quite quickly when working with it.

If you are pressing record and having a rehearsed band play their already arranged song from start to finish, it probably won't be much use. But if you are the musician, producer, engineer, songwriter, arranger etc. and wear all of these hats simultaneously it allows creating music in a much more intuitive and organic way.


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Old 03-16-2014, 12:33 AM   #84
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I had never heard of Bitwig until I got on this site. From what I've read I don't see how it is any better than FL Studio or especially Reason 7.

Personally, I think Reason is a piece of cake and VERY user friendly. All those claims on the Bitwig site don't stand out to me as special or new.
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Old 03-16-2014, 05:29 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
- What does "non-linear workflow" mean? Some cursory googling makes it hard to distinguish from "non-destructive", which it seems like all modern DAWs already offer(?)
It's not the same as non-destructive editing/workflow, it's totally different thing. Of course you can (and probably will like to) use non-destructive and non-linear workflows together, but it's better to think about them as completely different things.

Non-linear workflow means that you can have multiple independent play cursors running at the same time in your project. Typically (like in Ableton, and I guess also in Bitwig) there is one play cursor per track.
You can freely start and stop those play cursors in any order at any time. You can have some play cursors looping, some play cursors playing cotinuously through sequence of items, some play cursors playing only single items (one-shot mode, stop automatically at the end of item). You can have any combination of those different playback cursors running at the same time.

You can also record (or in some other way add) new items to your projetc while non-linear playback is running on other tracks. This is great for trying out new ideas within a song. You don't need to rearrange your song to be able to experiment with new ideas.

And while the play cursors are independent, they are still not totally "out of control". They can be automatically synced to common project tempo. This way you can easily launch playback cursors in synch.

You can also arrange your musical ideas freely without worrying about their position in timeline. You can think of it as a large canvas where you can freely position your items to musically logical groups (or parts/sections of your song). And you can easily play those item groups in any order (scene playback in Live), and try out different arrangement ideas by freely playing any mix of items from different groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
- I definitely get the idea of high-quality, integrated native plugins (I think). If I understand it properly, the idea there is kind of like Reason or Samplitude or the old Logic model, and/or how a lot of DAWs now include proprietary "channel strip" effects, where you don't need to load a separate plugin or deal with pop-up interfaces and compatibility stuff, and everything is controllable in the main interface, or something like that... is that about right?
Yes, that is part of what I meant. But there is also much more.

To use plugins creatively you have to be able to construct and manage complex plugin chains effectively. So, it's not really about traditional "channel strips", it's more about being able to create your own plugin chains.
Important parts of this are:
- Easy construction and editing of multiple parallel signal processing paths within plugin chains.
- Easy control (mute,solo,vol,pan,automation,etc) and metering of signal flow within all paths inside plugin chains.
- Easy management of complex chains using hierarchy. Combining parts of plugin chain to "sub-chains" and be able to expand and collapse those sub-chains in plugin chain GUI.

Reaper is pretty weak in all those areas. You can create complex plugin chains in Reaper, but controlling and managing those chains is not fun. For example using plugin pin connector dialogs is slow and confusing. And because there is no built in support for signal flow control and metering within plugin chains you will end up using lots of utility plugins that will create unnecessary window clutter and make relatively simple processing chains unnecessarily complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
- "Automating instruments and effects is hopefully easier and more flexible. For example you can use clip automation" makes a kind of sense, if I understand you correctly: you can apply automation to, for example, plugin parameters on a specific loop or clip, and they "stick" to the clip wherever you drag or copy it, etc... did I get that right? (if REAPER has an easy way to do this, I don't know it, and maybe this is part of what "non-linear workflow" means-- I could see where this could be useful for EDM production).
Yes, you got that right.
There is also some other problems in Reaper's way of managing automation envelopes. The automation workflow in Reaper can be unnecassarily complicated and slow. For example see this thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=128673.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
- "Creating/using/editing audio and MIDI items or loops is hopefully faster and easier and less error-prone." This part doesn't really compute for me. I'm not challenging, just asking: what is difficult or error-prone about this in REAPER?
Here are some examples.

Creating items:
- Recording MIDI with input-quantize enabled is buggy. Overdub recording over existing items (for example in loop) will produce all kinds of strange MIDI event problems.
- Item position and length of recorded items cannot be quantized automatically. (That is a very useful feature especially in non-linear workflow.)

Using items:
- Cannot automatically stretch audio within items to follow tempo changes.
- Pooling audio items is not supported. (I don't know if something like this is supported in Bitwig.)

Editing items:
- Non-destructive editing of looped items is not supported. You have to do unnecessary glueing before looping.
- Using "Loop section of items source" is essential feature for accurate looping of audio items. Unfortunately this feature is very difficult to use in Reaper. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=133847
- You can't easily experiment with different sections of source item. There is no separate wave editor view where you could easily select the section of audio source to be used. And "Loop section of items source" is not supported at all with MIDI items.
- Non-destructive grouping items into "container items" and using those container items like ordinary items in arrangement is not possible. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=136273
- MIDI item splitting behavior is bad. This is related to a problem in Reaper's MIDI implementation: End of MIDI note cannot extend beyond the end of item.

jnif

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Old 03-16-2014, 05:35 AM   #86
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http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=42

https://bitbucket.org/matthewjumpsof...reaper-scripts

i actually worked out a way to make non-destructive glue groups that update all instances when you unglue/edit any instance.

it uses hidden tracks to store the original items, which isnt ideal, but until someone adds a C extension that allows you to store item state chunk data in .RPP files (ideally in the <EXTENSION> node like SWS/SnM functions do), thats the best i can do. it also uses an empty container item behind the original items when you unglue, to keep track of which glue group they belong in. i really hope the devs see this, how simple it could be, and make a native version that lets you glue things without losing the original items from the project for good.

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Old 03-16-2014, 05:50 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewjumpsoffbuildings View Post
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=42

i actually worked out a way to make non-destructive glue groups that update all instances when you unglue/edit any instance.

it uses hidden tracks to store the original items, which isnt ideal, but until someone adds a C extension that allows you to store item state chunk data in .RPP files (ideally in the <EXTENSION> node like SWS/SnM functions do), thats the best i can do
It is great to have some innovative scripts adding features to Reaper. But at the same time this also kind of highlights what is bad about Reaper. There are way too many workarounds.

I think, based on marketing material, that Bitwig's development method is very different compared to Reaper. They seem to be much more focused on usability, workflow, GUI design and making thing easy to use while still providing advanced features. I hope they prefer to create great native features instead of relying on community created extensions and workarounds that don't integrate well to the core application and GUI.

jnif

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Old 03-16-2014, 06:08 AM   #88
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dont get me wrong, i hate the fact that you cant non-destructively glue audio items together, edit instances and have the others update, audio ghosting/pooling etc, out of the box. especially considering they bothered to do ghosting for midi items, just not audio. i very nearly binned reaper over that.

but until the devs decide to stop leaving audio items as a second-class citizen, it is nice that reaper is open enough to allow me (someone who has never used python before) to cobble together something to approximate it. it sucks that i have to, but at least i can. tho, ill say again, if a novice to python and reascript can hack something together to add a fundamental feature to audio items, i dont see how hard it could be for the devs to do it :/
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Old 03-16-2014, 06:28 AM   #89
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Here are some examples.

Creating items:

- Item position and length of recorded items cannot be quantized automatically. (That is a very useful feature especially in non-linear workflow.)
Also see the "Global Quantization" FR in my signature for more on his. Extremely important. We started to get somewhere with the "wait until start of next measure" action, and maybe someone has hacked together some useful custom actions, but live looping and composition still leaves *a lot* to be desired.

Another point about the difference between DAWs that behave as musical instruments and those emulating a traditional recording studio is that with Ableton (and presumably BitWig) the audio engine always has priority and every function can be done without interrupting playback, and you can essentially get all the parts of a song conceived and recorded without ever having to stop playback.

With Reaper, what should be background tasks with a lower priority, take focus and either interupt, or stop playback completely. In 2014 with a quad i7 is it really that hard to continue playing when I use "Save as" or freeze a track (etc.)?

Compositional/production oriented DAWs truly aim to be the quickest and most intuitive way to take you from the initial spark of an idea to a nearly finished track. The program aims to keep you in "creative mode" the entire time.

Traditional DAWs like Reaper force the user to always be balancing "creative mode" with "technical engineer mode". Start/stop, start/stop, move this here, move that there, stop again, trim this part etc. etc.

As mentioned before, if your job is purely the "technical guy" as a recording engineer this is fine, and perhaps, in many ways desirable, but if you're primarily an artist, and the software is merely a means to an ends the more it supports your workflow (generally by getting the eff out the way), the better. If you stop to consider what percentage of Reaper's current, and future users likely fit into the former vs. the latter category it's not unreasonable to argue that numerous areas of the program related to workflow should be a higher priority than they appear to be.

In this regard, a long standing criticism I have of Reaper is that new features seem to be linear and technical by default, and written from the perspective of a software engineer and not a musician (the 4.61pre6 timeline changes are a perfect example). Musicians speak in BPM, bars and beats, Reaper always wants to shout at you in minutes and seconds, and it typically takes a bit of prodding from the user base to make new features function in a way that is supportive of the creative process (which will obviously have a degree of variability, but the fact that DAWs like Live and Studio One consistently get praise in this area means there are "better" ways to do a lot of things).
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Old 03-16-2014, 06:56 AM   #90
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... development method is very different compared to Reaper. They seem to be much more focused on usability, workflow, GUI design and making thing easy to use while still providing advanced features.
True. Which is probably why the two development timelines aren't really even directly comparable. You can look at the GUI and tell it took some thought and planning, it wasn't "let's see what users like and don't like and see what we can change along the way", it looks like a fully thought out and completely uniform and consistent user interface and what may turn out to be - maybe, we'll see - an audio engine that's capable of some things not possible elsewhere.

It's the same reason S1 took so long to get to 1.0, about 3 years, the focus on usability and consistency in the design. Everything fits.
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:41 AM   #91
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gotta say, i'm really excited to try it out. if only so that i can take workflow ideas from it and adapt them in reaper. but yeah, having watched all the bitwig vids, it looks like a beast for electonic music production
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Old 03-22-2014, 02:02 AM   #92
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Meanwhile ... there is a 14 page Guide and a 3 page Review in Computer Music 203 (May 2014) issue.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:04 AM   #93
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True. Which is probably why the two development timelines aren't really even directly comparable. You can look at the GUI and tell it took some thought and planning, it wasn't "let's see what users like and don't like and see what we can change along the way", it looks like a fully thought out and completely uniform and consistent user interface and what may turn out to be - maybe, we'll see - an audio engine that's capable of some things not possible elsewhere.

It's the same reason S1 took so long to get to 1.0, about 3 years, the focus on usability and consistency in the design. Everything fits.
Lawrence, you have always made well thought-out and constructive posts (along with many others here).

I say that because I took the time to read this thread and was put off by the first few pages.
I mean, come on. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it people.

I was one of those who tried S1 when it was released - I got excited about it, I came here and told everyone that I was excited. It came out - I tried it - didn't take.
But as much as i love Reaper I certainly didn't come here first saying "Meh, it won't be any better than Reaper".
I look forward to new releases so that if there is something game-changing, I get to come back here and ask if anyone else has seen it - and maybe start a discussion on whether it's feasible to add to Reaper.

Here's an idea - try a free demo (assuming there will be one), try it, and then come back and say "I didn't like it" or "It isn't better than Reaper, but here's what I did like about it..." etc.

I used to post on the Avid forum given that I occasionally use Pro Tools. Wow. The raging about things like "where's our 64bit!!" (didn't stop them using it of course)
Yeah, well, look at it now.

I love this forum, and I love how we can say what we like - get our true feelings about something on the table without fear of being thread-locked (unless it's something that goes WAY off the rails of course!).
But for goodness' sake - don't knock something before you've sat in front of it for an hour.
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Old 03-22-2014, 06:10 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
[...] The key points seem to be
- Non-linear workflow done right
- Fast and intuitive workflow
- Have fun and be inspired

DAW should not get in the way and slow down or distract the creative flow. I hope Bitwig will lead the way in this regard. And other DAWs, like Reaper, can learn from it and improve in usability.
Great concepts in theory, but this is where Ableton Live has gone badly wrong in practice, imho. With Live, accommodating novice users more often than not comes at the expense of advanced/expert users. When, for example, the developers are facing the choice whether or not to display parameter values on the screen, they tend to think that would only distract most users, and thus leave it out. Ableton is *very* reluctant to give users *options* as they might be confusing to users (which also means more costs for support, of course), and has repeatedly pulled useful features and options in an effort to make things simple.

The result is a dumbed down application with a dumbed down user interface (and an installed user base to match it - note how hardly anybody has ever noticed that Live's automation is completely broken). Let's not *ever* dumb down REAPER. And let's hope Bitwig doesn't make the same mistakes Ableton did.
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[...]- Using plugin chains creatively is hopefully easier and faster beacuse native plugins and parameter modulation support are integrated to the GUI. [...]
Haha, really? "Native plug-ins"? You mean virtual instruments and effects that you *can't* use as a plug-in in any other application (and thus aren't plug-ins at all)?

Mind you, such tight integration between instruments/effects and GUI may improve performance and ease of use, but also lead to lock-in of users (and much the same goes for the forthcoming modular audio stuff as well). In the case of Ableton, this seems to make them care much less about making (third party) plug-ins work well in Live. As a notable example, PDC with automated plug-in parameters *still* isn't working, even after all these years. In stark contrast, note how ReaPlugs facilitate users to switch back and forth between REAPER and other apps that can use VST plug-ins). Sure enough, existing plug-in formats may suck, but creating yet another proprietary format doesn't really help fix that.
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Old 03-23-2014, 11:43 PM   #95
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Wow, this looks really good. I'm sure all of this could be done in Reaper too, but it's the workflow that's the difference.

Better in Bitwig 2 - Audio Editing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch3MBvxgVLY
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:16 AM   #96
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I still think this will struggle to sell, stepping in to a crowded market and not having the sense to seriously undercut with your V1, this will end up discounted massively on a regular basis like S1 has been since it was released.

Presonus are a huge company that can bolster lack of sales and build a solid long term backbone for their DAW, Bitwig i am not so sure about, they have already made many poor marketing decisions.
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Old 03-24-2014, 10:11 AM   #97
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i disagree about the poor marketing decisions. they had to announce it real early to build awareness of it and to build the hype. they couldn't afford to say nothing about it and then bam, on the 26th it's out.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:20 PM   #98
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I still think this will struggle to sell, stepping in to a crowded market and not having the sense to seriously undercut with your V1, this will end up discounted massively on a regular basis like S1 has been since it was released.

Presonus are a huge company that can bolster lack of sales and build a solid long term backbone for their DAW, Bitwig i am not so sure about, they have already made many poor marketing decisions.
I think we are a bit biased because of the cost of Reaper, but yes, I do think it is a bit too expensive to maximize their sales.

While they have said there will only be "one version", I think offering a lite or intro version which can be bundled with hardware and sold cheaply (less than $100), could help entice a lot of people who will eventually get the full version.

Advanced features like the modulation system (in v2) would be an example of something that wouldn't be in the basic version..
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:44 PM   #99
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Dunno.

There are lots of $400 and plus products not having any trouble finding customers so I think it's all speculation at this point. Unless we find those guys in bankruptcy court at some point, we usually have to assume they'll be making a profit.

It's fun to play backseat CEO but that's all it is, guessing. They only need enough worldwide sales to pay salaries, pay investors, and keep the lights on.

What they have in their favor is that the daw market is full of people who can't resist buying multiple products because they're always searching for the holy grail. It's not really a competition if many people are buying 5-6 of them. A sale is a sale.

They are - imo - smart by chatting and putting up a forum on KVR because it's those kinda places where the daw addicts usually hang out, guys who own 7 daws and are always looking over the fence for another.

If they can hold the crackers back a little, they're probably gonna make a lot of money... or at least enough to keep the business viable... which is always better than working for somebody else.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:57 PM   #100
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in 4 years bitwig will be ubiquitous
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Old 03-24-2014, 03:28 PM   #101
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No clue.

I do tend to doubt if the stuff we talk about matters all that much to most small software business owners, "market share" and all that other mostly irrelevant "net contest" stuff. The only thing that mostly matters is making more money than you spend, making a profit, so you have more control over your own destiny.

At the end of the day, small business is mostly just about creating a job for yourself and others, and if you do also happen to become rich along the way, that's a definite plus. If not, you're still usually better off then most... if the business financially supports you for many years.
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Old 03-24-2014, 05:04 PM   #102
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Default It's not a bad thing to try it out I think no?

I'll try it out : just to see if Bitwig will bring new game changer!!!
I worked on Cubase 20 years ago for about 10-12 years : I prefer Reaper...
I worked on Cakewalk, I switched on Samplitude, I kept this last til now but I work exclusively on Reaper....
I discovered FL Studio and Live for EDM stuffs, I kept Live as a live tool...
I discovered the last 5 years Studio One and Reaper : the last one discouraged me because of his customisable "side" as I did not have time for it : I continued on S1 but a 80 track project showed me the "limits" of S1 : I switched on Reaper and the same project became a "funny game".

With Reaper I don't search for something anymore I get my Fx, I get my Tracks, I create my Auxes, my Busses, my Folders, my snapshots, I don't search for anything anymore men!! I tell U it's Pleasure, it(s fun, it's cool and I can create, inspire me....And i'm not afraid anymore to had tracks, auxes or Busses, folders or takes.

Some of my project counts 8-10 tracks for the lead vocal, 10-14 tracks for Drums and so on without fear of getting lost at some points.. I don't search for my automation enveloppes anymore, not like S1 (Aux Tracks...)

I see some limitations but I'm curious to see what Bitwig can bring us!!

Let see, let see
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:30 PM   #103
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Well, it showed up in my music store's catalog now (€289 street price for the boxed version, which is cheaper than the download version). The thing that stands out is that it is listed as "Bitwig Studio Standard". This implies that there might eventually be a "Pro" or "Suite" version, which I had hoped they would not do. Just speculation, but it was unexpected to see it being called "Standard".
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:23 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mivo View Post
Well, it showed up in my music store's catalog now (€289 street price for the boxed version, which is cheaper than the download version). The thing that stands out is that it is listed as "Bitwig Studio Standard". This implies that there might eventually be a "Pro" or "Suite" version, which I had hoped they would not do. Just speculation, but it was unexpected to see it being called "Standard".
Also makes me think how much will the version 2 upgrade/update cost? They promise new things in Version 2 but do not mention if it will be free upgrade for Version 1 owners or not. Having been on the Cubase 2 year upgrade wagon and of course Cakewalks yearly upgrade/rental not sure I ever want to get back on it.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:09 AM   #105
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The GUI is nice! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpO-YkJ9yMo
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:43 AM   #106
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Thomann in Europe have it up for sale now and at a discount :-)


https://www.thomann.de/gb/bitwig_studio_standard.htm
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:31 PM   #107
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oh look, yep's involved now. I echo his sentiments on this matter. Can't fathom what's so exciting about this piece of software.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:25 PM   #108
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Just saw that in my college, hopefully we will be able to see it in action:
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:38 PM   #109
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Quote:
Ableton is *very* reluctant to give users *options* as they might be confusing to users (which also means more costs for support, of course), and has repeatedly pulled useful features and options in an effort to make things simple.
This caught my eye and makes its own very good sense. The reason it did catch my eye is it to me shows that products should be matched to "type of user" needs instead of "this DAW should rule all DAWs". In other words it may be less smart to assume a single DAW should fit every single possible user scenario when one might be better served just choosing the one where the design concept is the best fit for them. AKA pick the one where the devs vision and user's vision and ideas are more closely aligned rather than the opposite and trying to force it on the user or the user forcing it on the DAW.

There is always the "I'm everything to everybody, so I need ever feature ever invented" user but to be honest I don't see how that person will ever truly have everything they need in a single product and IMHO it's nice to have different products with different people following different mantras. IMHO of course.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:48 PM   #110
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Here in France it is almost 8 AM.
Anyone bought it yet?
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:02 AM   #111
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Noon in Germany, and their servers can't handle the load. No surprise, though, and pretty much normal.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:17 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
This caught my eye and makes its own very good sense. The reason it did catch my eye is it to me shows that products should be matched to "type of user" needs instead of "this DAW should rule all DAWs". In other words it may be less smart to assume a single DAW should fit every single possible user scenario when one might be better served just choosing the one where the design concept is the best fit for them. AKA pick the one where the devs vision and user's vision and ideas are more closely aligned rather than the opposite and trying to force it on the user or the user forcing it on the DAW.

There is always the "I'm everything to everybody, so I need ever feature ever invented" user but to be honest I don't see how that person will ever truly have everything they need in a single product and IMHO it's nice to have different products with different people following different mantras. IMHO of course.
You make too much sense... and I'm sure someone will disagree.

Anyway, download is up... let the bashfest begin.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:36 AM   #113
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After having watched some Bitwig Videos I am pretty sure that this daw is more for people who make electronic music only using plugins only and who do not track or play real instruments, well, this will become the majority in the future anyway.
Is it possible that this daw is actually a daw created by the staff from NI ? If NI released a daw directly they might get in trouble with long-established daws ?! If this was the case, we would not find out immediately...

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Old 03-26-2014, 05:01 AM   #114
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I've just downloaded the demo and the program was by default installed in program files x86. So is Bitwig really only 32 bit? Or is it the demo limitation? The thing is, that the installer of the demo is the same as the full version's installer.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:12 AM   #115
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Quote:
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Is it possible that this daw is actually a daw created by the stuff from NI ?
Nope. Bitwig staff are ex-Ableton and ex-Vember Audio.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:14 AM   #116
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Strange.. so a 32 bit app could i.e. allocate as much RAM as a 64 bit?
I don't think so because it is just the audio enginge that runs in 64 bit.
Reapers x32-installer also features a 64 bit audio enginge, right? Can this be used on a 32 bit OS as well or will it only be 32 bit then?
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:16 AM   #117
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Huh, where is Lawrence's post? This is what my last post referred to.

Quote:
My understanding is that the app / gui is 32-bit but the audio engine is both, and will run the version that matches your OS. If you have a 64-bit OS it will run 64-bit, if not, if will run as 32-bit.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:20 AM   #118
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Ive made a quick test between reaper and bitwig right now, 64 tracks with sylenth1, fabfilter proq,proc,saturn and valhalla vintage verb in each track, and playing at the same time a triad chord.

Reaper , 36% of my total cpu.
Bitwig, 66% .

Reaper still being the king in cpu consumption compared to any daw in the market.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:27 AM   #119
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trying to launch the bitwig demo before going to work.
It hangs on splash screen.
I'm on win 7 x86.
Sorry bitwig, will try again later, not a good start.
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:12 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djomardiaz View Post
Ive made a quick test between reaper and bitwig right now, 64 tracks with sylenth1, fabfilter proq,proc,saturn and valhalla vintage verb in each track, and playing at the same time a triad chord.

Reaper , 36% of my total cpu.
Bitwig, 66% .

Reaper still being the king in cpu consumption compared to any daw in the market.
Go to Bitwig´s global settings and select "divide CPU usage in half", so Bitwig will be a littler better - only 33 % !
In case you do not find that, maybe a kind of action could be created...
or put it on your "Bitwig´s wishlist"
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