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Old 07-14-2017, 02:49 AM   #1
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Default Can you train your hears with an allpass filter?

So I've done online EQ ear-trainers (as well as all kinds of musical ear training as a kid).

What about training your ear to hear phase? Practical? Useful?

Could you do it by playing with an all-pass filter?


Now when I EQ, I wonder how the phase is being effected, and whether that's what I'm hearing, or if I'm hearing something else.
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:18 AM   #2
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I suppose it's possible just not sure how one would do it practically. I learned from mixing live because I had to ring the rooms all the time then the normal risk of feedback during a show. A few years of that sort of burned frequencies into my head because if something were to feed back, I had to know and grab the slider on the EQ within seconds with no time for guessing which one it was.
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I suppose it's possible just not sure how one would do it practically. I learned from mixing live because I had to ring the rooms all the time then the normal risk of feedback during a show. A few years of that sort of burned frequencies into my head because if something were to feed back, I had to know and grab the slider on the EQ within seconds with no time for guessing which one it was.
Haha. Someone could make a relatively fun videogame of that.

Live-mixing hero. So you're at a show, there's feedback and you have to grab it quickly, because the audience starts bleeding from the ears / dying.

But I'm thinking to train your hearing of phase, not frequency.

Maybe hearing phase shifting isn't so important?
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:54 AM   #4
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Haha. Someone could make a relatively fun videogame of that.

Live-mixing hero. So you're at a show, there's feedback and you have to grab it quickly, because the audience starts bleeding from the ears / dying.
That's a pretty damn good idea.

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But I'm thinking to train your hearing of phase, not frequency.

Maybe hearing phase shifting isn't so important?
I wouldn't think so, the pitch of the frequencies is what was burned in my mind. Phase where EQ is concerned is often about the method used to achieve the EQing, take a signal, make a copy, change their phase relationships, that change in relationship (addition/cancellation) is how we get the frequency boosted or cut. But that's getting out of my wheelhouse quickly.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:07 AM   #5
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Relative polarity: yes.

Absolute polarity: highly unlikely outside of specially selected test tones.

The endeavour is also fraught with technical problems to overcome - mainly concerning the design of your speakers and the nature of dual mono speaker systems.

If you want to try, then ABX the fudge out of it and see how far you get
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:17 PM   #6
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IMO a good way to hear the effects of phase shift from an all-pass would be on a kick drum or something with a "punchy" transient. You will notice the transient smearing when its phase is shifted certain amounts.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:24 PM   #7
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The fun thing is that sometimes this phase smearing that folks worry about actually works out as a very transparent form of compression because it redistributes the energy just enough to reduce the actual dynamic range without changing the sound enough to notice.

Broadcast (like radio) processing often includes "phase rotation" which is really just all-pass filters. It is an important part of the "broadcaster voice" thing. Human voices (especially deep male voices) are asymmetrical in nature, and the all-pass smearing makes them much more symmetrical, which keeps you from wasting headroom just because one side of the waveform clips before the other. I actually do this (on top of whatever EQ, usually at least a high pass) on all of my vocals.
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Old 07-15-2017, 02:50 AM   #8
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The fun thing is that sometimes this phase smearing that folks worry about actually works out as a very transparent form of compression because it redistributes the energy just enough to reduce the actual dynamic range without changing the sound enough to notice.

Broadcast (like radio) processing often includes "phase rotation" which is really just all-pass filters. It is an important part of the "broadcaster voice" thing. Human voices (especially deep male voices) are asymmetrical in nature, and the all-pass smearing makes them much more symmetrical, which keeps you from wasting headroom just because one side of the waveform clips before the other. I actually do this (on top of whatever EQ, usually at least a high pass) on all of my vocals.
Yup, I almost ALWAYS all-pass the vocals, as you say, the symmetry helps tremendously with compression on most voices
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:16 AM   #9
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What about training your ear to hear phase? Practical? Useful?

Could you do it by playing with an all-pass filter?
I thunk it's a usefull practical test that can be done in a few different ways.
The most obvious way probably being> make 2 cloned tracks-then nudge 1 track per sample--- the effect becomes more obvious the x amount of samples moved-- the further you go the more it morphs into other effects like__ chorusing/flanging/echoing.
The only differences really with these effects is the amount of time and wether the effects are working per channel or not.
The allpass filter can be used with 2 tracks that null-the shift is the difference then. <depends on the octave/q cut.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:35 PM   #10
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I thunk it's a usefull practical test that can be done in a few different ways.
The most obvious way probably being> make 2 cloned tracks-then nudge 1 track per sample--- the effect becomes more obvious the x amount of samples moved-- the further you go the more it morphs into other effects like__ chorusing/flanging/echoing.
The only differences really with these effects is the amount of time and wether the effects are working per channel or not.
The allpass filter can be used with 2 tracks that null-the shift is the difference then. <depends on the octave/q cut.
That's relative polarity, not absolute polarity.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:54 PM   #11
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Relative polarity: yes.

Absolute polarity: highly unlikely outside of specially selected test tones.
I thought he meant hearing the 'phase' component of an EQ'd signal. Otherwise, I'd potentially call it "hearing phase issues that are a problem" since pretty much everything we hear is a result of phase coloration in some form, good and bad.

Of course usually the one we normally fret about in a mix sounds metallic or hollow and if in stereo, it's usually the wider sounding of the two when flipping polarity - due to center cancellation. As far as absolute polarity, good luck with that one. Maybe 1 Hz @ 200dB SPL, since it would suck your lungs dry, 1 second before exploding them.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:58 PM   #12
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i thought this is about hearing the phase shift of an all-pass filter, not inverting the polarity of a signal...
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:18 AM   #13
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i thought this is about hearing the phase shift of an all-pass filter, not inverting the polarity of a signal...
Mr. PC didn't mention all-pass filters. The conversation has mutated.
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Mr. PC didn't mention all-pass filters.
Sentence #3?
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:41 AM   #15
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Sentence #3?
Derrr...

Though, in fairness, the impression I got was that he's asking if you can train your ears to hear any changes in phase due to filtering, and that perhaps all-pass filters would be the easiest place to start. But the context I was thinking about was in the fundamental range of woodwinds.

I do agree with bezusheist that bass drums are the best place to start if you're trying to attune your ears to phase smearing (or whatever the proper technical term is). But, my answers were also informed by a previous thread by Mr. PC whereby filtering a clarinet resulted in a pretty much 180° phase rotation (sorry if that's not the correct terminology, I'm presuming it wouldn't be a straight polarity inversion as it was the result of filtering).
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:50 AM   #16
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Actually, it looks like I misread more than anyone, even the title is asking about all-pass but I was seeing "how do I learn to hear which frequency is which". That being said, all the questioning etc of smearing, phase and how EQs work should be enough evidence that we don't have to worry about any of that if we can lessen the need for the EQ to begin with aka great tool, but a good source/composition/orchestration is better aka other thread. Can't really get that to net zero but that shouldn't diminish the overall mental goal.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:08 PM   #17
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I think you can train yourself to a certain extent with an all-pass filter, but maybe not as straight forward as "tweak this band to learn the sound."

Years ago I noticed (quite by accident) that certain instruments stood out when I tweaked the graphic equalizer on my parents' stereo system. I didn't know it at the time, but I had stumbled onto a tool for reference track mixing.

These days, if I listen to a reference track, I will use a graphic equalizer with only one frequency set to unity (all others cut as low as possible) to hear if the track had a specific instrument boosted at a certain frequency. This will give a similar effect as the all pass filter in this case. This technique helped me learn which instruments responded to certain frequencies and, as a side effect, I began to appreciate what the frequency spectrum sounded like.

This isn't exactly what the OP asked about, but I think it's relevant.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
i thought this is about hearing the phase shift of an all-pass filter, not inverting the polarity of a signal...
It is-
Aside from the #rampant guff~~~ try as suggested--that will train peoples to hear the differences.
1.Have audio file on track,insert reaeq on the item and delete all bands except 1-which can be the allpass filter--> set to say 1khz,q can stay at default 2.
2.Make a duplicate track of this^(clone)-which should cancel out(null) when 1 track is phase inverted.
3.Flip phase to normal and shift 1 of the eq's frequency up and down the spectrum -if someone cannot train this way then what else is there to>??
4.Try different audio-same set-up..< there's the training.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:09 AM   #19
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Judders is right; I'm looking to improve my hearing, really in all things mixing related, but because I was told that highpassing and EQing in general could harm a signal by altering the phase of certain frequencies, and my own test proved that to be true, I thought it would be useful to be able to better hear these phase changes.

On the other hand, many people are again saying the phase changes aren't a problem, and for the first time I'm hearing they're actually useful, which is interested.

On the other hand, in that last test mentioned with the clarinet, I did notice that the high-pass actually made the clarinet louder, which scared me. Appearently phase smearing can cause certain peaks to line-up and increase the DB (I also saw the size of the waveform increase on the solo clarinet). The scaries part of that is... if highpassing gives me a lounder clarinet, it could cause me to mistakenly think I've improved the sound when I've only made things louder (and many tests have proven that even golden hears will mistake a loudness increase for improved quality).

Of course, hearing absolute phase would be impossible, but would being able to hear phase changes in an acoustic instrument even be useful?
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:26 AM   #20
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Another option to evaluate "phase" is by using an EQ where you can switch between minimum and linear phase modes.
I've done many listening "tests" trying to prove to myself that one type of phase/EQ was better than another (minimum vs linear) and the only thing I could conclude with 100% certainty was that it all depends on the source material and what you are trying to accomplish...
Even when it comes to mid-side EQ...you will hear some say "always use linear phase for M/S EQ " always never always do anything sometimes you want/need the phase shift. I don't know how they have been cutting such nice sounding vinyl for all these years without linear phase EQ, but they have...

Anyways, there is no black/white, only a rainbow of infinite colors (skittles?)
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:04 AM   #21
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Judders is right; I'm looking to improve my hearing, really in all things mixing related, but because I was told that highpassing and EQing in general could harm a signal by altering the phase of certain frequencies, and my own test proved that to be true, I thought it would be useful to be able to better hear these phase changes.

On the other hand, many people are again saying the phase changes aren't a problem, and for the first time I'm hearing they're actually useful, which is interested.

On the other hand, in that last test mentioned with the clarinet, I did notice that the high-pass actually made the clarinet louder, which scared me. Appearently phase smearing can cause certain peaks to line-up and increase the DB (I also saw the size of the waveform increase on the solo clarinet). The scaries part of that is... if highpassing gives me a lounder clarinet, it could cause me to mistakenly think I've improved the sound when I've only made things louder (and many tests have proven that even golden hears will mistake a loudness increase for improved quality).

Of course, hearing absolute phase would be impossible, but would being able to hear phase changes in an acoustic instrument even be useful?
I think it only really matters when you want to preserve as much transient material as possible. I'd be seriously impressed if someone could hear transient smearing on something like a staccato clarinet, or even classical guitar.

The type of filter makes a difference in this - Butterworth is good for not messing with phase, Legendre is good for not creating a ripple at the corner frequency.

Oh, and if you want to exaggerate the effects of a pass filter, copy and paste a few of the same EQ so you're doing the same process a few times in serial. With something like ReaEQ high-pass you should see the smearing and ripple start to appear in the waveform (again, bass drum is a good one to start with).
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:05 AM   #22
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On the other hand, in that last test mentioned with the clarinet, I did notice that the high-pass actually made the clarinet louder, which scared me. Appearently phase smearing can cause certain peaks to line-up and increase the DB (I also saw the size of the waveform increase on the solo clarinet). The scaries part of that is... if highpassing gives me a lounder clarinet, it could cause me to mistakenly think I've improved the sound when I've only made things louder (and many tests have proven that even golden hears will mistake a loudness increase for improved quality).
To add to the confusion...

How does this behavior of minimum phase filters effect the side chain of a compressor ?
The detector will see a phase shifted, level changed version of the waveform and act based upon that...not only does it effect the dynamics differently but the tone as well.
Anyway, I don't use side chain filters so I can't say how much this matters or not in that context, but I thought I'd add some more trivial shit to think about...
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:32 AM   #23
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How does this behavior of minimum phase filters effect the side chain of a compressor ?
The integration that happens in the Attack/Release process makes it a moot point, and that's before we talk about RMS smoothing. A compressor that responds fast enough for phase changes to make a difference is a distortion. Phase changes in the sidechain of that will make a difference and might be interesting.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:39 AM   #24
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I simply don't worry about phase unless it becomes so obviously a problem I can't ignore it.

It has been years since I used a linear phase EQ, and I use parallel processing in every project. For drums I tend to leave high passing until the bus, so that any frequency delay is applied to all channels equally, other than that it rarely enters my head.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:10 PM   #25
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I simply don't worry about phase unless it becomes so obviously a problem I can't ignore it.

It has been years since I used a linear phase EQ, and I use parallel processing in every project. For drums I tend to leave high passing until the bus, so that any frequency delay is applied to all channels equally, other than that it rarely enters my head.









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Old 07-17-2017, 02:18 PM   #26
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Yup, I almost ALWAYS all-pass the vocals, as you say, the symmetry helps tremendously with compression on most voices
thank you for this tip! will be using this for my podcast going forward.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:03 PM   #27
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I'll get me coat...
Ha!
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Old 07-31-2017, 01:55 AM   #28
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Hey, bezusheist, what happened to your post with the audio examples? I was away and couldn't listen to them.
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Old 07-31-2017, 02:11 AM   #29
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Hey, bezusheist, what happened to your post with the audio examples? I was away and couldn't listen to them.
well...i was having some doubts about it...but i will re-post anyways because i am interested to see who can hear a difference...i have a feeling it has to do with "monitoring"...

these are the same files, only the polarity is inverted on one copy.
i hear a big difference in the sound of the two...but i shouldn't, because they null...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mgc5evw60b...ormal.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/16b922upr2...erted.wav?dl=0
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:56 AM   #30
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Yeah, they sound the same to me.
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:03 AM   #31
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http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:06 AM   #32
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100% Correct!

...only kidding, it was totally random
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:05 AM   #33
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100% Correct!

...only kidding, it was totally random
I like that site but one problem I have is the audio sample they use for hearing bit depth, has so little DR, that the bit depth is irrelevant.
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:36 PM   #34
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Yeah, they sound the same to me.
did you try on monitors and/or headphones ?

i hear a big difference on headphones, no difference from the monitors...
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:49 PM   #35
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did you try on monitors and/or headphones ?

i hear a big difference on headphones, no difference from the monitors...
Just monitors. I'll try headphones and report back...
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:09 PM   #36
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Just monitors. I'll try headphones and report back...

Monitors for weight-headdies for detail=)
Phase is a curious beasty.
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:23 PM   #37
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Quote:
did you try on monitors and/or headphones ?

i hear a big difference on headphones, no difference from the monitors...
Monitors are not really great for inspecting phase-headphones I find much better- as it seperates quite clearly.
There is a visual difference even in 2 side_by_side browser tabs of that uploaded audio.
The inverted version 'seems' to have less attack-more sustain visually.
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:38 PM   #38
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There is a visual difference even in 2 side_by_side browser tabs of that uploaded audio.
The inverted version 'seems' to have less attack-more sustain visually.
Yeah, through headphones that appears to be the case.

Interesting that they null completely...
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:49 PM   #39
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Yeah, through headphones that appears to be the case.

Interesting that they null completely...
Strange stuff...i thought I was going crazy because one minute I heard a difference (in headphones) and then later didn't hear a difference (monitors).
I wonder if it has something to do with the way headphones work or our ears work? Or both.

Now I feel bad for telling people they are crazy for hearing a difference between two files that null...
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:32 PM   #40
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Strange stuff...i thought I was going crazy because one minute I heard a difference (in headphones) and then later didn't hear a difference (monitors).
I wonder if it has something to do with the way headphones work or our ears work? Or both.

Now I feel bad for telling people they are crazy for hearing a difference between two files that null...
I just fell down a rabbit hole that made my brain hurt

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,28925.0.html

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/courses/spsci/AUDL4007/12.pdf

Something to do with inner hair cells, neurotransmitters and half-wave rectification. Read from page 277 in the PDF: "Transduction by the inner hair cells".
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